Based on my reading, if one has a red dot sight like a Aimpoint comp M2 or a Trijicon TA31 the only real use for a visible laser beam is the ability to shoot from the hip (or any other location where you cannot line up the sights).

Is this the only way they are useful, or are there any other reasons/uses to have a visible laser on a gun that already has a red dot sight ?

I ask because in the latest SOF they show delta and SEALs with M4s with Aimpoint comp M2s on them, but they also have a dual visible/IR laser mounted as well, and I was just wondering how useful the visible portion of that laser was...

thanks!

What they have mounted are PEQ2 laser pointer/illuminators.  They dont produce a visable beam.  One side is the pointer and one side is an IR laser illuminator.  You can buy these off Ebay for about $5000.

Ok - thanks!

What is a "pointer" ?  Do you mean one side is a tight IR laser, and the other is a wider IR beam ?

Also, for others reading this thread, still interested in knowing if there is any other utility in having a visible laser besides the ability to shoot from the hip, if one already has a red dot sight of some kind.

thanks!

If you are wearing your night vision goggles the IR laser will be visible. So put on your $3500 night vision goggles, your $350 IR laser and go hunting.

Personally I don't see the need for any laser on a rifle. I don't plan on hunting gobblins at night - most have night vision and you're IR or other laser is going to be a "shoot me" beacon.

As a civilian I don't have the ability to shoot people that I can't positively identify as a gobblin, a laser won't do that.

On a pistol I can see a laser grip like the crimson trace being used inside a home. Running around a house with a carbine isn't my idea of fun.

AR type rifles allow you to hold your head up more when you shoot so you have more of an unobstructed field of view because the barrel and stock are lower and more out of the "threat identification cone"  the laser let's you lift your cheek completely off the stock to shoot.  so you field of view is completely unobstructed and the thread identification cone is greater.  

1.  Intimidation:  People with small red dots on their chest get the picture real fast.

2.  Reduced visibility (Protective/Gas Masks):  Not all masks allow a good cheek weld or sight alignment, so a laser makes CQB easier.

To answer your question yes a pointer is a dot and an illuminator can be spread from a dot to a beam like a flash light.

Visible lasers are the ultimate way to mess with your cats head.
I'm waiting for the visible green laser (looks like a light saber so I've been told at night) Surefire L80 to be released.
I'm thinking target aquisition would be very high with that system. A lot of fun too.
-Steve

Typically you'll never notice a light on your chest - or even your face for that matter. I teach at the University of California and use a laser pointer during my presentations. Often I'll level the laser into the chest of a student who will have no clue that it's sitting just inches below his eyes. Everyone knows the laser is on but until the look down at their chest they don't know it's even pointed at them.

When one has a loaded rifle pointed at them the natural instint of the person is to not glance away - except for a possible escape route - certainly not checking the fit of their clothes. If the shooter were at a great distance what's the point? What are you trying to communicate to the person you're pointing a rifle at?

There's only one reason that I would ever point a loaded rifle into someone's chest and that would be to kill them. Having them know that I have aquired the center of mass does me no good.

A laser is not a communication device, it's an aiming assist so I will agree 100% with your second point. Indoors wearing a gas mask the laser will help just as a red dot sight will do under all conditions.

Anyone with a SureFire LXX series of visible lasers pointed at their chest will most certainly notice the light.  They're quite a bit brighter than clinical laser "pointers."

BTW, pointing a laser at anyone, unless it's attached to a gun, is a great way to get your ass kicked.  They're also dangerous to the eyes.  Lasers come with a little warning booklet (read it) just to remind you that they're not toys.  [;)]

In the United States the output of lasers is very well regulated by Center for Devices and Radiological Health (CDRH) regulation 21 CFR 1040.10 and 21 CFR 1040.11 - those little stickers that are required on the side of the pointer and weapon sight.

Class I laser product - no known biological hazard.

Class II laser products - power up to 1 milliwatt. (some of the whimy $4 laser pointers are class II products)

Class IIIa laser products -
power output between 1 milliwatt and 5 milliwatt (typical of weapon sights and real laser pointers).

[i]Any laser system that has a power output of greater than 5 milliwatts [b]MUST[/b] be registered with the FDA and Center for Devices and Radiological Health by serial number. A great pain in the ass.[/i]

Class IIIb laser products - power output from 5 milliwatts to 500 milliwatts. These lasers are considered a definate eye hazard, particularly at the higher power levels, which WILL cause eye damage. These lasers MUST have a [b]key[/b] switch to prevent unathorized use, a laser emission indicator, a 3 to 5 second time delay after power is applied to allow the operator to move away from the beam path and a mechanical shutter to turn the beam off during use. Skin may be burned at the higher levels of power output as well as the flash point of some materials which could catch fire.  

Class IV laser products - power output >500 milliwatts. Your basic death ray (sharks with lasers attached to their heads).

Both IIIb and IV are used by the Navy for weapon sights and optical alignments. The rooms that contain the test benches have locked doors, blinking lights, and require the wearing of safety glasses.

My classroom is optimize for a video projector with the lights soft and even. The students are (normally) not high on drugs nor adrenaline, not breaking the law, nor armed. What seems like something that ought to be obvious (it works in Hollywood) isn't.

Both the Surefire L72 (red) and the L80 (green) lasers are rated at 5 milliwatts. The 532nM wave lenght of the green laser is in the more active portion of the human vision and Surefire claims it's "six times" bighter - which would be about 4 dB more visible.

We will have to disagree.

I'm of the mind that a laser on a rifle is worthless 99% of the time. Using a rifle indoors from anywhere other then the shoulder is bad (or not very good) tactics, and outdoors 23 hours a day it's too bight or too dark. I would argue that one would be better served by a plain old (Surefire) flashlight at night and iron sights by day.

