Greetings all, I am new here, learning a lot from the fantastic posts and insights all have, thank you.  I have read every maintenance and cleaning thread I could find here (many with dead end links); I 100% respect the have done it for 30 years without an issue, etc.  That is not the point for me, my question was / is, what advancements have been made, specifically with synthetic lubricants and which one do I want to use on my new AR15.  I decided to do some internet research and stumbled across MIL-COMM TW25B and MC25 (mil-comm.com), anyone have experience with these, seems like the real deal?

Back story (apologize it is so long, but figure it might help the next guy doing what I am doing):  I just purchased a Colt LE6920 Magpul (LE6920MPS-B) from Bud's, fantastic experience, just arrived yesterday.  I am working on a project and need to get familiar with this platform, did a boat-load of research on which AR, and went with the "baseline" AR to start (I have a feeling, first of many AR's for me).  Anyways, I have been reading a lot about CLP (Cleaning, Lubrication, Protection) products here, it did not make a lot of sense you can "clean" with the same product you "lubricate" with from my car hobby, motorcycle hobby and especially from snowmobiles (which are wet all the time). I learned quick with sleds, waterproof synthetic grease after a separate cleaning works.  Made me even more curious about all-in-one CLPs... Anyways, I needed to clean my LE to remove the shipping oils and purchased an AR15/M4 KleenBore field cleaning kit that came with a mil spec sectional cleaning rod (sections line up smooth and tight), two brushes, 0.5 oz of Break Free CLP and some patches in a small pouch that will fit in my new hard case.

[I have a 2000 character limit so continued in next post]

I figured I would start with this while I researched a larger bench cleaning kit and learned more about CLP, C, LP products (damn, there were hundreds of them on the shelf at The Kittery Trading Post, Maine).   I did pick up a tin with OTIS MC-10 C and LP separate products on my way out, their "science" on the tin tracked with the idea C is not part of LP.  Read about PFC LP, that claims to keep steel rust free for 12+ weeks when the "leading CLP" lasted 72 hours!  Wow, lots of opinions!

Anyways, cleaned things up with the Break Free CLP, tried that first, worked great, no surprises but did not see much of a residue left on the gun.  Did some more research as many threads here talk about "advancements" in C, L, P products but did not read much about what advancements.  Searched on "C LP vs CLP" and hit pay dirt, found this article (https://mil-comm.com/gun-cleaning/the-problem-with-clp-type-gun-lubricants/) that appears to confirm my gut sled experience feelings.   Clearly they are trying to sell their solution, but I was impressed with their science and the fact they serve five hard core industrial verticals, including Warfighters on the ground; wondering if we have any boots on the ground experience with their products here, two steps works for me, not really looking for a four step process.  They also have a fantastic AR15 "application guide" if I can ever figure out how to upload pictures and files on this site!

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THE PROBLEM WITH "CLP-TYPE" GUN LUBRICANTS
May 28, 2019|In Gun Cleaning, Guns, Lubricants

You remember what your mother or father once told you: if it looks too good to be true, it probably is…  Which today, ladies and gentlemen, leads us to opine on the value of so-called, “CLP” gun treatments. The letters C-L-P stand for, “Clean,” “Lubricate” and “Protect.” Meaning that one whiz-bang application of some “CLP stuff” will satisfy all your gun cleaning needs in one easy step.  Splash some “CLP lube” onto your firearms parts, and, bang, you’re done. It would be nice if life were that easy.  Here’s the problem — and you don’t need a degree in tribology (the study of friction) to figure this out for yourself. “CLP” gun lubes are simply trying to do too much. Actually, they are trying to do the impossible in terms of gun cleaning (and practical chemistry).

Problem #1: The “C” attacks the “L” and “P”

In “CLP” formulations, there are chemical components that are engineered to do the “C” part — the gun Cleaning part — while the “L” and “P” parts of the formula are trying to Lubricate and Protect. But the “C” part of the formula doesn’t know when to STOP cleaning. Oh, it does clean some, maybe even much, of the debris and fouling you want to remove from your dirty firearm — but then the “C” molecules keep right on cleaning. They actually attack their own brothers-in-arms, the “L” and “P” foot soldiers that are formulated and packaged together with the “C” soldiers.  It’s our considered opinion that the exclusive use of “CLP” products on firearms is akin to a dog chasing its own tail.

