Working online with a buddy of mine in Idaho who has a manufacturers permit. It seems some of his local PD customers have expressed an interest in a 12-guage the size and general layout of their sub-guns. I had been talking with him for some time about different things I was thinking about doing with my Saiga-12, and it came to me the other night that a Krinkov-style Saiga-12 might be exactly what his clientel is looking for. He's in Montana on vacation for the next three weeks, so I cant ask these questions of him- so here they go:

Anyone know the minimum barrel leignth for something like an S-12 to still cycle reliably? With a Saiga-12C LEO-Only type, I was thinking of bringing the barrel back to 10 inches and fitting a "K" grip and tac-light to the fore-end, as well as an AK recoil buffer and recoil pad to absorb the shock of a light-12.

My seciond question would be, I know there was a ban in the mid-80s by Papa Bush on new Civilian consumption Machineguns, but what about short barrled shotguns? Would it be possible to go around the AWB and produce a new Class III SBS with a milspec Saiga folding stock and pistol-grip?

If this project ends up going to at least prototype form, and hopefully production, I'd like to keep one example of my design work for shits and giggles...

Any help would be appriciated.

I'm no lawyer, but I'll give this a shot.  I do not believe you can have a folding stock.  If this follows the general AWB, no folder is possible ( L.E. excepted of course )  If you build it as a SBS, I think you can set it up for any mag you want, so that's not a problem.  Barrel length for correct function is a question of how much distance there is between the barrel end and the gas block.  I can only suggest you wack off a little piece at a time and as the function fails, start opening the gas block a # drill size at a time.  You are on new ground here and you will have to methodicaly sort this out one step at a time. Remember, it has to be regestered with the ATF as a short barrel shotgun (which still can be done)  BEFORE   you start shortening the barrel.  If it is regestered, you don't have to worry about the USA parts count. You can't get "around" the AWB, or we all would be doing it. Perhaps you might have a folding stock if you skipped the pistol grip.  You can only have two evil features. The evil features are: pistol grips, flash hiders, bayo lugs, Hi-cap mags, folding stocks, on a semi-auto gun. Best of luck. Keep in touch here and let us know what you find.

Awesome info MG, thanks a bunch. I'm not in a class III state and although we do have a FEW provisions (silencers are leagal) I'm not sure about a SBS. I dont plan on undertaking any of the cutting, I'm just designing it and working on some parts and accessories, plus footing the bill for the prototype...so we'll see.

The gas plug on my Saiga 12 is variable so I'll think I might be OK with it open all the way.

One CANNOT skirt the AWB when building an NFA weapon, the exception being a machine gun. All others (SBR, SBS) still fit the definition of "firearm" for the purposes of the AW ban. Thus, a post-ban Saiga SBS must still comply with the AWB, and therefore cannot have a pistol grip or folding stock. Once the ban goes away, this will change. If your buddy the Class II mfr. is building the gun for LE only, that's a different matter entirely.

mg34ss:
Your AWB "Evil Features" list for shotguns is a bit off. It's different for shotguns than for rifles (if it was the same, the Saiga-12 could be pistol-gripped). A prohibited "assault shotgun" is a semi-auto shotgun with at least two of the following:
* ability to accept a detachable mag
* fixed mag cap in excess of 5 rounds
* pistol grip
* folding or collapsing stock

The commercial Saiga-12 has a detachable mag as its only allowable feature. Adding a pistol grip and/or a folding stock is a federal no-no for lowly citizens.

Thank you for the correction Shooter.  I just don't spend any time working with shotguns and it's been too long since I checked those regulations.

Quoted: One CANNOT skirt the AWB when building an NFA weapon, the exception being a machine gun.

An AOW (which is also NFA) does NOT have to follow the AWB.  John Q Public can build an AOW using a virgin receiver and have all the AW features.  An AOW can not have a buttstock and must have a foregrip not parallel to the bore.  Note that a metal tube sticking out the back of the receiver is not considered a buttstock as it was not designed to be used on the shoulder.  Have seen quite a few AR/AK AOWs built on Form 1s, an AOW shotgun should be no different.