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Posted: 6/27/2018 12:35:11 AM EDT
@FluffyTheCat
Fluffy, as we all know, is a genius and a Garand fanatic. He's also on AR-15.com for a reason. The AR is severely restricted in Canada, and it's even more difficult to build one there b/c you're shivering so badly. He called me tonight to discuss an idea. He's followed the Flat Spot lowers threads, but he doesn't weld. He could braze, but he already solders. What if Flat Spot lowers were cut from brass sheet rather than mild steel? Clamp it up, heat it with a propane torch, weep in solder, and you're done. I've emailed the Flat Spot to ask that very question, if they could do a sheet of brass lower flats, and ordered 2 more lowers to have on hand and answer any questions we might have about the flats themselves. (Update - the Flat Spot won't do a run of brass flats.) What questions do you have? Suggestions? Issues? (Other than it'll be really heavy & beautiful). https://www.theflatspot.net/ar-lower-flat.html 
Previous ARFCOM build threads: https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Steel-AR-flats-from-the-Flat-Spot/4-647105/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-I-welded-together-a-steel-receiver-from-theflatspot-net-Update-6-11-Paint-Job-on-page-3/4-648352/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Backbencher-s-Wedding-Giveaway-Build-update-5-4/4-712979/ |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 1:05:14 AM EDT
[#1]
Is there a reason the steel flats could not be silver soldered?
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Posted: 6/27/2018 1:19:10 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is there a reason the steel flats could not be silver soldered? Silver solder requires a good bit more heat than lead solder, however, and while brass might be more expensive than mild steel, not only would it look slick as hell, it might be even easier to put together. |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 2:13:21 AM EDT
[#3]
Tag. This interests me as well.
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Posted: 6/27/2018 2:50:14 AM EDT
[#4]
Tagged.
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Posted: 6/27/2018 7:52:23 AM EDT
[#5]
Why not aluminum? 6061 would work, and he can braze it.
Just an idea.... |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 10:13:24 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why not aluminum? 6061 would work, and he can braze it.
Just an idea.... Can steel be soldered? He's wanting to cut the buffer tube threads w/ a tap, so doing that in brass would be easier than cutting em in steel. |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 11:30:19 AM EDT
[#7]
Steel cannot be soldered. Steel has to be welded or brazed
An aluminum receiver has to be anodized which requires dangerous acid. Steel has to be welded or brazed. Welding requires skill and brazing works at high temperatures. Solding copper or brass is a piece of cake. And a brass receiver would not need to be anodized, parkerized or blued. Check out the soldering video.  How to Solder Copper Pipe The CORRECT Way | GOT2LEARN |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 11:54:48 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Steel cannot be soldered. Steel has to be welded or brazed |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 12:54:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Steel CAN be Silver Soldered. It’s fairly easy especially if you use Silver Solder paste which has the Silver Solder ground up and the flux mixed together. Its what I use for permanently attaching muzzle devices on barrels less than 16”. |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 1:56:49 PM EDT
[#10]
It depends, there are low temperature (400 degrees) Silver Solders.
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Posted: 6/27/2018 2:13:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It depends, there are low temperature (400 degrees) Silver Solders. |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 2:18:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Please tell us more about them. Advantages and disadvantages? 1 - coat interior surfaces with flux and solder; clamp lower together 2 - preheat oven to 420 degrees F 3 - bake lower for 30 minutes; remove 4 - stir ammunition, sprinkle into magazine |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 3:18:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The steel flats can, and have been brazed as is. Fluffy would like to solder brass ones. I haven't heard back from the Flat Spot, but it's early. Can steel be soldered? He's wanting to cut the buffer tube threads w/ a tap, so doing that in brass would be easier than cutting em in steel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Why not aluminum? 6061 would work, and he can braze it.