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Problem #2: Your guns will jam more often and fire fewer rounds

While “CLP” lubes may prove to be adequate in clearing guns that have jammed – it’s also true guns will tend to jam more often and fire fewer rounds if they are treated solely with “CLP” liquids in all maintenance events.  That’s because “CLP” gun oil cleans/flushes a lot better than it lubricates or protects, so you are always starting with a less than optimal lubrication treatment of a gun right from the start. (A dumbing down of all three desired gun cleaning actions for the sake of selling an “all-in-one” formula).

Problem #3: CLP lubes act as a debris magnet

Now add to that the well-known behavior of oil on gun parts as a debris magnet, attracting sand, dirt, dust and debris, and it becomes pretty obvious that “CLP” type products used at the very outset help create future incidences of stoppages and firearms failure.  Locksmiths learned this a long time ago — lubricate a lock mechanism with an oily lube and the lube itself immediately becomes a debris magnet, causing lock mechanisms to gum up, clog and stop working … a direct parallel to “CLP” type formulas’ effect on gun parts.

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Our Recommend Solution: TW25B Gun Grease paired with MC25 Cleaner and Degreaser

There is a reason that one of the world’s most valued, precision-engineered, volume-made pistols – SIG SAUER – are made with synthetic grease during the assembly of tightly-fitted, heavy wear gun parts.  Experience has proven that firearms that have a preliminary treatment with synthetic grease (TW25B® to be exact) perform more reliably, with less frequent maintenance than firearms treated with inferior lubricants.  What we’re saying is simple. If you’re serious about getting optimal performance from your firearms, separate the “C” work from the “L-P” work. Clean the gun well with one of the more newly formulated enzymatic gun cleaners … focus first on preparing metal surfaces properly for the follow-on work — the lubricating and protecting part. Gun cleaners like MIL-COMM’s MC25 and more aggressive MC50 out-clean any “CLP” type formulation. Then get the “Lubricate” and “Protect” part right by polishing a synthetic, light grease into the metal wear parts (slides, rails, etc) and the bore. Synthetic light grease like TW25B hangs around metal parts a lot longer than gun oil, and MIL-COMM grease will actually repel sand, dirt, dust and firing debris.
Is it worth touching your guns twice? Separating the “C” from the “L-P” work? Cleaning first, then lubricating? Well, the resulting benefits to you include:

Fewer stoppages
More “fire-ready” reliability
Extended life of gun parts
Six to ten times more rounds fired between cleaning
Increased muzzle velocity
A more accurate round

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Our synthetic light grease applied to the bore smooths out the microscopic imperfections of the bore-metal and creates a more perfect trajectory.  Cleaning and lubricating your gun in separate steps will actually prove to be a time-saver for you, because doing the maintenance in that sequence will absolutely, positively give you a lot more shooting with a lot less cleaning.  What else did Dad always say? No such thing as a free lunch!

[Last post, figured others might want to read the entire article too...]

Link to PDF M16 Rifle Suggested Lubrication Practices:  https://mil-comm.com/how-to/m16.pdf
Link to video MIL COMM TW25B Toss Your Gun Oils Aside!!:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gY-zdRUuhA0

- Interesting, hoping there is some real experience with these products here on the AR platform.

I've switched over to using only Milcom products. They're safe, effective, easy, and don't make my house reek like solvent. In addition, the TWB-25 grease stays where it should and doesnt "evaporate" like a light film of oil does in the extremely dry environment here.

Thanks for the reply, what is your process, which products, cleaner, oil and grease?

Clean metal surfaces that are heavily caked in carbon with MC50 bore cleaner, including the barrel. Any plastic parts get cleaned with MC25. Then, any surfaces that see a lot of metal-on-metal contact get lubed with TWB25. Lastly, any other exposed metal surfaces get a light coat of MC2500. It's basically just 4 products:

MC50 - "extreme" duty bore cleaner
MC25 - "lighter" duty enzymatic cleaner
MC2500 - synthetic oil, spreadable
TWB25 - synthetic grease

I also like the fact that their products are non-toxic. If one of my animals decides they want to eat a napkin k had been using or something like that, it's generally not a concern. With grease like Aeroshell, it's definitely not good. I also apply some of the products with a finger and simply wash my hands afterward.

