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Posted: 5/6/2020 2:15:49 AM EDT
Magical 2700 fps for M193, 10.5" reliable frag out to 25meters, 11.5" out to 45meters...

This is what I've heard for years anyway. Everyone seems to agree that super shorties aren't as good out at longer ranges.

Does anyone know or have data (my google-fu turns up nothing) on what the minimum velocity for reliable performance is on:

77gr SMK/TMK/OTM

50gr TSX
55gr TSX/GMX
62gr TSX
70gr TSX/GMX

62/64gr Bonded SP

Basically, what max range do I get out of these rounds from a 10.5" barrel?

I am getting bored and may buy a chrono, ballistic gel, a couple different super shorty uppers, and figure this out myself. That would take a few years, but what the hell.
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 5:00:03 AM EDT
[#1]
Frag threshold on M193 tends to run closer to 2500-2600 FPS, though the chance of random failure increases as the bullet gets closer to that range.

77 gr SMK is likely around 2100-2200 FPS. It is still fragging pretty well at around 2350 FPS, but there is a step down in performance.

77 gr TMK is probably about 1650-1700 FPS. At 1780 FPS it demonstrates reasonable expansion with reduced fragmentation. At 1600 FPS it reportedly fails to mushroom.

Black Hills 50 gr TSX has an expansion threshold of approximately 2300 FPS I believe.

62 gr TSX runs around the 1900-1950 FPS range, 70 gr TSX can expand about 100 FPS lower.

62 and 64 gr Gold Dot/Fusion should open up down to 1600 FPS.

I can't remember the GMX numbers off the type of my head but I'd venture it's somewhere between BH 50 gr TSX and 62 gr TSX. Likewise I'm not sure what the threshold is on TBBC and Nosler BSB but I'd guess somewhere in between Gold Dot and TSX.

Of these options, TMK would probably afford the most range, at around 350-400 yards out of a 10.5".
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 5:49:49 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45custom:
Frag threshold on M193 tends to run closer to 2500-2600 FPS, though the chance of random failure increases as the bullet gets closer to that range.

77 gr SMK is likely around 2100-2200 FPS. It is still fragging pretty well at around 2350 FPS, but there is a step down in performance.

77 gr TMK is probably about 1650-1700 FPS. At 1780 FPS it demonstrates reasonable expansion with reduced fragmentation. At 1600 FPS it reportedly fails to mushroom.

Black Hills 50 gr TSX has an expansion threshold of approximately 2300 FPS I believe.

62 gr TSX runs around the 1900-1950 FPS range, 70 gr TSX can expand about 100 FPS lower.

62 and 64 gr Gold Dot/Fusion should open up down to 1600 FPS.

I can't remember the GMX numbers off the type of my head but I'd venture it's somewhere between BH 50 gr TSX and 62 gr TSX. Likewise I'm not sure what the threshold is on TBBC and Nosler BSB but I'd guess somewhere in between Gold Dot and TSX.

Of these options, TMK would probably afford the most range, at around 350-400 yards out of a 10.5".
View Quote


Awesome data! Is there some super obvious place I should have looked or are you really that good?

Now I just need to plug these numbers into some ballistic calculators to get ranges!

Thanks!
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 6:09:42 AM EDT
[#3]
Thank you. I know we've got an SBR self defense ammo thread around here with some useful data, and Leid and The_Chopping_Block have done a lot of good work. Manufacturers have sometimes given info on bullet performance, but such claims are often best checked against real world gel testing. Some of it is just bits and pieces you pick up as you read on the matter.
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 6:57:22 AM EDT
[#4]
Although without the thresholds, you need to read this

Click
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 7:06:04 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Magical 2700 fps for M193, 10.5" reliable frag out to 25meters, 11.5" out to 45meters...

This is what I've heard for years anyway. Everyone seems to agree that super shorties aren't as good out at longer ranges.

Does anyone know or have data (my google-fu turns up nothing) on what the minimum velocity for reliable performance is on:

77gr SMK/TMK/OTM 2250fps, with TMK working well down to 1800ish or lower

50gr TSX  2300fps
55gr TSX/GMX 1900/2000
62gr TSX 1900
70gr TSX/GMX 1800/2000

62/64gr Bonded SP 1600, debated

Basically, what max range do I get out of these rounds from a 10.5" barrel?

I am getting bored and may buy a chrono, ballistic gel, a couple different super shorty uppers, and figure this out myself. That would take a few years, but what the hell.
View Quote


Those are the velocities off the top of my head. Refer to Bryan Litz works for BC's.
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 7:20:12 AM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 8:20:38 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:
fragmentation is one type of wounding mechanism.

But bullets going 2200 FPS do rifle-level damage to human tissue, which is not able to expand elastically fast enough and so it tears laterally.

2200 FPS is the minimum velocity for rifle-type wounding. Below that, and you get pistol-type wounding which is just a simple crush cavity.

Lucky Gunner video with Federal Ammunition researchers, skip to the 5:00 mark
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-ballistics-gel-works/

View Quote


It really depends. You can take that 2200fps down to about 14-1500fps for some forms of ammunition. Large, soft, heavy bullets for example, and some handgun rounds (.44 magnum, etc) will perform "rifle damage" at 14-1600fps. Likewise, I think that a fragmenting rifle round will perform "rifle damage" at lower velocities because the TSC is/can also be turned more largely into a PC by fragmentation.
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 8:57:47 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:
fragmentation is one type of wounding mechanism.

But bullets going 2200 FPS do rifle-level damage to human tissue, which is not able to expand elastically fast enough and so it tears laterally.

2200 FPS is the minimum velocity for rifle-type wounding. Below that, and you get pistol-type wounding which is just a simple crush cavity.

Lucky Gunner video with Federal Ammunition researchers, skip to the 5:00 mark
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why-ballistics-gel-works/

View Quote


2200fps is nonsense despite what the researcher says; that would put the 'rifle effective' range of the 7.62x39 at about 50yds.


