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Posted: 6/12/2018 1:19:25 PM EDT
[#1]
You are sort of way overthinking this. You look through it or over it/ point and shoot if you're that close. Or you know, utilize your night vision equipment or a white light.
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Posted: 6/12/2018 1:19:38 PM EDT
[#2]
You can close the front cap and leave both eyes open. Also 15 yards is not aiming distance anyway. Orient and pull or just use the housing top like a front site at that range.
Try it running and gunning totally works. Hell just try removing your scope amd shooting a rifle within 20 yards. You are faster without aiming and wont miss more. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 1:58:03 PM EDT
[#3]
Are you saying that a marine would use a white light outdoors? I find that kind of hard to believe.
I have seen people under stress miss spectacularly at close distance point shooting. It have practiced point shooting. I don't have a great deal of trust in it. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 2:09:55 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are you saying that a marine would use a white light outdoors? I find that kind of hard to believe. I have seen people under stress miss spectacularly at close distance point shooting. It have practiced point shooting. I don't have a great deal of trust in it. During CQB engagements it is point shooting. Just touch the target with the FSP and you are good. In low light, we have the red laser and IR laser depending if you have your NVGs. It is all situational dependent. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 2:16:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Did you ever use your red laser outdoors in low light? Were you concerned it would lead right back to you and draw fire?
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Posted: 6/12/2018 2:25:10 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It depends on the mission and the environment. During CQB engagements it is point shooting. Just touch the target with the FSP and you are good. In low light, we have the red laser and IR laser depending if you have your NVGs. It is all situational dependent. Quote HistoryQuoted: It depends on the mission and the environment. During CQB engagements it is point shooting. Just touch the target with the FSP and you are good. In low light, we have the red laser and IR laser depending if you have your NVGs. It is all situational dependent. Quoted:
Did you ever use your red laser outdoors in low light? Were you concerned it would lead right back to you and draw fire? And not trying to sound like a smartass but indexing/ point shooting or whatever you want to call it is a relatively easy to train skill. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 2:36:37 PM EDT
[#7]
On a man sized target, I agree. Point shooting could be doable to 25 yards or so. The problem I see is that, once the shooting starts, there are few "man sized" targets. People hide. I would think you will have mostly exposed body parts to shoot at - heads, part of a leg, part of an arm ect...
I wouldn't trust point shooting on small targets. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 2:43:50 PM EDT
[#8]
If you're really not liking occluded shooting than buy an offset RMR.
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Posted: 6/12/2018 2:58:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Army used to look right over ACOGs and use just the front sight, but that was a long time ago they may have a more operator solution these days.
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Posted: 6/12/2018 3:08:15 PM EDT
[#10]
At those distances I would really don't worry a lot about a perfect sight picture. if the reticles ends up where I wanted it great, if not then I will be close enough to get hits even though they won't be the most desirable.. I am also not worried about giving away my position with light at those distances because they probably already know where I am... use the light.
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Posted: 6/12/2018 4:39:04 PM EDT
[#11]
At those distances look over the top of the Acog or cant the gun and look down the side of the gun/barrel.