I think I lucked out with my "CLP vs C LP" search!  Thanks, how many rounds have you put through your AR with MC products?

To be fair, only one of my ARs has seen the complete MC treatment - hoping to clean all of them today. I've probably put 500rd through it so far and it's still very slick. It's always interesting to see how things work out in the desert here - Safariland CLP and Hoppes oil look great but are completely missing after a range trip or two.

My G34 and G19 have both been treated completely. The G34 has probably seen 1000+ rds of my reloads (Titegroup/coated bullet). I probably cleaned it at around the 600rd mark and couldn't believe how easy it was. All the surfaces that collect carbon seemed to be collecting less than normal and what was there came off very easily. Still, the gun was well lubed and operated very smoothly.

I'll continue to evaluate usefulness. So far they seem like the best choice of lubricants for dry climates.

Been using milcomm for several years, and the problem is that the PTFE particles migrate together and form clumps. I think PTFE in general is something you really don't want in your guns.

Nowadays I only use Ballistol. It works, it's non toxic, and it smells like licorice. It's also a CLP, so it's all you need. No crazy system with ten different components and two dozen steps.

By PTFE, you mean Teflon particles, correct?  Where do they migrate from and to and clump?  Is this with both the MC2500 oil and the MCTWB25 grease or just with one of them?  One of the videos I watched talked about MC containing Teflon like the original Slick50" from back in the 80's before DuPont had to change the formula.  I have not heard about any clumping complaints so want to understand exactly what you are reporting.  Thanks.

AK, have you seen "clumping" like 6G's is reporting?

Found a post here on PTFE: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Has_anyone_seen_damage_____/7-232886/
Had to "..." to stay under 2000 chars.
Posted 4/13/2005 5:25:28 AM EDT
I used Break Free with its teflon in my bores for almost 15 years…. and since have used the Mil-comm MC-2500 oil as well in the same weapons with its even higher PTFE content.  I have yet to see any PTFE acid induced damage, the mystical accuracy issue or the PTFE gumming or clumping up in parts that is said to happen.  Like Ive said before Im neither pro or con PTFE. I do see some of the points made by the anti PTFE folks, but I also think its an over blown topic. If it was a problem I think we would have seen evidence of such long before now.  The only barrel damage I have had in my 25 years of shooting is due to normal wear from firing. Ive shot the lead out of two barrels. Not ruined mind you just beyond the accuracy I needed of the barrel with medium and magnum calibers…  Im not concerned one bit about the PTFE's acid formation.  And if we are talking chromed lined barrels like in the AR the topic is even of less interest.  I talked with Don Yoder at Break Free in length about this back about five years ago in my benchrest days. He assured me that what is being said on the topic is well over blown… He said that the PTFE actually burns at 1% per hour at 900F.His recommendation was to keep the weapon below that temp for sustained operation. Which is a given really since stuff would be melting off the weapon.  Mr.Yoder said that the inhibitors used in the formula remains even is the oil component is burned away which will prevent and acid induced damage or corrosion in either case. Mil-comm recommends to keep the weapon operational temp below 600F for extended periods...The Mil-comm also uses inhibitors in the mix. But if the lube fails due to heat it fails its function regardless and needs to be replaced with a fresh application. And that goes for any lubricant.

If you have a tube of milcomm and let it sit for a few months it will clump. The Teflon particles migrate together and stick, forming clumps. The oil version especially will get "chunky" after a while.

Did you experience the same after applied to the gun or just in the bottles?

Well I don't use giant gobs of it, but yea, the same thing is happening on a smaller scale.

More reading, never heard of Gun/Wiki but has what appears to be an unbiased summary of many lubricants:  http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/InDepthLubricantInfo

TW-25B (by Mil-Comm)
As a synthetic oil, TW-25B will separate and should be shaken or stirred before use. This isn't that big a deal; you have to shake/stir CLP too. TW-25B is also a pure lubricant, without powder solvent capability. It's been recommended as a magazine lubricant, as it's a dry lube and won't attract grime. It's been approved by the US military to lubricate a wide array of weapon systems, as indicated on the 'military' page at http://www.mil-comm.com/. Their site layout may change and break the direct link, hence I've included a link to the top of their site as well. TW-25B may or may not be the sole approved lubricant for these systems, but at the very least it is an approved lubricant for each system.