Most .300 BLK pistols / SBR's never hit 2200fps, yet are producing rifle wounds.

Likewise, .30 Carbine JSP has been shown to produce rifle like effects at 1850fps.

Here's M80A1 @ 1900fps from .300 blk:
https://youtu.be/DEIks1Y8KyM?t=191
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 9:04:34 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By spydercomonkey:


2200fps is nonsense despite what the researcher says; that would put the 'rifle effective' range of the 7.62x39 at about 50yds. 
https://i.ibb.co/FhgSRtx/Screen-Shot-2020-05-06-at-5-55-02-AM.png

Most .300 BLK pistols / SBR's never hit 2200fps, yet are producing rifle wounds.

Likewise, .30 Carbine JSP has been shown to produce rifle like effects at 1850fps. 

Here's M80A1 @ 1900fps from .300 blk:
https://youtu.be/DEIks1Y8KyM?t=191
View Quote


1800fps has loosely been what is touted by Dr. Roberts, with my above listed exceptions.
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 9:48:47 AM EDT
[#10]
I always here 1700-1900-2000 fps where the "threshold is", but seems very debated.

75gr Speer Gold Dot threshold for expansion is about 1900 fps. When I tested it from the 7.5" barrel @ 2000 fps it still expanded, but not as greatly as it did at 2400 fps. That would put it a couple hundred yards out I'd imagine..
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 10:31:49 AM EDT
[#11]
Have been working with the 75GR. Gold Dot over TAC at MAX 5.56MM NATO pressure out to 600yds. over the past few weeks. It is a sub-MOA accurate bullet out to 600yds. in an accurized rifle. Below are several examples of water-shot expansion at different impact velocities. The 62GR. Gold Dot expanded to approximately the same level as the 75GR. Gold Dot at 1647 FPS. HTH

OP: The high impact velocity shots with each bullet were fired from a 10.5" 1x7 Noveske N4 with M4 can attached.

Attachment Attached File


Attachment Attached File


Link Posted: 5/6/2020 10:47:54 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


2200fps is nonsense despite what the researcher says; that would put the 'rifle effective' range of the 7.62x39 at about 50yds.
https://i.ibb.co/FhgSRtx/Screen-Shot-2020-05-06-at-5-55-02-AM.png

Most .300 BLK pistols / SBR's never hit 2200fps, yet are producing rifle wounds.

Likewise, .30 Carbine JSP has been shown to produce rifle like effects at 1850fps.

Here's M80A1 @ 1900fps from .300 blk:
https://youtu.be/DEIks1Y8KyM?t=191
View Quote

the 2200fps number (I've also heard 2000fps) is the speed at which the temporary cavity of a round has enough energy to damage non-elastic organs/tissue that it contacts
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 11:17:53 AM EDT
[#13]
Below are actual examples of tissue damage done by relatively low speed rifle bullets on whitetail. Both were raking shots but from opposite sides. Exit wounds are both in the mid level of the chest cavity just in front of the diaphragm. IMO, bullets designed to expand and/or fragment at lower impact velocity are game-changers when it comes to terminal performance.

Exit wound: 110GR. TAC-TX impacted of approx. 2014 FPS:
Attachment Attached File


Exit wound: 110GR. TAC-TX impacted of approx. 1821 FPS:
Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 2:39:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 3:50:15 PM EDT
[#15]
So given we had a bullet that can touch say 2200 fps and produce rifle like secondary wounding from stretch, do I want a tumbling bullet, a expanding bullet, or a fragmenting bullet, if they were all to reach into the 12-18" mark?
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 3:54:46 PM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:
"Rifle-type" wounding is not expansion like a hollow point, nor is it fragmentation.  Both of those are a separate type of mechanical wounding.

"Rifle-type" wounding is when the projectile moves so fast the surrounding biological tissue cannot elastically expand fast enough to absorb the energy and therefore tears laterally from the stress.  Below this threshold velocity, a bullet can pass by an organ like the lungs and not directly damage the lungs.  Above this threashold velocity, a bullet that passes by the lungs still damages the lungs because the shockwave shreds the tissue outside of the permanent crush cavity.

Just because a bullet makes a big hole or lots of little holes in game by expanding or fragmenting does not mean it is a "rifle-type" of a wound.
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Originally Posted By MRW:
"Rifle-type" wounding is not expansion like a hollow point, nor is it fragmentation.  Both of those are a separate type of mechanical wounding.

"Rifle-type" wounding is when the projectile moves so fast the surrounding biological tissue cannot elastically expand fast enough to absorb the energy and therefore tears laterally from the stress.  Below this threshold velocity, a bullet can pass by an organ like the lungs and not directly damage the lungs.  Above this threashold velocity, a bullet that passes by the lungs still damages the lungs because the shockwave shreds the tissue outside of the permanent crush cavity.

Just because a bullet makes a big hole or lots of little holes in game by expanding or fragmenting does not mean it is a "rifle-type" of a wound.


While I agree with this, the effect gets overstated, and the line itself is debated.  

Is it 1800? 2000? 2200? 2500?  Does it depend on how much drinking the subject did the night before and is dehydrated?

How much surrounding tissue is actually damaged?  I've read that it is more more than 5cm, and that it heals withing 72 hours.  So it isn't like the entire TSC turns to jello.

Is the damage impacted by the SHAPE of the bullet?  This came up in one article regarding spire/spitzer vs round vs flat tip.  Just like diving vs a belly flop.  What makes a bigger wave?  And to that point, caliber would matter.  Bigger bullet, bigger wave, more damage.

Is that impacted by the velocity as well? For instance, assuming same construction, does a bullet traveling 3300 fps cause more "rifle damage" than the same bullet traveling 2300 fps?

