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Posted: 2/20/2006 5:03:00 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 2/20/2006 1:51:48 PM EDT
[#2]
IMO, the BEST combat round for a 9mm handgun is the BH 124grn +P Gold Dot or the 147grn Gold Dot. Gold Dots are bonded bullets which offer excellent penetration and weight retention, in additon to reliable and cosistant feeding/expansion. There are other good JHP's like the 127 and 147grn Winchester Ranger and Federal Hydrashok and HST. Federal and Winchester have introduced new bonded JHP rounds, but the Gold Dot is a more reliable and effective bullet.
Federal, Winchester and Remington bonded handgun bullets are LE only and difficult to get while Gold Dots in many different loadings can be had almost anywhere. I also believe the Gold Dot will be more effective than these new bonded JHP, but time will tell. I think a bonded bullet is extremely important to ensure adequate performance against heavy clothing and barriers. Not only is the Gold Dot bonded, but it can hold its own, if not outperform any other competitive JHP. I used the BH 124grn +P Gold Dot as my carry load and I have around 500 rounds just in case. The BH load has more velocity than the standard Speer load and its easier to find.... |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 2:01:08 PM EDT
[#3]
I like Federal +P+ 115 Grain HI-SHOK JHP.
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Posted: 2/20/2006 2:10:22 PM EDT
[#4]
147gr Tap or 124gr Gold Dot
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Posted: 2/20/2006 2:22:23 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 2/20/2006 3:08:34 PM EDT
[#6]
+P+115 federal or close
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Posted: 2/20/2006 6:31:44 PM EDT
[#7]
Corbon DPX
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Posted: 2/20/2006 6:55:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Please note the ammunition listed is in order of effectiveness with the top being the best. |
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Posted: 2/20/2006 7:34:34 PM EDT
[#9]
My personal choice for on-duty defense: Georgia Arms 124g GDHP +P.
All of my research into 9mm combat ammunition showed the Speer Gold Dot round placing in the top five of any HP round, regardless of the testing criteria. I'll keep my eyes open for some Black Hills 124g GDHP. I hear enough good about them that I wouldn't mind giving them a try. I would also note that the weight does make a difference. 147g ammo, out of my BHP, groups loosely, high and left. The same gun shooting 124/115g ammo will put everything dead center, nice and tight. |
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Posted: 2/21/2006 7:31:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Check to make sure your rig handles the +P (boosted pressure) ammo. My old Beretta manual says it is not rated for +P. |
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Posted: 2/21/2006 8:09:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Don't sweat over wonder-bullets all that much. Yes, some are definately better than others, so get the good ones. But in the great scheme of things, sidearms aren't really that effective anyhow, so use them as they were meant to be used -- as backups when primary weapon (rifle) goes down or is out of ammo, or to fight your way to a better weapon. Remember, anything worth shooting, is worth shooting twice.
I love 9mm. My advice: 4" of barrel (or more) and a 124gr HP (any kind) gets you 95% of the way there. As for bullets, the 127gr +p+ Ranger, 124 +p Gold Dot, the 124gr Golden Saber are all good choices. Stay away from 115's, they don't offer the necessary amount of sectional density to achieve an adequate amount of penetration. Many fall short of the 12" of penetration. The 124's get there. Many like the 147's because they EASILY achieve that penetration and much more, but they sacrifice a little bit of expansion doing so. 147's are a decent choice. Avoid any of these super-duper type bullets. These smaller-lesser known brands with exotic designs. They often fail miserably at expanding or penetrating. Stick to the big-dogs like Speer, Remington, Winchester, Federal. |
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Posted: 2/22/2006 3:57:05 AM EDT
[#12]
OLD BERETTA cant shoot +Ps First time Ive ever heard of this!
The Military use 124FMJ at +P pressure |
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Posted: 2/22/2006 4:20:34 AM EDT
[#13]
Boy have things change I remember that the Federal 115+p+ was hands down best! Ayoob Teachings
Old School 125JHP 357mag 1450/1500FPS was the best out of all! 12 inch penetration ?? maybe for POLICE/FBI but a common civi need that Her in South FL most guys wear T shirts and winter a lite jacket! so I think Feds 115+p+ will work for ME! Plus I wont be shooting threw car doors/Glass |
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Posted: 2/22/2006 7:12:40 AM EDT
[#14]
+1 we use the Hydrashock at work so I use it in my 9mm for personal carry. |
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Posted: 2/22/2006 7:42:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Federal HST's
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Posted: 2/22/2006 9:44:08 AM EDT
[#16]
1] I don't value what Ayoob says anymore. There's enough info out there about his massive contradictions and made-up stories. 2] 357 mag 125gr is probably still the best. Best combo of speed, expansion and penetratrion due to weight/section density. 3] I'm in Florida too. People dress lightly no doubt. But I prefer exit wound over no-exit wound. 2 holes > 1 hole. I disagree with the cardoors/windows statement. Don't ever close off your areas of effectiveness because you think that scenario will never happen. A lot of bad things happen on or around cars. In virtually all major riots in the last 15 years, there have been totally innocent people attacked in their vehicles by angry mobs of looters and rioters. Vehicle was stopped, rocked, tipped, smashed. People dragged out of vehicle and beaten nearly to death. If you pack a "car gun"...the best choice would be 147gr 9mm or a 230gr 45acp. Either pistol should be as high capacity as possible. |
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Posted: 2/22/2006 9:58:54 AM EDT
[#17]
The load I trust in my SIG P228 is the 124 grain +P Gold Dot. It's accurate, functions flawlessly in my gun, and I have always had good success with anything made by Speer.