Just an idea.... Can steel be soldered? He's wanting to cut the buffer tube threads w/ a tap, so doing that in brass would be easier than cutting em in steel. And steel can be soldered. SOLDERING STEEL From the link above: "Soldering the Steel Solder is usually sold as a wire or rod, and melts when it touches the heated metal. Heat the metal, and then apply the solder when the flux bubbles and turns brown. If the flux turns black, let the area cool, clean it, and start over. If you are using a torch, hold the tip four to six inches away from the parent metal. If it is necessary to apply the flame directly to the solder or flux, pull the torch tip back even farther from the work surface and keep it moving. If you heat the solder directly, it may become too hot and won't attach to the metal. If you need another layer of solder, let the first layer cool slightly, add more flux, and then reheat the metal. Finally, let the piece cool and remove the excess flux with warm water and a steel wire brush." |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 3:21:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: >while brass might be more expensive than mild steel, not only would it look slick as hell, it might be even easier to put together. I can only think back to the brass 10/22 receiver that I linked awhile back, thinking maybe it spawned this interest? 
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Posted: 6/27/2018 3:32:17 PM EDT
[#15]
You can solder steel, you have to use acid flux and more heat but not silver solder temps. ( think Autobody before bondo for an example, and in shop class 35 years ago I soldered an aux fuel tank for my motorcycle made from sheet metal (steel) . and many tanks at the time were sealed by solder. )
You would want to tin both surfaces to be joined and then join them and heat letting the Tinned parts melt together. Is it the best option for a flat spot lower, No I don't think so. nor would I trust it on a brass one. (standard lead tin or just tin solder. ) I would want some silver for the strength, in lower % the temp is still manageable, and it is stronger than lead tin. https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/01/nyregion/home-clinic-the-hows-and-whys-of-soldering-metal-together.html |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 3:56:34 PM EDT
[#16]
one issue is there are different "hardness" of solder that melt at different temperatures
you need to work from hard to soft so the heat from step 5 does not unsolder step 2 |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 4:03:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Using tinning solder would work great for that
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Posted: 6/27/2018 6:04:12 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
An aluminum receiver has to be anodized which requires dangerous acid. |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 6:29:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’ve heard uppers need the anodizing for the wear surfaces that the BCG rides on, but wonder why aluminum lowers need it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
An aluminum receiver has to be anodized which requires dangerous acid. Gun-Kote will work. Not as well as good anodizing, but it will work. |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 7:11:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Drill holes in them, tap them and bolt them together?
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Posted: 6/27/2018 8:09:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I’ve heard uppers need the anodizing for the wear surfaces that the BCG rides on, but wonder why aluminum lowers need it. |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 9:46:16 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you shoot enough you’ll wear through the anodizing. |
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Posted: 6/27/2018 11:10:03 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you’re saying it’s not a necessity anywhere? Plastic, wooden, brass, and steel lowers are not anodized. So anodizing isn't a necessity, but it does prolong the life of an aluminum receiver. |
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Posted: 6/28/2018 3:46:16 AM EDT
[#24]
Plastic, wooden, brass, and steel lowers are not anodized. So anodizing isn't a necessity, but it does prolong the life of an aluminum receiver. Highly desirable, but not a necessity. Back in the day, some people would use oven cleaner and steel wool to remove the anodizing on aluminum pistol frames. I think that this is a little extreme, but it does show that anodizing is more of a luxury than a necessity. |
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Posted: 6/28/2018 8:07:11 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You can solder steel, you have to use acid flux and more heat but not silver solder temps. ( think Autobody before bondo for an example, and in shop class 35 years ago I soldered an aux fuel tank for my motorcycle made from sheet metal (steel) . and many tanks at the time were sealed by solder. ) You would want to tin both surfaces to be joined and then join them and heat letting the Tinned parts melt together. Is it the best option for a flat spot lower, No I don't think so. nor would I trust it on a brass one. (standard lead tin or just tin solder. ) I would want some silver for the strength, in lower % the temp is still manageable, and it is stronger than lead tin. https://www.nytimes.com/1987/02/01/nyregion/home-clinic-the-hows-and-whys-of-soldering-metal-together.html |
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Posted: 6/28/2018 11:19:28 AM EDT
[#26]
Welp, heard from the Flat Spot. They won't do brass flats.
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Posted: 6/28/2018 11:26:13 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Welp, heard from the Flat Spot. They won't do brass flats. |
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Posted: 6/28/2018 8:21:32 PM EDT
[#28]
Only $30. That's pretty cool.