Fun reading:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5759573_Ten_Common_Myths_of_Ballistic_Injuries
Click To View Spoiler

Again, to be clear, I do believe that enough velocity can cause additional "rifle type" wounding, I just think it gets overstated.  My assumption it that there is little difference between a wound that is caused by a bullet impacting at 2205 fps vs vs the same bullet impacting at 2195 fps (assuming 2200 is the magic number), and that there are plenty of other factors involved.

I posted these yesterday:
Idolatry of Velocity
Misinterpretation of the mechanism by which the M-16 rifle causes tissue disruption perpetuated the foregoing misconceptions. The M-16 (Fig 2) was introduced in Vietnam, and many compared the increased tissue disruption it produced (12-14, 49, 50) with that caused by previous military rifles. In the Vietnam era, the major role played by bullet fragmentation in tissue disruption was not recognized (8). It is now appreciated (12-14) and documented (Fig 3) that bullet fragmentation is the predominant reason underlying the M-16's increased tissue disruption. Despite this recent evidence, a generation of surgeons and weapon developers (28) has been confused and prejudiced by the assumption that "high velocity" and "temporary cavitation" were the sole causes of tissue disruption .


Presumption of "Kinetic Energy Deposit" to Be a Mechanism of Wounding
Anyone yet unconvinced of the fallacy in using kinetic energy alone to measure wounding capacity might wish to consider the example of a modern broadhead hunting arrow. It is used to kill all species of big game, yet its striking energy is only about 50 ft-lb (68 Joules)-- less than that of the .22 Short bullet. Energy is used efficiently by the sharp blade of the broadhead arrow. Cutting tissue is far more efficient than crushing it, and crushing it is far more efficient than tearing it apart by stretch (as in temporary cavitation)..
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 4:05:10 PM EDT
[#17]
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Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
So given we had a bullet that can touch say 2200 fps and produce rifle like secondary wounding from stretch, do I want a tumbling bullet, a expanding bullet, or a fragmenting bullet, if they were all to reach into the 12-18" mark?
View Quote


Fragmenting round do more damage.

Modern expanding rounds tend to be more consistent and barrier blind.

I have both Tac-tx and Vmax rounds....but I use 110gr Vmax for HD.   The benefit is that I don't really have to worry about secondary wounding from stretch.  If it happens, great.  If not, no big deal.  There is still a .30 caliber hole, and all of those little bits of copper and lead helps to turn a TSC into pulp.  The core itself still expands and pushes 12-18 inches.

Link Posted: 5/6/2020 4:14:03 PM EDT
[#18]
^ and we want the fragments reaching as deep as possible generally past the 6-7" mark in gel?
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 4:36:14 PM EDT
[#19]
Well, a few doctors looked at hundreds of cop shootouts; naaaaa.

Some guys shot a deer; yup that's the data we need. lol
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 4:50:45 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
^ and we want the fragments reaching as deep as possible generally past the 6-7" mark in gel?
View Quote

Yes
The deeper the better (to an extent), but that is one of the issues with fragmenting rounds.

Too much speed and the round ends up fragmenting closer to the surface, which is not ideal.  Great for removing flesh....but limited deep damage.  On the flip side, not enough speed and you might as well shoot an FMJ.  

"Good" expanding rounds usually have a wider fps range of full expansion and more consistent depth penetration.
Link Posted: 5/6/2020 9:15:57 PM EDT
[#21]
I have TMK 77’s as being good @ 1900fps. Some people will go higher or lower than that, but that depends on how you want to define ‘good’ fragmentation. Either way, 1900 is the most commonly referenced number and while it’s probably fine lower, it’s a pretty safe and conservative number to work with. That puts a 77 TMK, as loaded by Black Hills, as fragging out to around 250m give or take from a 10.5”. A 12.5” will push that out to 300m, and a 16” will push that out past 350m. Obviously this depends on your particular barrel and environmental factors.
Link Posted: 5/7/2020 3:17:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
So given we had a bullet that can touch say 2200 fps and produce rifle like secondary wounding from stretch, do I want a tumbling bullet, a expanding bullet, or a fragmenting bullet, if they were all to reach into the 12-18" mark?
View Quote

A 155gr AMAX and similar from a .308 works nice
M855a1 and Dual Performance CCCu  and TMK work well in 5.56
Link Posted: 5/7/2020 3:19:33 AM EDT
[#23]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Happy2shoot:
Well, a few doctors looked at hundreds of cop shootouts; naaaaa.

Some guys shot a deer; yup that's the data we need. lol
View Quote

Consider that deer hunting ammunition is the cutting edge of what's available for barrier blind LE/MIL use...
Link Posted: 5/7/2020 11:20:51 AM EDT
[#24]
There is no consistent 'magic number' where rifle-like damage occurs, and I really wish people would drop this already.

Temporary cavitation is tissue 'splash', much like the splash from a rock when it hits the water, or the snow being pushed rapidly out to the side of a snowplow. The actual shockwave from a bullet is a largely unrelated phenomenon that has not been proven to contribute anything of terminal importance, at least so far as bullet-based small arms are concerned.

The reason there is no magic number is because temporary cavitation is dependent on more than one factor. For example, the frontal area and the shape of the projectile both play important roles; this is why temporary cavitation increases when a bullet starts expanding, even though the velocity is decreasing. In addition, effective fragmentation reduces the amount of force needed to tear tissue apart, as the little bits of metal slicing through flesh will reduce the ability of tissue to resist stretching. (Think of it as trying to pull apart a sheet of paper that is intact by pulling on it from both ends, versus trying to pull apart a sheet of paper that has been swiss cheesed with lots of holes in it.)

The result is that a 2900 FPS 7n6 bullet causes practically no wounding beyond crush effects in many elastic tissues, while a .45-70 or a shotgun slug traveling at 1600 FPS may be quite devastating.

