1.  It will be 22 only.  It won't have a gas tube so I am thinking about pluging the gas port on the FSB.  I've seen guys tap the hole and put a screw in there.  What thread is best to use?  I have an SAE (inch) tap and die set.

2.  I know that 1x12 is usually considered best for the light 22 bullets.  I am going to get a .223 16 inch barrel (hard to find 1x12 in 16 inch).  If the twist is greater than 1x12 (say 1x9 or even 1x7), will there be a problem with stability?  I'm planning on using a my suppressor on the end and don't want to risk damage to it.

3. If the higher rate of twist is a problem with the standard bullets, will the Aquilla 60 gr SSS rounds stabilze in a 223 1x9 barrel?  Will they cycle my Ceiner kit?


Thanks for any help.

you could always get a 1/16 barrel and a modified ceiner kit.  

You can get a .22 barrel here:

www.kuehlprecisionfirearms.com/

Thanks for the suggestions but I've already purchased the barrel off the EE.  I got it cheap because the guy's smith said the chamber wasn't safe for .223.  I've already got a spare upper, a ceiner kit, and all the parts I need to put this together.  The suppressor was an afterthought, but I thought it would be a neat setup.  If it won't work, no big deal.  I just don't want baffle strikes or any damage to my suppressor.

I'd also like to seal up the gas port on the Front sight base so that I don't have as much crap shooting back towards me or under the handguards.

the 1/7 or 1/9 won't stabalize .22LR, however I don't know if it will cause baffle strikes, I do know it causes bad accuracy.  However the SSS .22LR (the 60gr loads) will stabilize out a 1/7 or 1/9.

Quoted: the 1/7 or 1/9 won't stabalize .22LR, however I don't know if it will cause baffle strikes, I do know it causes bad accuracy.  However the SSS .22LR (the 60gr loads) will stabilize out a 1/7 or 1/9.

That's what I was thinking.  I figured it would in the 1x7 but I wasn't sure if the 1x9 would stablize it.  

Any one shoot the SSS out of a 1x9?  How is it?

Anyone know if the Ciener will cycle the the SSS?

Any one shoot the SSS out of a 1x9? How is it?

Anyone know if the Ciener will cycle the the SSS?


it will shoot in the 1/9 but keyhole somewhat

the ceiner kit works sporadically with the SSS. a few good rounds then a stuck case. due to the longer bullet, i've had issues with it.  as with my 10/22. it works fine in the P-22. go figure?

Quoted: Any one shoot the SSS out of a 1x9? How is it? Anyone know if the Ciener will cycle the the SSS? it will shoot in the 1/9 but keyhole somewhat the ceiner kit works sporadically with the SSS. a few good rounds then a stuck case. due to the longer bullet, i've had issues with it.  as with my 10/22. it works fine in the P-22. go figure?

Figures.  I bought 1K of the SSS and only tried it in my P22.  It worked flawlessly so I hoped it would work well in my other 22s.  I guess we'll see.

why not buy a dedicated upper?

Quoted: why not buy a dedicated upper?

This is a "just for fun" project".  I already have all the parts.  The barrel cost me $50 so total cost to me to build this upper is only $50.

How about relining the barrel?

install your gas tube upside down and hack it off at the FSB.  The hole in the FSB leading to the barrel will be blocked, since the hole in the gas tube will be facing up.  

Quoted: install your gas tube upside down and hack it off at the FSB.  The hole in the FSB leading to the barrel will be blocked, since the hole in the gas tube will be facing up.

I like that idea.  Hopefully I've got a junk gas tube around.  I think I still have a pigtail tube, that was an expensive piece of junk.

Quoted: How about relining the barrel?

Who does this and about what would it cost?

Thanks

Quoted: install your gas tube upside down and hack it off at the FSB.  The hole in the FSB leading to the barrel will be blocked, since the hole in the gas tube will be facing up.

That is what I did with mine and it works like a charm.  I left a short stub hanging out of the FSB (for no good reason that I can remember) and plugged it with some JB-Weld left over from aonther project.

American Manufacturing  - $65.00 and up for liner installation.

If you are going to make a dedicated .22 then plug the gas port if you want to.  It really doesn't matter.