Low light/no light IR and Nods. I don’t think I’ve ever used the red laser on a mission. Depending on the mission and the environment white light can be used outside. (Urban with a ton of light. nods will be washed out). Especially if you aren’t trying to be sneaky and they know you’re there already. White light inside scrutures. I’ve had to clear building with hallways 50+ meters. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 5:18:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did you ever use your red laser outdoors in low light? Were you concerned it would lead right back to you and draw fire? The red laser is not a solid laser. You only see the dot. In all actuality, they normally know where you. They have coms and people informing of them of where the patrol is going. When we got in firefights, it was them who fired first from kill holes 300 meters off. The other times, we would roll up on someone planting an IED and detain them or shoot them and that would draw fire as well. You are over thinking this. We would try to be all stealthy at night and use NVGs. Be all sneaky squirrel until somebody falls and eats shit all hard and everyone laughs. Dogs are going to give your position away at night half the time. Night ops when you are firmly established are a waste of time. If you are inserted into an AO, that is a different story. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 5:20:27 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At those distances look over the top of the Acog or cant the gun and look down the side of the gun/barrel. Low light/no light IR and Nods. I don’t think I’ve ever used the red laser on a mission. Depending on the mission and the environment white light outside can be used outside. (Urban with a ton of light. nods will be washed out). Especially if you aren’t trying to be sneaky and they know you’re there already. White light inside scrutures. I’ve had to clear building with hallways 50+ meters. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 6:14:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're really not liking occluded shooting than buy an offset RMR. being a civilian, you are not hindered by military protocol. use what works. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 6:39:46 PM EDT
[#15]
I have been debating between a piggyback RMR type 2 or the RMR on the new Trijicon 45 degree mount. I went with the 45 degree. The offset mount will put the RMR at the same height as my TA110. So, my zeros will be identical. I like the profile of the piggyback version better. But, I don't like the height over bore.
Some great info in this thread on adapting and making due with what you have. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 7:12:21 PM EDT
[#16]
If you got an acog in a lowlight 0-25 yard confrontation then you've brought the wrong tool to work.
You need the right equipment for the right job. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 7:37:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you got an acog in a lowlight 0-25 yard confrontation then you've brought the wrong tool to work. You need the right equipment for the right job. It is unknowable. Therefore, you have to be prepared for ANY eventuality. Unless you have a "gun caddy" or ESP. If you have ESP, you would decide to be somewhere else. The right tool has to handle everything. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 8:30:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you got an acog in a lowlight 0-25 yard confrontation then you've brought the wrong tool to work. You need the right equipment for the right job. 
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Posted: 6/12/2018 8:34:02 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been debating between a piggyback RMR type 2 or the RMR on the new Trijicon 45 degree mount. I went with the 45 degree. The offset mount will put the RMR at the same height as my TA110. So, my zeros will be identical. I like the profile of the piggyback version better. But, I don't like the height over bore. Some great info in this thread on adapting and making due with what you have. |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 8:37:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The right tool has to handle everything. 
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Posted: 6/12/2018 8:43:32 PM EDT
[#21]
I was looking at pine needles in a tree via starlight. NV glaases, subject would light up like a xmas tree.
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Posted: 6/12/2018 8:58:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I liked using the red laser on post. Put it on a farmer working the field at dusk because you are bored. The kids liked the laser Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
At those distances look over the top of the Acog or cant the gun and look down the side of the gun/barrel. Low light/no light IR and Nods. I don’t think I’ve ever used the red laser on a mission. Depending on the mission and the environment white light outside can be used outside. (Urban with a ton of light. nods will be washed out). Especially if you aren’t trying to be sneaky and they know you’re there already. White light inside scrutures. I’ve had to clear building with hallways 50+ meters.
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Posted: 6/12/2018 9:01:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote History |
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Posted: 6/12/2018 9:44:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One wouldn't just run around with it on but yeah it could potentially give your position away. Muzzle flash and a rifle shot can also draw fire. We used white light quite heavily(even outdoors on certain missions, like he said, depends on what you are doing. IR lasers and NODs are used in closequarters frequently as well. And not trying to sound like a smartass but indexing/ point shooting or whatever you want to call it is a relatively easy to train skill. 
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Posted: 6/13/2018 8:59:51 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you got an acog in a lowlight 0-25 yard confrontation then you've brought the wrong tool to work. You need the right equipment for the right job. Where are you getting this information that it is the wrong tool? |
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Posted: 6/13/2018 10:51:41 AM EDT
[#26]
I think Barretboy's comment is retarded for many reasons.