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Posted: 6/29/2018 6:41:25 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only $30. That's pretty cool. |
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Posted: 6/29/2018 7:07:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's garbage bro but if you want to find out for yourself pay for the shipping and I'll dig up one of the ones I bought. Garbage, though? This doesn't look like garbage: 
A SHTF end of the world build: 
https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-Steel-AR-flats-from-the-Flat-Spot/4-647105/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/-ARCHIVED-THREAD-I-welded-together-a-steel-receiver-from-theflatspot-net-Update-6-11-Paint-Job-on-page-3/4-648352/ https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Backbencher-s-Wedding-Giveaway-Build-update-5-4/4-712979/ I'll find Raider14's build threads in a bit. |
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Posted: 7/5/2018 7:30:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Is that a socket on the barrel?
Love the rust and bolts. |
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Posted: 7/5/2018 8:55:21 PM EDT
[#32]
Flat Spot just arrived. Have the propane torch, now need some silver flux and some clamps...
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Posted: 7/7/2018 10:07:48 PM EDT
[#33]
Ok, went to the solder section @ Home Depot today, and have some questions:
1) There's some silver solder paste in a tube, that apparently has flux mixed in. Doesn't say it works on non-stainless steel, however. 2) There's electronic solder that has a rosin core. Will that work? Is that too weak a joint? 3) If I go silver solder, it comes as a little spool of thick silver wire. I have to cover both sides of the steel I'm joining with flux, correct? 4) The old man I was talking to there said to flux both sides, then lay a small bit of solder on one side - then apparently let it cool? Then flux that side again, then clamp it all together and heat it up, and I should see a thin bead of solder emerge from the joint? Am I understanding it right, or is that old school? 5) He also said to look for 5/95, which I take it is a lead/zinc mix. Still available, useful, or old school long discontinued? 6) Is there anything low temp enough I could spread out on all the parts, clamp them, and then toss em in the oven @ 450? Bake a lower? Keep in mind I majored in liberal arts in college, so when answering me, use small words and assume I know nothing about soldering, b/c I don't. |
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Posted: 7/7/2018 10:14:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ok, went to the solder section @ Home Depot today, and have some questions: 1) There's some silver solder paste in a tube, that apparently has flux mixed in. Doesn't say it works on non-stainless steel, however. There are Silver Solder pastes that melt at a MUCH lower temperature. |
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Posted: 7/7/2018 10:56:37 PM EDT
[#35]
And now I know where this idea came from when Fluffy called me a few.days back
I think cutting brass sheet and soldering would work well, there was that bolt together lower, that plexiglas lower, the wood lower. Strength isn't as necessary as the upper. After our stasi overlords unilaterally banned 80% I am sure there is no way anyone can build a lower now 
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Posted: 7/7/2018 11:03:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And now I know where this idea came from when Fluffy called me a few.days back
I think cutting brass sheet and soldering would work well, there was that bolt together lower, that plexiglas lower, the wood lower. Strength isn't as necessary as the upper. After our stasi overlords unilaterally banned 80% I am sure there is no way anyone can build a lower now We're gonna make em ban Legos next. New Frontier Armory, I think, has a polymer FCS. If they can do it out of plastic, it can be done out of Legos. Won't fit in a standard lower, of course, but if we have Legos, who needs a standard lower? |
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Posted: 7/7/2018 11:21:06 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 7/7/2018 11:58:05 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@guns762 
It's still sitting on my work bench. I can send it back or forward to someone with the skills to put it to use, if you like.  I like the silver solder idea... very curious if it will work. 
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Posted: 7/8/2018 1:14:32 AM EDT
[#39]
Maybe silver solder tape. Cut the strips, clamp them between the bits and heat away. If you can get it all done in one shot, that would be impressive!