Some of you guys are off on the stabilizing the bullets issue.  You have it backwards.  The 1/9 or 1/7 will more than stabilize ANY .22LR bullet you put through it.  In fact, it will be over-stabilized.

Instability comes from too slow of a twist.  If you try to run the 60gr. SSS in a 1/12 twist, they will not stabilize and will tumble.  Shoot the SSS rounds in a 10/22 and they will keyhole the target.  A 1/9 twist is ideal to shoot the 60gr. SSS rounds.  A 1/9 will easily stabilize up to a 68gr. bullet, especially if it has round nose and flat base.  A 1/9 will also accurately shoot all the other .22LR rounds.  Over-stabilization is only bad for long-range shots because the bullet does not arc.

I am speaking from knowledge and experience.  I have a M4gery, with a 16" 1/9 twist, and a Gemtech HALO and I throw my Ciener kit in there and go blazing quite often.  Never had a baffle strike, or even a keyhole in the target.  You will get very accurate results with this configuration and subsonic ammo.  Even with $2 a box Rem. subsonics I can nearly put them in the same hole at 50 yards.  Wolf .22LR Match is the best for the buck.  (NOTE:  It is really Lapua match with the Wolf name on it.  Just MAKE SURE it is the Wolf 22LR match).

BTW --  be sure to shoot some regular 22LR through your can and you will then realize how well it works.  High Velocity 22LR makes the same noise through my can as 223 high power.  All the noise is from the sonic crack.  Subsonics through a can makes a pellet gun sound loud.  

The ONLY negative I will say about a AR15 --> 22LR rig is that 22LR will get your internal receiver area dirty as hell.  The cheap blazing fun is more than worth it though.

Quoted: If you are going to make a dedicated .22 then plug the gas port if you want to.  It really doesn't matter. Some of you guys are off on the stabilizing the bullets issue.  You have it backwards.  The 1/9 or 1/7 will more than stabilize ANY .22LR bullet you put through it.  In fact, it will be over-stabilized. Instability comes from too slow of a twist.  If you try to run the 60gr. SSS in a 1/12 twist, they will not stabilize and will tumble.  Shoot the SSS rounds in a 10/22 and they will keyhole the target.  A 1/9 twist is ideal to shoot the 60gr. SSS rounds.  A 1/9 will easily stabilize up to a 68gr. bullet, especially if it has round nose and flat base.  A 1/9 will also accurately shoot all the other .22LR rounds.  Over-stabilization is only bad for long-range shots because the bullet does not arc. I am speaking from knowledge and experience.  I have a M4gery, with a 16" 1/9 twist, and a Gemtech HALO and I throw my Ciener kit in there and go blazing quite often.  Never had a baffle strike, or even a keyhole in the target.  You will get very accurate results with this configuration and subsonic ammo.  Even with $2 a box Rem. subsonics I can nearly put them in the same hole at 50 yards.  Wolf .22LR Match is the best for the buck.  (NOTE:  It is really Lapua match with the Wolf name on it.  Just MAKE SURE it is the Wolf 22LR match). BTW --  be sure to shoot some regular 22LR through your can and you will then realize how well it works.  High Velocity 22LR makes the same noise through my can as 223 high power.  All the noise is from the sonic crack.  Subsonics through a can makes a pellet gun sound loud.   The ONLY negative I will say about a AR15 --> 22LR rig is that 22LR will get your internal receiver area dirty as hell.  The cheap blazing fun is more than worth it though.

This is what I was hoping to hear.  Thanks!

Quoted: If you are going to make a dedicated .22 then plug the gas port if you want to.  It really doesn't matter. Some of you guys are off on the stabilizing the bullets issue.  You have it backwards.  The 1/9 or 1/7 will more than stabilize ANY .22LR bullet you put through it.  In fact, it will be over-stabilized. Instability comes from too slow of a twist.  If you try to run the 60gr. SSS in a 1/12 twist, they will not stabilize and will tumble.  Shoot the SSS rounds in a 10/22 and they will keyhole the target.  A 1/9 twist is ideal to shoot the 60gr. SSS rounds.  A 1/9 will easily stabilize up to a 68gr. bullet, especially if it has round nose and flat base.  A 1/9 will also accurately shoot all the other .22LR rounds.  Over-stabilization is only bad for long-range shots because the bullet does not arc. ...

this directly contradicts all I've heard or read about drop-in .22LR kits.