Also of note: When people talk about the threshold required to cause temporary cavitation damage, this is usually in regard to elastic tissues. Inelastic organs such as the kidney and liver can be damaged by the temporary cavitation of even many handgun hollowpoints. Furthermore, just because the bullet meets the threshold required to inflict some temporary cavitation damage does not mean all of the tissue stretched will be destroyed, as the 'splash' slows down as it moves further away from the bullet track. A projectile might generate a temporary cavity of sufficient magnitude to damage tissue 1 centimeter away from the crush cavity, but not 1 inch away from the crush cavity, even if the temporary cavity itself is 3 inches wide.

@leid: Very good info on those Gold Dots. This supports Speer's manufacturer claim that the 62/64 gr should start expanding at 1600 FPS. It would seem that the expansion threshold on the 75 gr is ~1750 FPS give or take.
Link Posted: 5/7/2020 11:59:06 AM EDT
[#25]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 45custom:
There is no consistent 'magic number' where rifle-like damage occurs, and I really wish people would drop this already.

Temporary cavitation is tissue 'splash', much like the splash from a rock when it hits the water, or the snow being pushed rapidly out to the side of a snowplow. The actual shockwave from a bullet is a largely unrelated phenomenon that has not been proven to contribute anything of terminal importance, at least so far as bullet-based small arms are concerned.

The reason there is no magic number is because temporary cavitation is dependent on more than one factor. For example, the frontal area and the shape of the projectile both play important roles; this is why temporary cavitation increases when a bullet starts expanding, even though the velocity is decreasing. In addition, effective fragmentation reduces the amount of force needed to tear tissue apart, as the little bits of metal slicing through flesh will reduce the ability of tissue to resist stretching. (Think of it as trying to pull apart a sheet of paper that is intact by pulling on it from both ends, versus trying to pull apart a sheet of paper that has been swiss cheesed with lots of holes in it.)

The result is that a 2900 FPS 7n6 bullet causes practically no wounding beyond crush effects in many elastic tissues, while a .45-70 or a shotgun slug traveling at 1600 FPS may be quite devastating.

Also of note: When people talk about the threshold required to cause temporary cavitation damage, this is usually in regard to elastic tissues. Inelastic organs such as the kidney and liver can be damaged by the temporary cavitation of even many handgun hollowpoints. Furthermore, just because the bullet meets the threshold required to inflict some temporary cavitation damage does not mean all of the tissue stretched will be destroyed, as the 'splash' slows down as it moves further away from the bullet track. A projectile might generate a temporary cavity of sufficient magnitude to damage tissue 1 centimeter away from the crush cavity, but not 1 inch away from the crush cavity, even if the temporary cavity itself is 3 inches wide.

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Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 5/8/2020 11:41:42 AM EDT
[#26]
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Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
I always here 1700-1900-2000 fps where the "threshold is", but seems very debated.

75gr Speer Gold Dot threshold for expansion is about 1900 fps. When I tested it from the 7.5" barrel @ 2000 fps it still expanded, but not as greatly as it did at 2400 fps. That would put it a couple hundred yards out I'd imagine..
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Interesting, because I was getting consistent expansion at 1650-1700fps.
Link Posted: 5/8/2020 11:47:28 AM EDT
[#27]
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Originally Posted By leid:
Have been working with the 75GR. Gold Dot over TAC at MAX 5.56MM NATO pressure out to 600yds. over the past few weeks. It is a sub-MOA accurate bullet out to 600yds. in an accurized rifle. Below are several examples of water-shot expansion at different impact velocities. The 62GR. Gold Dot expanded to approximately the same level as the 75GR. Gold Dot at 1647 FPS. HTH

OP: The high impact velocity shots with each bullet were fired from a 10.5" Noveske N4 with M4 can attached.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/42284/75GR__Gold_Dot_expansion___1686_FPS-1795-1403614.JPG

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/42284/62GR__Gold_Dot_unfired-1641_FPS-2737_FPS-1403640.JPG

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What twist rate? I used a 16" 1-8 twist with owder charges reduced for velocities.
Link Posted: 5/8/2020 12:26:26 PM EDT
[#28]
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Quoted:


Interesting, because I was getting consistent expansion at 1650-1700fps.
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Generally speaking though, water is going to give max expansion capabilities. I'm guessing in gel at 16-1700 it's still expanding, but not as well as it could be :D
Link Posted: 5/8/2020 8:57:33 PM EDT
[#29]
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Originally Posted By heavymetal762:


What twist rate? I used a 16" 1-8 twist with owder charges reduced for velocities.
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I used a 10.5" 1x7 Noveske N4 Switchblock barrel with M4 can for those water shots. Barnes uses water shots for both their high & low impact velocity expansion testing (below). The only true test of expansion is to put your bullet-of-choice into your flesh & bone target-of-choice at your velocity-of-choice. In most cases, that is just not practical. So Barnes also tests their products in the field on game animals. I do much the same. Water-shots give me a very good idea of expansion/fragmentation levels at different impact velocities. Then I go field test bullets/loads on varying size flesh and bone targets such as varmints/predators/deer/hogs.

Barnes Bullets LLC: Expansion Testing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q754y6y8khE
Link Posted: 5/9/2020 4:24:12 AM EDT
[#30]
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Originally Posted By leid:


I used a 10.5" 1x7 Noveske N4 Switchblock barrel with M4 can for those water shots. Barnes uses water shots for both their high & low impact velocity expansion testing (below). The only true test of expansion is to put your bullet-of-choice into your flesh & bone target-of-choice at your velocity-of-choice. In most cases, that is just not practical. So Barnes also tests their products in the field on game animals. I do much the same. Water-shots give me a very good idea of expansion/fragmentation levels at different impact velocities. Then I go field test bullets/loads on varying size flesh and bone targets such as varmints/predators/deer/hogs. 