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Posted: 2/22/2006 11:00:55 AM EDT
[#18]
carried a handgun for many years! Thanks for your ADVICE and I bet you think COPPER is full of it to?  YOU WILL NEVER SEE 147gr jhp in my Hand gun! FED 115+P+ good enough for me! 
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Posted: 2/22/2006 4:44:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Wasn't it Miami where these rounds failed to do what was asked of them? I'm not sure but if my memory serves me correct it was the 115's that were not penetrating enough in this fight. Which is why the FBI came up with the standards, and they don't meet them. My studies and findings are identical to don't-tread-on-me, so he must be very wise. Ayoob gets his info from marshall and sanow. If you want to follow them, go right ahead. I prefer something with more penetration. |
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Posted: 2/22/2006 6:45:33 PM EDT
[#20]
You're right. I went back and read it again. It says "extended use of +P, +P+, or submachine gun 9mm is not recommended." I suppose that means for "battle" conditions, go for it. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 3:26:51 AM EDT
[#21]
147 gr JHP, standard pressure. For everything else, I have MasterCard, .223 and 5.7x28 for CQB.
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Posted: 2/23/2006 4:23:52 AM EDT
[#22]
Those were 147s that failed in the Miami shootout. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 4:40:13 AM EDT
[#23]
Anything in .45ACP!!!
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Posted: 2/23/2006 4:45:50 AM EDT
[#24]
Boy Im really in for it!! Miami shoot out! SILVER TIPs I think 115
Poor trianing if you ask me! One guard had a 357mag I think he hit one time? I think I was in my 20`s when that happen! thats what happens when you practice with 38spl and go to hot 357mag rounds! I have a friend on swat who told me to stay away from 147 gr back in the mid 90`s! However they do penetrate very well if thats what you want! I have a Square Deal for hand gun reloading and reloaded the silvertip 115 to + pressures they mushroom like a pankcake compared to factory loading wich barely get the job done! thats been 10 years ago though! I wouldnt pick the 9mm silver tip115/147 at all unless it was hotter REMEMBER THE FBI MADE THE 10MM BITCH it was to HOT Down Loaed it Turn it into 40S&W When they could of stayed with the 45ACP!! and saved cash! |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 5:00:09 AM EDT
[#25]
Big Fed +1
Those who want more penetration MIGHT be giving up full expansion! Id rather have my slugs in the body! I would never want to hurt my Kids or bystandard! If you think and are rely on the bullet to do its magic you got another thing comeing! some JHP clog up acting like ball ammo! or like the 44mag to much penetration! thats why the 357 beats it! Very wise indeed! I will stick with the old school teachings Ayoob,Cooper,Wilson ,Jan L, Elmer K, my hero great shooter!! ! human bodies havent change much! but like I say federal 115 +p+ or close to it! BEEN PROVEN IN THE FIELD |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 7:24:16 AM EDT
[#26]
You are mistaken. 147s were used in response to this shootout. The 115s failed. Specifically 115 Silver Tips. FMJ and others are giving bad advice in this thread. Lots of uninformed garbage here. If you are a person looking for self defense ammo read the link and the ammo is listed by effectiveness from highest at the top to lowest at the bottom. All reaches the 12" minimum FBI spec. None clog in heavy clothing listed. The effectiveness is listed in order for bare and heavy clothing shots. Shots through auto glass are better with bonded core ammo which is often listed at the bottom of the lists. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 9:41:49 AM EDT
[#27]
Right you are - it's been a couple of years since I read that account. Sorry for any confusion, and thanks for pointing it out. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 12:06:20 PM EDT
[#28]
+1 for DevL. Hope one will never encounter a situation where a gun is needed, but if one does, he/she wants to use the most effective ammo they can use. For me, 127gr +P+ Ranger T, 124gr +P and 147gr GDHP are in 3 different gun listed in my CCW. Anyone think 115gr is sufficient, let them find out the hard way. Anyone who think just because you are not LE so your threat will act accordinly and become an easier target is plain stupid.