The tools that a marine needs in combat as a team is different than the tools a civilian needs in SHTF or a riot. A marine has backup most of the time. As a civilian, I do not have that luxury. It is pure truth that NO ONE can accurately predict the exact nature of his future engagement with a bad guy. Therefore, a civilian gun needs to be able to handle near and far threats. I will not trust my life to point shooting at close range. Especially given the fact that you may only have body parts to shoot at instead of the ridiculous concept of "man sized targets". It is not just me. I have seen people miss that should have hit point shooting in 3 gun and at shooting schools. It may not be a big deal to miss if you have a squad of marine buddies backing you up. As a civilian, I can't afford to capitalize on things that should be a slam dunk (close shots). ACOGs are great. They are my favorite optic. However, a piggyback RMR or offset red dot is necessary to make my ACOG a complete sighting system. I just put an offset RMR on my TA110. Now, I trust that setup near and far. Once the red dot is added to the ACOG, it is far superior to a LPV. No levers to flip. Instant access to a superior 1x sight picture and instant access to a superior magnified sight picture with less instance of scope shadow. |
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Posted: 6/13/2018 3:10:26 PM EDT
[#27]
OP: Your question and the premise it seems to be based on is faulty.
Your question might be better asked: "What do the units that are superior in CQB use for optics and aiming solutions across the open and low-visibility light conditions?" Asking how entry-level Marines and their junior leaders do it is going to get a different set of results, which are specific to their capabilities and limitations. The majority of ACOGs are not well-suited to the close range fight, and require workarounds as far as aiming solutions go. They are better-suited for a hardened DM optic for general issue. Another close range solution to use in conjunction with an ACOG would be a visible laser. |
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Posted: 6/13/2018 7:08:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP: Your question and the premise it seems to be based on is faulty. Your question might be better asked: "What do the units that are superior in CQB use for optics and aiming solutions across the open and low-visibility light conditions?" Asking how entry-level Marines and their junior leaders do it is going to get a different set of results, which are specific to their capabilities and limitations. The majority of ACOGs are not well-suited to the close range fight, and require workarounds as far as aiming solutions go. They are better-suited for a hardened DM optic for general issue. Another close range solution to use in conjunction with an ACOG would be a visible laser. |
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Posted: 6/13/2018 9:20:52 PM EDT
[#29]
I never had to use my weapon in combat, I was just an airwing POG. The only time I trained in low light shooting in the military (I did far more in my off duty time than I ever did in the military), was on a controlled range and we used PVS14s and PEQs and shot using the IR laser.
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Posted: 6/14/2018 6:04:08 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think Barretboy's comment is retarded for many reasons. The tools that a marine needs in combat as a team is different than the tools a civilian needs in SHTF or a riot. A marine has backup most of the time. As a civilian, I do not have that luxury. It is pure truth that NO ONE can accurately predict the exact nature of his future engagement with a bad guy. Therefore, a civilian gun needs to be able to handle near and far threats. I will not trust my life to point shooting at close range. Especially given the fact that you may only have body parts to shoot at instead of the ridiculous concept of "man sized targets". It is not just me. I have seen people miss that should have hit point shooting in 3 gun and at shooting schools. It may not be a big deal to miss if you have a squad of marine buddies backing you up. As a civilian, I can't afford to capitalize on things that should be a slam dunk (close shots). ACOGs are great. They are my favorite optic. However, a piggyback RMR or offset red dot is necessary to make my ACOG a complete sighting system. I just put an offset RMR on my TA110. Now, I trust that setup near and far. Once the red dot is added to the ACOG, it is far superior to a LPV. No levers to flip. Instant access to a superior 1x sight picture and instant access to a superior magnified sight picture with less instance of scope shadow. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 11:32:15 AM EDT
[#31]
Sure. Everything has pros and cons. But, I am referring to the superiority of the offset RMR / TA11 ACOG combination compared to a LPV. It is hands down superior. The RMR is better on 1x. The ACOG is superior at magnification due to the more forgiving eyebox. And, these features are instantaneous.