Barnes Bullets LLC: Expansion Testing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q754y6y8khE
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Hi Leid, have you used both the 62gr and 75gr gold dot on game? If so, have you noticed any difference in terminal performance between the two loads? I've heard anecdotally that the 75gr tends to do more tissue damage, but I don't see why given that they both expand to around the same diameter.
Link Posted: 5/9/2020 9:55:12 AM EDT
[#31]
In all fairness, I have only used the 62GR. Gold Dot (GD) on a couple of animals so far. I still need to test both GD bullets further. But at close range, the 62GR. GD appeared to be more destructive on living tissue than the 75GR. GD when both were fired from the 10" class truck guns I normally use. IMO, this was probably due to the higher MV of the lighter bullet. You may see the same results with the 62GR. VS 70GR. 5.56MM TSX loads at close range. The 75GR. GD should retain velocity better than the 62GR. GD as long as the published BCs are near correct. Most shooters, including myself, feel that the actual BC of the 75GR. GD remains to be verified. The 75GR. GD was rumored to expand at the same impact velocity as the 62GR. GD. So I fired almost a dozen 75GR. GDs into water at MV between 1600-1700 FPS expecting expansion with every small increase in MV. No expansion whatsoever was observed. This does not speak well for using the factory .223 pressure 75GR. GD in a 10" class barrel due to the small expansion envelope. At only 2162 FPS from a 10.5" N4 barrel with M4 can, the factory .223 75GR. GD is a relatively slow load to start with. Whenever possible, I take advantage of every bit of MV I can get for my hunting ammo which may be pressed into service as SD/HD ammo while afield. So I handload the 75GR. GD to 5.56MM NATO pressure in new #41 primed LC brass (MV 2506 FPS) which puts the 75GR. GD bullet back on the top shelf with loads such as the 5.56MM 70GR. TSX. But the most destructive .223/5.56MM load I have used in a 10" class barrel is still the 5.56MM 77GR. TMK. The combination of expansion and fragmentation produces some really nice terminal performance for a 5.56MM on varmints/predators/whitetail/hogs.
Link Posted: 5/12/2020 6:31:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Velocity is only part of the equation.

A 5.56 moving at 3k fps without upset (yaw, expansion, or fragmentation) inside of the target will only icepick and cause little damage outside of the bullet's path.

Gel tests show this with what is called the neck of the wound channel. Even at well over the "magical" 2200fps, a 5.56 produces little damage in the first few inches into the gel and doesn't cause any damage away from the track until upset occurs.
Link Posted: 5/12/2020 7:02:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Link Posted: 5/12/2020 7:13:17 PM EDT
[#34]
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Originally Posted By MRW:
this is false.  The researchers at Federal in the Lucky Gunner video put this myth down.  Faster than 2200 FPS the bullet travels too fast for human tissue to elastically absorb the energy, and it tears laterally like a ripped ripped rubber band.
Gel is not human tissue.
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I'm not getting into this with you and your silly lucky gunner video again. You're not worth the ban.
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 11:36:25 AM EDT
[#35]
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Originally Posted By MRW:
this is false.  The researchers at Federal in the Lucky Gunner video put this myth down.  Faster than 2200 FPS the bullet travels too fast for human tissue to elastically absorb the energy, and it tears laterally like a ripped ripped rubber band.
Gel is not human tissue.
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Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By swampvol:
Velocity is only part of the equation.

A 5.56 moving at 3k fps without upset (yaw, expansion, or fragmentation) inside of the target will only icepick and cause little damage outside of the bullet's path.

Gel tests show this with what is called the neck of the wound channel. Even at well over the "magical" 2200fps, a 5.56 produces little damage in the first few inches into the gel and doesn't cause any damage away from the track until upset occurs.
this is false.  The researchers at Federal in the Lucky Gunner video put this myth down.  Faster than 2200 FPS the bullet travels too fast for human tissue to elastically absorb the energy, and it tears laterally like a ripped ripped rubber band.
Gel is not human tissue.

What swampvol said is correct.

The issue isn't debating whatever speed you believe the round overwhelms the elasticity of human tissue.  I don't think a single person has said that this phenomenon does not happen.
The (side) discussion is around all the variables that impact this phenomenon.
But more importantly, what you are not considering is how those variables impact the "amount" of secondary wounding that happens.
The Lucky Gunner video also stated talked about that little bullet at "2 1/2 times the speed of sound".  That is not 2200 fps, that is +2800 fps.  We all know how devastating M193 at 2800 fps (due to its fragmentation) is.  We also know how poorly these rounds perform below 2500 fps.
We are all aware of the poor terminal ballistics of M855 from SBR's when not fragmenting. That alone should tell you that there are so many other factors involved than just fps.  A small, pointy tipped bullet that does not expand or fragment (or even yaw) will be a poor performer on tissue.  This secondary wounding may indeed happen, but the amount of damage from such a round may be limited.   You may only gain a fraction of a mm of secondary wounding from stretch FPS.  It isn't like the entire TSC turns to jello because the round was doing 2201 fps versus 2199 fps.
 


“In 1980, I treated a soldier shot accidentally with an M16 M193 bullet from a distance of about ten feet.  The bullet entered his left thigh and traveled obliquely upward.  It exited after passing through about 11 inches of muscle.  The man walked in to my clinic with no limp whatsoever:  the entrance and exit holes were about 4 mm across, and punctate.  X-ray films showed intact bones, no bullet fragments, and no evidence of significant tissue disruption caused by the bullet’s temporary cavity.  The bullet path passed well lateral to the femoral vessels.  He was back on duty in a few days.  Devastating?  Hardly.  The wound profile of the M193 bullet (page 29 of the Emergency War Surgery—NATO Handbook, GPO, Washington, D.C., 1988) shows that most often the bullet travels about five inches through flesh before beginning significant yaw.    But about 15% of the time, it travels much farther than that before yawing—in which case it causes even milder wounds, if it missed bones, guts, lung, and major blood vessels.  In my experience and research, at least as many M16 users in Vietnam concluded that it produced unacceptably minimal, rather than “massive”, wounds.  After viewing the wound profile, recall that the Vietnamese were small people, and generally very slim.  Many M16 bullets passed through their torsos traveling mostly point forward, and caused minimal damage.  Most shots piercing an extremity, even in the heavier-built Americans, unless they hit bone, caused no more damage than a 22 caliber rimfire bullet.”