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Posted: 7/8/2018 1:27:28 AM EDT
[#40]
Updated: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Remember-Flat-Spot-lowers-Now-a-soldering-thread-/4-728967/?r=7704019&page=1&anc=7704019#i7704019
Had left out 3 optional drilling steps. |
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Posted: 7/8/2018 1:29:24 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe silver solder tape. Cut the strips, clamp them between the bits and heat away. If you can get it all done in one shot, that would be impressive! |
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Posted: 7/8/2018 2:18:39 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah ha! Where do I find silver solder tape, and how hot do I have to get it? |
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Posted: 7/8/2018 8:56:37 AM EDT
[#43]
My several semesters of jewelry making classes taught me that hoping something stays aligned in the kiln is not an effective production technique
you are going to need a wide flame torch and a clamping methodology that does not result in accidentally soldering alignment drills bits into your work or setting your clamps on fire
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Posted: 7/8/2018 11:04:46 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My several semesters of jewelry making classes taught me that hoping something stays aligned in the kiln is not an effective production technique
you are going to need a wide flame torch and a clamping methodology that does not result in accidentally soldering alignment drills bits into your work or setting your clamps on fire Ok, I have a wide-flame propane torch, and will snag more metal clamps. Will keep from heating up the other lower(s) and or the upper. The good news about this method, if I screw it up and nothing is aligned right, I just heat it up (or throw it on the BBQ), and I'm back to a pile of parts to start over with. |
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Posted: 7/8/2018 11:20:05 AM EDT
[#45]
The plumbing "silver solder" is not a real silver solder in that the primary alloy is tin. It melts at similar temperatures as lead / tin solders of the past. The reason this is now used is to remove the fear of lead in potable water supplies.
Brownell's High Force 44 is a similar solder but with 4% silver and 96% tin. It will melt at a little higher temp, but not by much. It is the recommended "soft" solder for use in much gunsmithing work. Oven temps will work, but I'd be inclined to use a torch. As posted earlier, an acid based flux is required to get the solder to stick to steel, for it needs an oxide free and etched surface to stick. The advice to first tin the mating surfaces is a good one. The way I'd go about tinning those surfaces would be as follows: Apply a thin coat of flux on the mating surface. Heat with a torch from the opposite side until the solder melts. Run the wire along the edge to make a small bead that coats the mating edge. Wipe off while hot with a dry cotton cloth. There should be a void free coating on the surface. Re apply locally flux and solder to any void spots, and again wipe off. Assemble and clamp the parts with a small coating of flux along the joints (does not need to be an acid flux now) between joints making sure everything is lined up. Start at one convenient end and heat until the solder melts at that corner. Move the torch along and apply solder as needed. You should see the solder whet and weep into the joint and possibly squish out as well. Keep moving along heating and applying solder as needed throughout all the joints. If you do it well, the solder will cool and solidify by the time you reach the other end of a longer joint. Soldering aluminum is not practical at all. JB Weld would be far superior in terms of strength, for solder really does not stick to aluminum as the oxide layer form instantly. It is essentially a soft thin anodizing. For any hope of soldering aluminum it needs to be sanded under and kept in an inert atmosphere. Corrosion is a good possibility as well along the joint after it is done and sits. |
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Posted: 7/8/2018 11:34:15 AM EDT
[#46]
What temperature are we talking about with this plumbing silver solder? (Just realized the word plumber comes from the Latin for lead). Should we call them tinners or PVCers today?
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Posted: 7/8/2018 5:18:41 PM EDT
[#47]
The eutectic alloy of about 3.5% silver melts at about 430 degrees F. The 4% silver alloy melts a bit higher, but I'd suspect it will be around 450 degrees F. This is not too much higher than traditional lead tin solders.
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Posted: 7/8/2018 5:26:47 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: damn. I wonder why. |
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Posted: 7/8/2018 5:31:13 PM EDT
[#49]
So if I screw it up, I really could stick it in the oven @ 550, bake for 87 minutes, and have a fresh start.
If I could build a jig that would hold all the parts in place w/o risk of being soldered into the lower, we really could have shake & bake lowers, no? Very handy for car trips from Pennsylvania to Maine, for instance. Melt the solder off your lower, drive through New York w/ your jigsaw pieces until you get back to a free state, recoat it w/ solder, pop it in the jig, bake on high for 87 minutes? |
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Posted: 7/8/2018 5:34:26 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably material cost..... 
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