Teflon: Teflon is a form of Polytetrafluoroethylene, which is also used as a "non-stick coating" for cookwares.
Precipitation: When suspended in any lubricant, over time it will settle out. This isn't a big problem; just shake or stir it to re-mix it, then spray or otherwise apply it to your weapon.
Evaporation: Starting at 260 degrees, teflon begins to emit fumes which can kill birds. It is generally marketed as 'safe for humans' provided that the temperatures do not exceed 500 degrees. However, at 680 degrees, large volumes of toxic fumes are emitted. Polytetrafluoroethylene poisoning exhibits itself as "flu-like symptoms"... a fever, headache, chills, backache, etc. It is also worth noting that heated teflon will 'clump' at a certain temperature.

Remind me to throw away my non stick pans...

Lol, ONLY use stainless steel pots and pans!   You always thought the black flakes in your eggs were pepper... think again!  You are super lubricated now.

Why does this thread feel like an advertisement...

I mean, really, who post all the literature from a webpage trying to sell it? Word for word??

I posted what I found (word for word) because I didn't find it posted anywhere else and it seemed spot on to my questions, that's all... Didn't mean to offend anyone by posting what I read and was asking for experiences with the products, good, bad and ugly.   I am in a learning mode and hoped it might be of interest to the others that have asked the same questions.  After reading a lot of cleaning threads here seems like there is still quite a bit of uncertainty.  I have zero affiliation with anyone in the gun business let alone anyone in the gun cleaning products business.   Simply looking for the best products to start out with and was shocked to see hundreds of products at the trading post!   I am interested in your opinion as well... What do you use?   Any opinion on MC?

I use Hoppes #9 to clean and Wilson Combat grease to lube

my non stick pans are cast iron.

A man after my own heart... most people don't understand that cast iron cookware never has to be washed (no "C"), it only has to have boiling water on it and lightly rinse it off!   Simple is best... so considering this was a question about MC, have you any opinions on it and or what do you use?

Thanks for commenting, this thread is all about gathering more than opinion, but the "why"... we all have our systems, which does not mean any one's is bad, it just is.  I am interested in learning more as you have a two step, C and LP system, what made you go two step and why did you select Wilson Combat grease, that is a new product to me?

Added after google of "Wilson Combat Grease":  https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1070293382

Wilson Combat Ultima-Lube II is a blend of petroleum and synthetic lubricants specially formulated to insure optimal performance of any firearm and inhibit wear. The unique blend of lubricating fluids has proven ideal for today's high-tech semi-auto weapons, whether manufactured of conventional steels, aluminum alloys or stainless steel. In addition, we have found nothing superior to Ultima-Lube II for the proper lubrication and protection of the hand-fit custom firearms that Wilson Combat is known for.

Looks like another possible bullseye from the reviews.  How does it work for you?  I am not seeing Teflon (although we like it on our eggs) so maybe this is another step in the right direction!?

Well I switched up a lot over the years.

One thing I never changed is using JB Bore Paste. I been using this to clean out copper and carbon build up for years and really liked it. I would first get as much dirt off as I can then use the paste to do the finishing touches. I would follow up with whatever flavor below to clean it out of the barrel or whatever carbon fouled item I have. I also use Boretech which I thought was great and for a little while used Iosso but hated it.

12 years - Breakfree CLP with automotive grease. Really liked this but Breakfree switched their formula and I never liked the new stuff. I bought a lot of CLP back in early 2000s and been using it until it dried up. When I used the newest Breakfree, it did not clean as well as I thought. Automotive grease is the best thing I ever used as a lube and I use it for pistols, ARs, and anything else. Storage always worked. When I began searching for a new product, the storage portion is what always got me to switch to a newer product. I have an unwritten rule that I shouldn't have to clean a firearm after pulling out of storage to shoot it. Just in case I ever have a spontaneous range trip idea. I feel I should clean it once and be able to shoot it the next time.

1 year - I went through a period of using Froglube and their degreaser. The dark ages, I say because I thought this stuff was magic for a long time. Froglube was wonderful to me when followed instructions. Even after following instructions, my gun would lock up. I stopped using it one day after pulling out a rifle that I had to mortar into the ground to unlock. Also it was stupid because I had a hair blow dryer and paint brushes. I went to another dark ages and bought Fireclean. Again thought it was magic until one day I had a carbon fouled gun so bad that I had to use a rod as a chisel.