Fackler, ML:  “Literature Review”.  Wound Ballistics Review; 5(2):40, Fall 2001


None of this means that fps does not matter,  no one is saying that.  It just means that fps is part of the total equation.   Getting above a certain speed helps a lot, but speed also usually includes fragmentation, or at least good expansion.  



Link Posted: 5/13/2020 11:43:31 AM EDT
[#36]
the angle of the bullet when it hits determines how soon it yaws


Link Posted: 5/13/2020 12:51:05 PM EDT
[#37]
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I was getting ready to post that!
Here is part of that source:
WSTIAC Quarterly, Vol. 8, No. 1 - Small Caliber Lethality: 5.56mm Performance in Close Quarters Battle  
https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a519801.pdf
 (Bolded is my own emphasis)
Click To View Spoiler
There are a zillion factors involved in all of this.
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 5:26:10 PM EDT
[#38]
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Originally Posted By MRW:
this is false.  The researchers at Federal in the Lucky Gunner video put this myth down.  Faster than 2200 FPS the bullet travels too fast for human tissue to elastically absorb the energy, and it tears laterally like a ripped ripped rubber band.
Gel is not human tissue.
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Ironically, gel actually tends to display much more tearing from temporary cavitation than elastic tissue does...

Temporary cavitation at a given point along the track is primarily dependent on drag resistance which, as I've noted, is calculated using several variables besides velocity. It is not created from some pure form of energy "radiating" or "dumping" out of the bullet like many people think, but rather simply from the projectile physically pushing tissue away at a high rate of speed. The phenomenon can be compared to the wake left behind by a speedboat.

Bullet manufacturers are often fairly knowledgeable about how to achieve a measure of bullet performance or meet some certain parameter or criteria. They are less well versed in why these parameters are important and how they contribute to effectiveness. Their research is done by projectile engineers, not ballistic science doctors. The actual study of terminal ballistics is left to the appropriate subject authorities, and their info trickles down (albeit often imperfectly) to the agencies that buy the ammo. The manufacturers are not primarily concerned with deciding what the consumer's standards should be, but rather in developing designs that meet those standards.
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 5:41:15 PM EDT
[#39]
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Originally Posted By swampvol:
Velocity is only part of the equation.

A 5.56 moving at 3k fps without upset (yaw, expansion, or fragmentation) inside of the target will only icepick and cause little damage outside of the bullet's path.

Gel tests show this with what is called the neck of the wound channel. Even at well over the "magical" 2200fps, a 5.56 produces little damage in the first few inches into the gel and doesn't cause any damage away from the track until upset occurs.
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5.56 55gr fmj?
5.56 62gr ss109?
5.56 77gr MK262?
5.56 77gr TMK?

Link Posted: 5/13/2020 6:00:48 PM EDT
[#40]
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Originally Posted By Buffman_LT1:
Generally speaking though, water is going to give max expansion capabilities. I'm guessing in gel at 16-1700 it's still expanding, but not as well as it could be :D
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True. Nothing expands as well at lower velocities as at higher.
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 6:13:28 PM EDT
[#41]
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Originally Posted By Freakinout:


5.56 55gr fmj?
5.56 62gr ss109?
5.56 77gr MK262?
5.56 77gr TMK? 

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All of them.

Of course, it is extremely unlikely that a 77 gr TMK traveling at 3000 FPS would fail to upset - but if by some chance it did, then you would only see icepick wounding through flexible tissues.

(In reality, a TMK traveling that fast is likely to encounter the opposite problem - it will expand too much, resulting in underpenetration.)
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 6:44:23 PM EDT
[#42]
Military rifle bullet wound patterns by Martin L. Fackler

US M193 5.56x45mm - This bullet is fired from the US armed forces' first-generation smaller-calibre rifle, the M16A1. The large permanent cavity it produces, shown in the wound profile (Fig. 4), was observed by surgeons who served in Vietnam, but the tissue disruption mechanism responsible was not clear until the importance of bullet fragmentation as a cause of tissue disruption was worked out and described. As shown on the wound profile, this full-metal-jacketed bullet travels point-forward in tissue for about 12cm after which it yaws to 90°, flattens, and breaks at the cannelure (groove around bullet midsection into which the cartridge neck is crimped). The bullet point flattens but remains in one piece, retaining about 60 per cent of the original bullet weight. The rear portion breaks into many fragments that penetrate up to 7cm radially from the bullet path. The temporary cavity stretch, its effect increased by perforation and weakening of the tissue by fragments, then causes a much enlarged permanent cavity by detaching tissue pieces. The degree of bullet fragmentation decreases with increased shooting distance (as striking velocity decreases), as shown in Fig. 5. At a shooting distance over about 100m the bullet breaks at the cannelure, forming two large fragments and, at over 200m, it no longer breaks, although it continues to flatten somewhat, until 400m. This consistent change in deformation/fragmentation pattern has an important forensic application. It can be used to estimate shooting distance if the bullet is recovered in the body and has penetrated only soft tissue.

The effects of this bullet in the abdomen shot will show the temporary cavity effects as described for the Yugoslav AK-47 and, in addition, there will be an increased tissue disruption from the synergistic effect of temporary cavitation acting on tissue that has been weakened by bullet fragmentation. Instead of finding a hole consistent with the size of the bullet in hollow organs such as the intestine, we typically find a hole left by missing tissue of up to 7cm in diameter (see permanent cavity in Fig. 4). The thigh entrance wound will be small and punctuate. The first part of the tissue path will show minimal disruption. The exit will vary from the small punctuate hole described for the Soviet AK-47 to the stellate exit described for the Yugoslav AK-47, depending on how thick the thigh is where the bullet perforates it. In a sufficiently thick thigh, the M193 bullet fragmentation is also likely to cause a significant loss of tissue and possibly one or more small exit wounds near the large stellate one.
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I've posted some other Fackler quotes before where he's talked about he we have over emphasized velocity by itself, as opposed to how fragmentation plays such a huge part in it.  Or how "cutting" is the most efficient way to damage tissue,  then crushing, then finally tearing by stretching.  