Just because the military uses a piece of gear, doesn't make it best even for the intended role. If that were true, the Beretta M9 would be the pinnacle of handgun superiority. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 12:51:05 PM EDT
[#32]
The newer gen battery powered ACOGs might be a good solution for you. I'm receiving one tomorrow and am eager to try it out.
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Posted: 6/14/2018 1:51:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Sure. Everything has pros and cons. But, I am referring to the superiority of the offset RMR / TA11 ACOG combination compared to a LPV. It is hands down superior. The RMR is better on 1x. The ACOG is superior at magnification due to the more forgiving eyebox. And, these features are instantaneous. Just because the military uses a piece of gear, doesn't make it best even for the intended role. If that were true, the Beretta M9 would be the pinnacle of handgun superiority. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 2:17:17 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure. Everything has pros and cons. But, I am referring to the superiority of the offset RMR / TA11 ACOG combination compared to a LPV. It is hands down superior. The RMR is better on 1x. The ACOG is superior at magnification due to the more forgiving eyebox. And, these features are instantaneous. Just because the military uses a piece of gear, doesn't make it best even for the intended role. If that were true, the Beretta M9 would be the pinnacle of handgun superiority. "The military" uses far more fixed ACOGs than LPVs, but the numbers are moving in the opposite direction. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 2:26:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You have tested this on the clock? "The military" uses far more fixed ACOGs than LPVs, but the numbers are moving in the opposite direction. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 2:31:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Yes. I have done plenty of 3 gun matches with my older TA11J-G and T1 in a Larue offset LT-724 mount. It works. The only reason why the LPV is popular in 3 gun is because guys can walk the course ahead of time. If they had no clue where the targets were (and if the targets were shooting back), they would start the course on 1X with their LPV. Every one of them. Or, they would run an offset red dot.
And, if they had to engage unexpected targets at near and far range, they would wish they had a way to do it instantly. If they had only a LPV, it would stay on 1X. Just because lots of people are doing something, doesn't mean it is the best choice. Lots of people smoke. Lots of people do drugs. Lots of people voted for Hillary. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 4:35:41 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Visible lasers are great for these ranges. especially in CQB... just make sure not to lighthouse yourself. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
OP: Your question and the premise it seems to be based on is faulty. Your question might be better asked: "What do the units that are superior in CQB use for optics and aiming solutions across the open and low-visibility light conditions?" Asking how entry-level Marines and their junior leaders do it is going to get a different set of results, which are specific to their capabilities and limitations. The majority of ACOGs are not well-suited to the close range fight, and require workarounds as far as aiming solutions go. They are better-suited for a hardened DM optic for general issue. Another close range solution to use in conjunction with an ACOG would be a visible laser. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 4:41:36 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure. Everything has pros and cons. But, I am referring to the superiority of the offset RMR / TA11 ACOG combination compared to a LPV. It is hands down superior. The RMR is better on 1x. The ACOG is superior at magnification due to the more forgiving eyebox. And, these features are instantaneous. Just because the military uses a piece of gear, doesn't make it best even for the intended role. If that were true, the Beretta M9 would be the pinnacle of handgun superiority. In units that can and do have whatever they want as far as optics go, you don't see ACOGs. Even when ACOGs were one of the only magnified optics available, you only saw them on SOCOM weapons because that's all there was in the SOPMOD kit for magnified optics. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 4:53:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. I have done plenty of 3 gun matches with my older TA11J-G and T1 in a Larue offset LT-724 mount. It works. The only reason why the LPV is popular in 3 gun is because guys can walk the course ahead of time. If they had no clue where the targets were (and if the targets were shooting back), they would start the course on 1X with their LPV. Every one of them. Or, they would run an offset red dot. And, if they had to engage unexpected targets at near and far range, they would wish they had a way to do it instantly. If they had only a LPV, it would stay on 1X. Just because lots of people are doing something, doesn't mean it is the best choice. Lots of people smoke. Lots of people do drugs. Lots of people voted for Hillary. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 7:41:04 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. I have done plenty of 3 gun matches with my older TA11J-G and T1 in a Larue offset LT-724 mount. It works. The only reason why the LPV is popular in 3 gun is because guys can walk the course ahead of time. If they had no clue where the targets were (and if the targets were shooting back), they would start the course on 1X with their LPV. Every one of them. Or, they would run an offset red dot. And, if they had to engage unexpected targets at near and far range, they would wish they had a way to do it instantly. If they had only a LPV, it would stay on 1X. Just because lots of people are doing something, doesn't mean it is the best choice. Lots of people smoke. Lots of people do drugs. Lots of people voted for Hillary. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 8:47:12 PM EDT
[#41]
Yes. I have the Razor HD E version 1-6x. I don’t hate it. But, it is much more finicky than my TA110 about your head placement to avoid scope shadow.