Thought about just f it and go back to using Breakfree CLP and automotive grease.

5 years - Then I discovered.... Milcomm TW25b, MC25 degreaser, and their oil. I thought this stuff was so great, and still to this day would recommend it to anyone. It's the only thing I can go with 1000 rounds range session and not have a failure (on reason I stopped at 1k is because that's all I could buy at the moment, I'm sure it would have worked even longer). Great, great stuff.

However, I felt it didn't quite work as well as I wanted to in storage. Also the grease would separate in the jar but it was easy to mix back together. After storing a firearm for months, I would find the grease evaporated but it is still functional enough to go shoot. So I thought it was alright, for the most part.

1.5 years - I thought milcomm was great, but then I discovered Tetra grease and their triple action liquid. Right now I am really, really liking this stuff. It stays wet and I even had used up to 1.5k session at a class once. A person even asked me how I was able to shoot still with a AR15 when everyone else seemed to have to clean out their weapon. I explained I had Tetra grease. Two others had tw25b grease and one dude had Slipp2000 that seems to work really well as well.

I really like Tetra stuff in storage and believe I found a good formula. I have a pistol that I cleaned last Christmas and the rails are still wet with the tetra I put on it. I am impressed and feel it is the same quality as it was back when I was using automotive grease with CLP back in the early days.

Thanks for the insights and details, exactly what I was hoping to hear, this was really helpful to me and I hope to others.  Another new name, Tetra, I will have to check it out, is Tetra a CLP or an LP grease only?  I do think companies like milcomm and perhaps Tetra have moved the goal post but I also believe Breakfree CLP (and other tried and true systems) simply work and often simple is good enough, so it is a worthy path too.  I am looking for exceptional, so like the idea of products like Tetra and milcomm.  Thanks again for the details, I hope is helps all that read this thread, that is what it is all about.

Clean parts and barrel with Gunzilla. Lube and Protect withTW25B in the tubes. Tried the spray, it was lame. I have never had any "clumping" problems. After extended, couple hundred round range sessions, the grease is still where I put it and ready for 100's more. I could get by just wiping the old off and reapplying, but the old jarhead in me has to clean a firearm back to like new. I use it on all my AR's, Glock's and revolvers with no issues.

TW25b AND tettra grease are about the same in my use. Both work well 1911, AR, 870
ezzox best dam rust prevent i've found for blued guns.
Weapons Shield my goto CLP.
Automotive grease Li based, and syn motor oil, Cheap and works
Break free CLP, the baseline everyone uses.

I have used TW25 in combat. It works well, and I do like it, but......I do not like having to clean with one thing and then lube with another, and the cleaning solution from Milcomm didn't seem to clean all that well. CLP I have also used in combat and it work too, both new and old formula. The old formula cleaned better and I never experienced any failures using it either old or new....EVER.

All that being said, like the gentleman above I too am now using Ballistol for everything, and it just works and works well. I don't think I will ever get the chance to try it on a 2 way range, but for my periodic shooting it lubes well, cleans super easily and it's skin safe. Just don't put it in a plastic bottle or it will smell like dirty feet.

Thank you for your service as well as your feedback.  I am not familiar with Gunzilla, will have to check that out.  Seems like a pattern, the TW25B becomes part of a solution with other products added in, exactly what I hoped to uncover.  My CaseClub arrived today, looks fantastic and MC products shipped as well.  It made sense that a synthetic grease would be the way to go from sled experience.  Thanks again for sharing your experience and preferences.

So you use TW25b and trettra as well or the auto grease (Li based) and motor oil.  I know these advanced oils for cars / sleds work too but figure if with how little we actually use on an AR15, $10 here and there is ok.  Thanks for info, i have never heard of ezzox, will have to check it out.

Same, my shooting will be periodic but regular.  I prefer not to find myself on a 2 way range either but travel to N and W Africa on a regular basis so better to have knowledge... interesting on the dirty feet smell, i have heard Ballistol has an acquired smell if you are referring to that product.  Thanks for sharing.

It's funny how Ballistol strikes everyone differently. I keep it in plastic, and I've never noticed that it makes it smell any different.