Velocity usually leads to fragmentation, which leads to massive wounds.   That does not mean that there isn't a point in which a projectile's speed can exceed the elastic limit of tissue, it is just that without other factors (fragmentation, expansion, yawing), that "tearing by speed" isn't a great wounding mechanism by itself.  

In that article, he talks about wounds from two different 7.62 rounds.  One doing "handgun' damage because it ice picked (even at 713m/s =2340fps), the other doing more damage because it yawed, and it's crush area is three times as big, with much more secondary stretch damage....sometimes.
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 6:55:58 PM EDT
[#43]
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Originally Posted By 45custom:

All of them.

Of course, it is extremely unlikely that a 77 gr TMK traveling at 3000 FPS would fail to upset - but if by some chance it did, then you would only see icepick wounding through flexible tissues.

(In reality, a TMK traveling that fast is likely to encounter the opposite problem - it will expand too much, resulting in underpenetration.)
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It is extremely unlikely that an OTM would not open up inside a target at those velocities, and youre right that it may open up too much at those velocities with a TMK. And all spitzer bullets tumble at some point inside soft tissue as long as the target is wide enough.

The point being is that something needs to abruptly slow the Spitzer bullet down inside the target in order for it's energy to be dumped and cause any significant damage other than  just crushing damage. Yaw, expansion, and fragmentation do this, and I would imagine that hitting bone would too.

I would guess something with a large frontal area or flat nose moving fast enough would be an exception. I've read instances where Mini Balls during the Civil War moving at 1300fps have done extensive damage outside of the projectile's crushing track.
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 7:23:49 PM EDT
[#44]
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Originally Posted By 45custom:

All of them.

Of course, it is extremely unlikely that a 77 gr TMK traveling at 3000 FPS would fail to upset - but if by some chance it did, then you would only see icepick wounding through flexible tissues.

(In reality, a TMK traveling that fast is likely to encounter the opposite problem - it will expand too much, resulting in underpenetration.)
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Originally Posted By 45custom:
Originally Posted By Freakinout:


5.56 55gr fmj?
5.56 62gr ss109?
5.56 77gr MK262?
5.56 77gr TMK? 


All of them.

Of course, it is extremely unlikely that a 77 gr TMK traveling at 3000 FPS would fail to upset - but if by some chance it did, then you would only see icepick wounding through flexible tissues.

(In reality, a TMK traveling that fast is likely to encounter the opposite problem - it will expand too much, resulting in underpenetration.)


That could be said for every projectile in every round
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 7:56:13 PM EDT
[#45]
If the data from Terminal Ballistics Research, which largely focuses on 6mm and above rounds holds true for .223 caliber bullets, many of the target / match higher weight bullets might still perform decently at much lower velocity, especially if they strike bone.  Lighter weight FMJ's will always struggle to produce the results they can yield at high velocity, based solely on bullet design and the small caliber.
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 8:14:56 PM EDT
[#46]
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Originally Posted By swampvol:


It is extremely unlikely that an OTM would not open up inside a target at those velocities, and youre right that it may open up too much at those velocities with a TMK. And all spitzer bullets tumble at some point inside soft tissue as long as the target is wide enough. 

The point being is that something needs to abruptly slow the Spitzer bullet down inside the target in order for it's energy to be dumped and cause any significant damage other than  just crushing damage. Yaw, expansion, and fragmentation do this, and I would imagine that hitting bone would too.

I would guess something with a large frontal area or flat nose moving fast enough would be an exception. I've read instances where Mini Balls during the Civil War moving at 1300fps have done extensive damage outside of the projectile's crushing track.
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Originally Posted By swampvol:


It is extremely unlikely that an OTM would not open up inside a target at those velocities, and youre right that it may open up too much at those velocities with a TMK. And all spitzer bullets tumble at some point inside soft tissue as long as the target is wide enough. 

The point being is that something needs to abruptly slow the Spitzer bullet down inside the target in order for it's energy to be dumped and cause any significant damage other than  just crushing damage. Yaw, expansion, and fragmentation do this, and I would imagine that hitting bone would too.

I would guess something with a large frontal area or flat nose moving fast enough would be an exception. I've read instances where Mini Balls during the Civil War moving at 1300fps have done extensive damage outside of the projectile's crushing track.

Yup, If you really want to dive deep, you can enjoy this "light" read.
Spitzers that don't fragment tend to tumble/turn around because their weight is in their ass.

Shooting Holes in Wounding Theories: The Mechanics of Terminal Ballistics

II. D. Mechanics of Cavitation
Cavitation is caused by two sources: mechanical crushing and hydrodynamic pressure.

Mechanical crushing occurs directly in the path of penetration and is caused by the undeformed bullet nose or the expanded bullet "mushroom". At low velocities, flat or sloping surfaces merely push tissue aside. However, at higher velocities, tissue is macerated. For rigid solid bullets, a flat nose shape with a broad meplat (the flat portion of the bullet nose) will create a larger crushed cavity than a semi-spitzer or round nose shape. For expanding bullets, a broad and nearly flat expanded bullet shape will create a larger crushed cavity than an expanded "mushroom" with a classic round shape with gently sloping edges. Although an expanded bullet may have a diameter of 0.55 to 0.75 inch (14 to 19 mm), the effective meplat diameter is rarely more than the nominal bore diameter.