At least no one recommand Extreme Shock 
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Posted: 2/23/2006 2:35:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Yeah 115+p+ bad stuff thats why police used it for years!!
I guess my 38spl S&WAW loaded 158swchp +p are out to PUH LEEEASSSE!!! I want my rounds to go threw and hit inocent bystandars or my kids! PUHLEEEASE I simply stated I DONT NEED ALL THAT PENETRATION! IM A CIVI !!!READ ABOVE I WONT NEED IT!!115 federal bp 115jhp +P+ is FINE WITH ME!!!! HERE IN HOT FL What bad info! FBI stupid 10mm??? Im old school! tell me son just why 45acp didnt feel the bill???? I stick with the FACT I WOULD NEVER USE 147JHP are you saying its the best! SHOT PLACEMENT! not magic bullets!! seen deer drop with 22lr !! BTW NO way did I say MIAMI WAS A 147STHP!! YOU ARE MISTAKEN!! 115STHP So dont be busting my balls
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Posted: 2/23/2006 2:44:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Other words the above forum is the only correct ammo to use!
If you carry9mm FEDERAL BP 115 +P+ BE ADVISED ITS NOT FOR SELF PROTECTION MAYDAYMAYDAY WARNING I just wonder how many shooting and one shot stops?? 100`s NO CIVI SHOULD EVER CARRY THIS AMMO EVER!! I guess all the info Ive read for over 20 years is from the wrong author? and 20 years legal carry!! Who would of thought 147JHP were the best?? |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 3:45:05 PM EDT
[#31]
20 years ago, wound ballistic was not being throughly studied thus a lot of mis-conception was created. People think temporary cavity is important which has already be proven wrong by Dr. Falker. You want to stick with 115gr +P+, that's your choice. A lot of study has already proven that reliable expansion cope with sufficient penetration is needed for nutralizing the threat. 115gr bullet does not do well in that aspect. Police was not informed about their ammo choice, but now they are, and that's why you don't see 115gr being carried by cops anymore. Busting your balls? No, just don't want people to get bad advise.
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Posted: 2/23/2006 3:47:07 PM EDT
[#32]
+1 Great Minds think a like! I carry the 124 grain in my 9mm and the 230 grain +P in my .45ACP. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 4:06:16 PM EDT
[#33]
The question of 'best' is always interesting, isn't it? I'd submit that 'The Best' should be determined based on the intended application. For SHTF/war/combat, I think +P FMJ 115gr is probably it. You get some penetration and energy from high velocity. For personal/home protection and civilian personal defense I like 147gr Fedral Hydra-Shoks. I'll let the LEOs on the forum address the requirements for that application, as I lack the appropriate experience in this area. SP |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 4:51:22 PM EDT
[#34]
If you look at wound ballistics testing for modern 9mm Luger, notice that the lighter but faster / higher pressure loads generally have less penetration and uneven expansion. The bullets tend to look ragged.
Now look at the slower but heavier 9mm bullets. They generally have better penetration with even expansion. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 5:12:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Let me rephrase my first response, "Anything in .45ACP!!!
"The nine mickey mouse has to operate the absolute upper end of its capacity with ANY bullet weight to match standard level .40S&W and .45ACP loads. After that, the upper level .40S&W and .45ACP loads are so far out front it ain't a race. And, no, I don't want to be shot with one, AGAIN.  If you have a choice, choose well, not weak. |
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Posted: 2/23/2006 5:32:53 PM EDT
[#36]
45 Auto and 9mm Luger are about the same age. I'm not sure why people call 9mm "wonder 9" or some other nonsense when 9mm Luger has been around longer than 99% of all gun owners alive today. That said, 45 Auto JHP will expand to a significant overall diameter and does penetrate a tad deeper. However, you sacrifice a bit of ammo capacity (single stacked are 7-8 rd, double stacked are 13) and the ammo is a tad more expensive. 9mm yields more ammo (15rd - 19rd std cap, 33rd high cap), cheaper plinking ammo (8-10 cents a cartridge, new commercial ammo), and does the job all the same if you place the shots properly (.354" hole through zombie's head =  just like a .45" hole)
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Posted: 2/23/2006 6:21:51 PM EDT
[#37]
if the only variable were terminal ballistics, you might be right. but then, you'd probably be using a .44 mag. you have to take into consideration platform, ammo capacity, speed and accuracy, and ballistics. but what you're talking about is just one piece of the puzzle. and I'm not sure I would even concede that a good 230gr .45acp is that much more impressive ballistically than a good 147gr 9mm. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 8:35:11 AM EDT
[#38]
Big Bore +!