If I'm pointing a rifle at someone I'm shooting them as fast as I can aquire the center of mass and reload.

I'm not attempting to communicate anything with a laser light beam no matter how bright. There are much better sighting options - iron sights, Aimpoints, or other red dot sights that work indoors or out, day and night (with flashlight).

If someone needs to be shot, they get shot. The only reason I'm pointing the muzzle end of a loaded weapon at someone is to kill them >.<

If someone can't be shot pointing a loaded rifle equipped with a laser at them in attempt to scare them or communicate with them is a violation of the laws of gun safety and should result in the pointer getting severely beaten or properly shot.

Focus on what you [i]really[/i] are going to do with the rifle and have the form follow the function. Too many people hang crap off their rifle because it looks cool. Spend more time shooting and less time buy junk for the rifle.

It's a Zen thing.

I teach college gradulate and post-graduate students and wouldn't be so stupid to even dream of trying to harm me for pointing a laser at them. Prolonged staring into the beam of a class IIIa can cause damage but it has to be done intentionally as the eye will blink to protect itself - the reason IR pointers are so dangerous is that the eye doesn't blink to IR.

I do avoid their eyes (when they're open).

Even a little smoke will disrupt a beam and render a laser useless, unless my Crimson Trace grips on my Ruger MkII bull barrel are inadequate.  So, if you have on a gasmask, wouldn't that be after blooping some CS, or after a flash bang, etc.?  I mean, it would be kindof disco cool with smoke and red light beams bouncing about, but that's about it.  And if you required an NBC suit (from radiation or biological, or nerve agent) I reckon you could dispose of what was left with a claw hammer and save your ammo.  Sorry if I missed something and I apologize in advance for any offense caused by my hammer comment;)

As a training tool. Many novice shooters think they are aiming correctly but are not. If the laser is lined up with the sights then the trainer can get a better idea of what the shooter is looking at. It's also easier to see if the shooter is not holding a sight picture well and just pulling the trigger when the sights move over the target.

Tactical uses? Can't help you there.

But Redleg, I saw them using them on an episode of X Files one time.  A bunch of black kevlar'd tactypes were hunting an alien, and......

Yeah, I think I say that one. All these guys running around in a smoke filled room. Laser beems shining through the smoke and dust. Kinda reminds me of a Murfeys law.    
-Tracers work both ways-

Visable lasers should be used in a temporary manner.  When you go to flash your laser on someone its just to make your shot then its off again.  You should not run around with the laser active no more than you should run around with a flashlight active.  As far as smoke no it wont render the laser useless.  Yes you can see the beam in smoke but it should be on for less than a second at a time.  There are certain tactics you must use when emplyoing light based visual aid systems.  Dp you guys also drive around with your horns activated on your cars everywhere you go?

I do. Louisiana drivers are pretty crappy. I think my Crimson Trace grips on my Ruger MkII stainless bull barrel target are simply great.  But my Series 70 Clark .45 aint got em, nor does my BHP, nor my 92FS Centurion.  Got a Surefire though and don't roam about with it on so I get your point.  For me, a laser in my circumstances (defending my office or darkened home where I know the terrain) seems to be a blinking "SHOOT ME!" sign around my neck.  I'm sure, however, that there are limited circumstances where one would come in handy(?).  My CT laser is distorted by rain, fog, smoke. I've used it in the field under those conditions for popping possums, large rats, etc.  I will say that it will hipmotize a possum, which is only slightly smarter than most of our resident recidivists.
Cheers ya'll,
Cleophis

"Las-er?" Did someone say "las-er"?

With a gas mask on (and we use the good MSA type) the laser is awesome for entry especially when combined with a light! I know first hand of a search warrant for a felon in which a "las-er" saved the operators life. Upon entry, with the use of gas, the suspect was sitting in a room full of people. The operator spoted the suspect and he was laying back in a chair coughing and flailing about. The operator was giving him commands and was prepairing to cuff him when he jumped up and pushed the covering operator down. He then made a leap to an end table. The original operator had slung his rifle and as he quickly pulled it up he activated the "las-er" pressure switch and was able to get off a round (center mass) before the now pistol welding crook could dispatch him! He had no time to re aquire the red dot of his Aimpoint. I will agree that they are useless a large part of the time. But my rifle wont be without one because of the small part of the time that saved a friends life.

DoorKicker6

[img]http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=dswarlickjr&album_id=104255&image_id=22&courtesy=1[/img]  

Can the regular red or green visible lasers be seen through night vision goggles? If so can they be used like an IR laser at night? I know that it will be visible to everyone I just want to know if it can serve a duel role.

Door Kicker, what brand of laser is that on your rifle? How is it holding up? Any problems with that unit?

Thanks.

Well you can use a visable laser when using night vision but the problem is that where the laser strikes will "bloom" or look like a giant glowing pumkin.  Also this is not covert as everyone can see your laser.  What some people have done is use several layers of film negative to cover the laser to reduce its output.  This stops the bloom but also makes the laser useless without night vision.  A Corsak IR laser is very cheap.  Id just use that instead.

Luckystiff,

Its the OTAL (Offset Tactical Aiming Laser) by Laser devices. It retails for about $550.00 but dont let the price scare you. Its well worth full retail. Its really heavy duty anodized aircraft aluminum and can reach 1000 yard ranges at night! Its also waterproof to 30 meters! I cant say enough about this unit except that there isnt another laser on the market that I'd put on my rifle!

DoorKicker6

I did notice that w/ NVG on the visible lasers appeared as a solid light beam from origin to target where as the IR laser just showed up on the target.

This is a disadvantage of a visable laser. but for indoor use in strange positions it does have it's uses - but like a white light you need to keep in mind when it is not advisable to turn it on.