Hydrodynamic pressure causes damage from the pressure induced radial velocity extending from the stagnation point at the point of the bullet in its axis of travel to the outer edges of the bullet. The tissue velocity is zero at the infinitessimal point of the bullet nose, where the hydrodynamic pressure has its highest value. The velocity with which the tissue is displaced by this pressure is a function of the angle between the axis of penetration and the bullet nose (see the figure below). If the angle is small, the radial displacement velocity is small. For this reason, a larger diameter, flatter expanded bullet is more effective in producing cavitation from hydrodynamic pressure than a smaller diameter, steeply sloped bullet shape. Because the tissue displacement velocity is also proportional to the penetration velocity, the permanent cavitation can be much larger than the actual diameter of the bullet. This is how a .50 inch (13 mm) diameter expanded bullet can create a 1.5+ inch (39 mm+) permanent hole in game.


Link Posted: 5/13/2020 8:17:02 PM EDT
[#47]
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Originally Posted By AL_Safety:
If the data from Terminal Ballistics Research, which largely focuses on 6mm and above rounds holds true for .223 caliber bullets, many of the target / match higher weight bullets might still perform decently at much lower velocity, especially if they strike bone.  Lighter weight FMJ's will always struggle to produce the results they can yield at high velocity, based solely on bullet design and the small caliber.
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It makes perfect sense.  
SF's went to MK262....which traded velocity for mass and a lower fragmentation threshold.
Link Posted: 5/13/2020 8:24:18 PM EDT
[#48]
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Originally Posted By panthermark:

Military rifle bullet wound patterns by Martin L. Fackler


I've posted some other Fackler quotes before where he's talked about he we have over emphasized velocity by itself, as opposed to how fragmentation plays such a huge part in it.  Or how "cutting" is the most efficient way to damage tissue,  then crushing, then finally tearing by stretching.  

Velocity usually leads to fragmentation, which leads to massive wounds.   That does not mean that there isn't a point in which a projectile's speed can exceed the elastic limit of tissue, it is just that without other factors (fragmentation, expansion, yawing), that "tearing by speed" isn't a great wounding mechanism by itself.  

In that article, he talks about wounds from two different 7.62 rounds.  One doing "handgun' damage because it ice picked (even at 713m/s =2340fps), the other doing more damage because it yawed, and it's crush area is three times as big, with much more secondary stretch damage....sometimes.
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I quoted these same articles by Fackler and Dr. Roberts in the thread that got locked down. Then there are actual photos (few posts up) showing what a 110g Tac TX can do when traveling 10% less than the magical 2200fps, yet some people would still rather go with something a Federal Rep said...or actually didn't say.
Link Posted: 5/14/2020 1:58:58 AM EDT
[#49]
I used to get into the minutiae of ballistics. Still enjoy the conversation, but realized that you can split hairs all day long on this topic. However, I do think the prevalence of AR pistols and short barrels makes the decisions on SD ammo choices a bit more significant.

With standard barrel lengths, it’s pretty simple. Pick an option from the large list of approved loadings and call it good. Practically, velocity considerations really didn’t come into play. Shorter barrels make it a more realistic variable one needs to account for.

I still think the generic suggestion to pick any established SD load will serve most anyone well. At the same time, I become more open to alternative, non-mainstream options. In particular, I keep finding myself intrigued by the DRT line of ammo.

They’ve got a very low velocity threshold for consistent performance. And since they’re a fragmenting round, they don’t suffer from the “issues” of expanding rounds as velocity drops (i.e. lesser and lesser expansion). It seems they offer an all or nothing proposition. Especially given their unique construction. Basically a varmint round in terms of reliable fragmentation. With the added benefits of penetration, barrier performance, and heavier bullet weight.

As much as I may want to write them off as “gimmicky “, their performance in both gel and real world game testing is hard to discount.
Link Posted: 5/14/2020 2:13:11 AM EDT
[#50]
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Originally Posted By 45custom:
There is no consistent 'magic number' where rifle-like damage occurs, and I really wish people would drop this already.

Temporary cavitation is tissue 'splash', much like the splash from a rock when it hits the water, or the snow being pushed rapidly out to the side of a snowplow. The actual shockwave from a bullet is a largely unrelated phenomenon that has not been proven to contribute anything of terminal importance, at least so far as bullet-based small arms are concerned.

The reason there is no magic number is because temporary cavitation is dependent on more than one factor. For example, the frontal area and the shape of the projectile both play important roles; this is why temporary cavitation increases when a bullet starts expanding, even though the velocity is decreasing. In addition, effective fragmentation reduces the amount of force needed to tear tissue apart, as the little bits of metal slicing through flesh will reduce the ability of tissue to resist stretching. (Think of it as trying to pull apart a sheet of paper that is intact by pulling on it from both ends, versus trying to pull apart a sheet of paper that has been swiss cheesed with lots of holes in it.)

The result is that a 2900 FPS 7n6 bullet causes practically no wounding beyond crush effects in many elastic tissues, while a .45-70 or a shotgun slug traveling at 1600 FPS may be quite devastating.

Also of note: When people talk about the threshold required to cause temporary cavitation damage, this is usually in regard to elastic tissues. Inelastic organs such as the kidney and liver can be damaged by the temporary cavitation of even many handgun hollowpoints. Furthermore, just because the bullet meets the threshold required to inflict some temporary cavitation damage does not mean all of the tissue stretched will be destroyed, as the 'splash' slows down as it moves further away from the bullet track. A projectile might generate a temporary cavity of sufficient magnitude to damage tissue 1 centimeter away from the crush cavity, but not 1 inch away from the crush cavity, even if the temporary cavity itself is 3 inches wide.

@leid: Very good info on those Gold Dots. This supports Speer's manufacturer claim that the 62/64 gr should start expanding at 1600 FPS. It would seem that the expansion threshold on the 75 gr is ~1750 FPS give or take.
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Good post.
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