 I carried for years a combat elite 45acp! FOR MYSELF I would feel safe with a 230gr FMJ ! but I mostly used CCI FLYING ASHTRAY wich is old school but I know you know what Im talken about! I sold my Elite wich was a bad move since it was the most accurate gun out of box even better than my sigs! 8 years ago  Do they still makes the 200JHP FLYING ASHTRAY? BTW FEDERAL BP 115JHP+p+ HAS APROVEN TRACK RECORD!!! dont fix unless broke! Is there better for a civi shure can civis buy 127+p+ now legal ? SOMETIMES yes and no! if I could get it I would go with the 127+p+ AMMOMAN HAS THE 115FED +P+ SO ITS BEST FOR ME RIGHT NOW!!!!!! I would state if you are so worried about the 9mm go 45acp even if it clogs up you have a 45cal hole!! also I saw I guy shot with a DAVIS 380 useing FMJ/USA ammo the guy died on the spot hit center to mass hit about 3 yards away? Ive seen Deer shot and drop dead with 22lr! I shot a 250+ Pound PIG with a CCI Stinger 22lr drop dead on the spot! I love haveing farmer friends! Always beg to kill it. Ive seen lester shot a Big DOE at 75yrads or so with 22magnum it drop on the spot and DIED! Shot placement,pratice and practice! |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 12:06:00 PM EDT
[#39]
9mm Bullet results
While this is not exactly a good measure of wound ballistics performance, you can see what the bullets looked like after being fired into wet phonebooks. I'm sticking with the WWB 147gr JHP for my pistol. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 12:17:10 PM EDT
[#40]
I thought the old 230gn Golddot was called the flying asytray? I keep several boxes on the new 200gn +P Gold dot for my 45's if i ever decide to carry. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 12:25:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Winchester Ranger RA9T
Email: [email protected] Great price, nice guy, fast delivery. Just tell him how many 50 round boxes you want and your zip code and he'll give you a delivered price. Last time I ordered from him the price was a 500 round case of RA9T for $170.00 + shipping. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 12:47:51 PM EDT
[#42]
anything that goes bang when ya pull the trigger
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Posted: 2/24/2006 7:53:28 PM EDT
[#43]
Read an interesting post on another board about best self-defense choice from inside a car. If you can stand the noise from shooting in a confined environment, he said choose a wheel gun so you don't have spent cartridges flying in your face and bouncing around inside the car. While it is clear the attributes of a good reliable 9mm or .40 S&W are hard to beat in a lot of situations, the part about flying brass made a certain amount of sense to me. Glad I haven't abandoned the .357 entirely. The 124 grain Speer Gold Dot for a 9mm is fine by me. I haven't figured out yet what is the ideal load for a .357 with todays level of knowledge on terminal ballistics, couldn't find that on the self-defense post, or maybe I got tired of looking through it.
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Posted: 2/24/2006 8:10:10 PM EDT
[#44]
from speer-bullets.com's faq:
i miss the ashtray myself...it was an ugly spud of a round. ETA I carry EFMJ's in the winter, GD's or HST's any of them in the 124gr+p variety in the summer, though I still like the silvertips, my Beretta just eats them up. They run through her like greased goosecrap. I can't back this up with any empirical data, but there is just some sort of synergy between that particular gun and 115 "FBI failure" silvertips that makes the gun a blast to shoot with that load. What is in the gun ain't silvertips, but in a few of the back up mags there are some. |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 8:24:32 PM EDT
[#45]
I carry Winchester Ranger 147GR. SXT (RA9T) exclusively in my 9mm's.
The main reason is, I get it free. Second reason, it seems to be good stuff. Note to self: "Get more ammo from the Captain." ____________________________  |
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Posted: 2/24/2006 11:37:54 PM EDT
[#46]
Winchester Ranger RA9T
Federal HST 147Gn Gold Dot 124Gn standard or (+P) |
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Posted: 2/25/2006 12:18:58 AM EDT
[#47]
From the few tests I've seen/read online, most quality 9MM will expand to about ~.6". And the .45 about ~.7". |
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Posted: 2/25/2006 5:59:41 AM EDT
[#48]
DOCGUN!!
QUESTION do you know where a civi can get the 127+P+?? I would love some!!
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Posted: 2/25/2006 6:36:42 AM EDT
[#49]
Hirtenberger L7A1 would be my first choice. My pistols will handle it, so will my subguns so its my first choice for a 9mm combat ammo.
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Posted: 2/25/2006 6:58:48 AM EDT
[#50]
Ho. Lee. Crap.
This thread is all over the place. please let me reiterate that the testing done by Dr. Gary Roberts using IWBA/FBI protocol reveals that these rounds are the way to go. They penetrate deeply enough (past 12 inches) and expand reliably or as good as you can get through various barriers which is all you can expect a combat handgun cartridge to do. Those of you proposing the use of lightweight +P+ rounds...uh...unless your gun has a 2 inch barrel, why? You really like recoil and muzzle blast at the expense of possible underpenetration that much? |
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