It is different for everyone. I am the guy that likes the smell of Ballistol but hates the smell of Eezox. To me, Ballistol smells like fresh anise (black licorice) and Eezox smells like a urinal puck.

Ballistol moisturizes skin, disinfects cuts and does not bother my sinuses. Eezox stings in cuts, irritates my skin, burns my sinuses and makes me feel spacey and high after using it; yet others report the exact opposite happening.

I feel pretty good about Ballistol. I'm probably overly paranoid about avoiding carcinogens, but man you have to be these days. The shit they're putting in our food and water is bad enough without adding unnecessary chemicals into your daily routine.

Ballistol checks a lot of boxes. It's a CLP/3 in 1 oil, so it's super easy. It works. There are obviously better lubricants, but I would wager it's as good as any other CLP out there. It's inexpensive. It's non toxic, allegedly to the point you could drink it. And you can mix it with water to clean corrosive ammo residue and even black powder, and even use it as a cutting fluid in the shop. Not to mention lubricate all your household items with it, too. One can of Ballistol replaces literally all of the oils and gun cleaning products in your entire house.

I do like Ballistol as well - smells exactly as you describe, like anise. I really like it as a simple cleaner - spray the ballistol on first to get most of the gunk off, then finish up with the more expensive Milcomm products. Also works well as a simple oil to protect against rust, but I've found that it "evaporates" quickly like all other organic oils when it hits 100+ degrees in the desert.

Point is just about any lube works, iirc even KY will work.  How much and how often is the key.

Yea but your range buddies stop answering your calls after they see a bottle of it in your range bag.

It could be the particular bottle I used. I have the large can at home and a smaller can at work for keeping my tools rust free. The small can smells more mild than the big can I have here at the house.

Aerosol or non aerosol? I've only ever used the non aerosol version. It's a lot cheaper that way when you buy it in the big bottles, then you can divide it up as necessary.

Non-aerosol. Prefer the regular oil myself.

We used TW25 grease on our 20MM cannons which went from sea level to over 30,000 feet and pulled 9G's and we never had issues with them, you only need a small amount of that grease so if you are slathering it you are throwing money away.

It seems like TW25, applied with the correct "condition" (how heavy per the instructions link I posted earlier) never fails.   It may get a little clumpy in the bottle or tube (settles) but I plan to shake it and kneed it and see what happens.  I hear the same and a few new favorite brands too that people use have had good success with which is ok too.  I suspect only a few are really burning through the qty of ammo to make a difference.   All the same, like on my sled, I tested a few then settled on Amsoil waterproof synthetic grease, it does feel smoother and never failed me.   I should see my MC products by the weekend and will post a first impression.   Good to hear all the opinions.

all you need is tw25b, you can make the mil-comm oil with 90% alcohol  iirc.

It's just a lubrication/protection grease, as with almost every grease I know. I don't know of any sort of grease that sells itself as a cleaner as well.

You can't go wrong either way.

You don't need a whole lot of grease on an AR15 or pistol, or pretty much anything else. Typically a pistol only needs the rail and barrel with a light dab of grease. An ar15 only needs 7 points of grease: the 4 rails of the carrier, the bolt center raised part, the trigger surface, where it rides the carrier, and the cam pin. The cam pin is the only thing that needs to be heavily greased on the ar15. I'm only talking about dabs of grease and spreading it around with an applicator or small brush. If you put it on really thick or a lot of it oozes out then you put on too much. For tw25b, if you see any white, you put on too much.

A 8oz jar of tw25b or a 16 oz jar of tetra would probably last you years, if not decades.

Agree, grease is not a cleaner but will "clean" if you rub hard enough as you mix it with other old grease!   A good friend of mine, ex seal, said they were trained to run 'em wet, they never fail, which is likely why people over lube... as I am learning. My MC products should arrive tomorrow,  ironic, Colt stopped civilian AR15 sales today, I think I snuck in under the line!   Been thinking about an LE for years, feel fortunate, will have mine forever now... Thanks for the insights.

Let us know how it goes for you. I agree about Colt's. I always wanted the Colt lower that Brownells sold. One day I heard they switched the serial prefix so I ordered two right away. I had a gut feeling they weren't going to sell them anymore and decided to buy two. A few months after, Brownells stopped selling them because Colt didn't make them anymore for "legal concerns."