4x is on the Razor is okay. I use it for coyote hunting at 4x. But, I am much faster getting a sight picture on my 3.5x TA110 on a coyote coming in on the call. On the Razor, 6x is bad. I would only use 6x if I had lots of time. I have had coyotes suddenly appear on the run 15-20 yards away on my calling sets. With my ACOG / T1, I just roll the rifle and take the shot. There is no way in heck to make that shot at 1x if I had my Razor dialed to 4x. You just don’t have time. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 9:35:05 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The newer gen battery powered ACOGs might be a good solution for you. I'm receiving one tomorrow and am eager to try it out. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 9:36:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. I have the Razor HD E version 1-6x. I don’t hate it. But, it is much more finicky than my TA110 about your head placement to avoid scope shadow. 4x is on the Razor is okay. I use it for coyote hunting at 4x. But, I am much faster getting a sight picture on my 3.5x TA110 on a coyote coming in on the call. On the Razor, 6x is bad. I would only use 6x if I had lots of time. I have had coyotes suddenly appear on the run 15-20 yards away on my calling sets. With my ACOG / T1, I just roll the rifle and take the shot. There is no way in heck to make that shot at 1x if I had my Razor dialed to 4x. You just don’t have time. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 9:53:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Wrong. I have. I just chose not to answer your stupid question.
Besides, you don’t need a timer to tell you that rolling to the offset red dot is faster than dialing a LPV back to 1x. A timer can’t measure the superior eye box that the ACOG has over a LPV. It is the difference of a conventional scope vs a prism based scope. |
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Posted: 6/14/2018 10:40:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wrong. I have. I just chose not to answer your stupid question. Besides, you don’t need a timer to tell you that rolling to the offset red dot is faster than dialing a LPV back to 1x. A timer can’t measure the superior eye box that the ACOG has over a LPV. It is the difference of a conventional scope vs a prism based scope. Something like what this guy did (@3:00) for timing the systems against each other with the same shooter/same rifle to complete the same course of fire. |
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Posted: 6/15/2018 3:47:47 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And if the ACOG had superior exit pupil at magnification, it would be on top of a lot of carbines in SMUs. In units that can and do have whatever they want as far as optics go, you don't see ACOGs. Even when ACOGs were one of the only magnified optics available, you only saw them on SOCOM weapons because that's all there was in the SOPMOD kit for magnified optics. The 8mm exit pupil is approximately the same size as most LPVs at x1. Contrary to popular belief, LPVs don't have ~24mm exit pupils at x1 power, the size of their objectives. You'd expect it to be humongous by using the equation, but the equation doesn't take into account the internal components, alotted elevation travel space, etc. You'd need it to be a straight tube like an Aimpoint to be like that. LPV tubular scopes have tubular internal components in them that restrict the image, such as the erector assembly and focal lens assembly. That said, they still do have generous eyeboxes, and you're somewhat at the point of diminishing returns if you increase the diameter of the tube to make the exit pupil bigger. |
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