I just put a dummy gas tube in mine.  It makes it look authentic and keeps the barrel nut from loostening up.  I think I paid $8 for it new from brownells with my discount.  If you look in the EE, you may find one for next to nothing.

My .02

Enigma,

First is correct on the stabilization.  The reason to go to the one in 12 is for better accuracy.  I put just about every make shape and weight of 22lr bullet through my Ceiner and one in 9 BM barrel.  Accuracy was pretty poor with just about everything.  What I could get was most rounds in a magazine to group ok, then I would get one or two out in space, 2 or 3 inches out at 25 yards.  I even tried the subsonic stuff.  Never a keyhole.

I now have a dedicated 22lr Kuehl barrel for my QCB, and everything groups well, and some are just plain scarey accurate.

Craig

Normal .22LR barrels are 1/16 twist.   60gr SSS will keyhole out of them (tried two different Marlin bolt-actions, did it in both).

1/7, 1/9, and 1/12 AR barrels will all stabilze any normal .22LR bullet.  Accuracy seems to usually be better with 1/12 than with the faster twists.  Possibly because the fast twist amplifies any imbalance in the bullets and increases wobble?

60gr SSS was stable (no keyholing) from my 1/9 with Ciener, but accuracy was no better than bulk 36gr.  The one time I tried them they functioned OK, the other time they jammed 2 out of 3 times.  

If you put the gas tube in upside down and don't cut it off you could turn it back over later to use .223 again.  If you do cut it off, leaving a little sticking out to grab onto if you ever need to remove it might be a good idea.  Without the gas tube blowing stuff all over the inside of the upper it'll stay a lot cleaner than just using a drop-in kit.

tag

Quoted: Normal .22LR barrels are 1/16 twist....Accuracy seems to usually be better with 1/12 than with the faster twists.  Possibly because the fast twist amplifies any imbalance in the bullets and increases wobble?

I believe you are absolutely correct about that. For example, one of my 1/12 barrels with an M261 will shoot 3/8" groups at 25 yards all day long or until you get tired of doing it, just the same as my DPMS dedicated .22 upper with 1/16. But at 50 yards, the DPMS is still grouping at 3/4" or thereabouts while the groups from the 1/12 barrel have blown out to an average of 1 1/4" (and average means some were bigger than that).

Now, SOME here have reported very good accuracy from 1/9 and even 1/7 barrels, but they seem to be in the distinct minority. Others have reported disappointing accuracy from a 1/12; again this seems to be the exception, not the rule. Based on my own experiments/experience and what I've noted from posts here and elsewhere, it seems you have somewhere between a 2 in 3 and a 3 in 4 chance of getting fairly decent accuracy* from a 1/12 barrel, but only about a 1 in 4 to 1 in 3 chance of getting good accuracy from a 1/9 or faster.

*Roughly equivalent to a stock out of the box Ruger 10/22, or in the neighborhood of 5/8" groups at 25 yards.

PS: In the post above, the fellow says "I can nearly put them in the same hole at 50 yards." This sounds impressive at first, but what does it REALLY mean? What size is that hole? Let me shoot a 50-round group and I'll have them all "nearly in the same hole" at 50 yards, too, with just about ANY of my .22s. Now, the hole might be an inch or more across, but they'll all be "in" it--or "nearly" so!

Quoted: Quoted: If you are going to make a dedicated .22 then plug the gas port if you want to.  It really doesn't matter. Some of you guys are off on the stabilizing the bullets issue.  You have it backwards.  The 1/9 or 1/7 will more than stabilize ANY .22LR bullet you put through it.  In fact, it will be over-stabilized. Instability comes from too slow of a twist.  If you try to run the 60gr. SSS in a 1/12 twist, they will not stabilize and will tumble.  Shoot the SSS rounds in a 10/22 and they will keyhole the target.  A 1/9 twist is ideal to shoot the 60gr. SSS rounds.  A 1/9 will easily stabilize up to a 68gr. bullet, especially if it has round nose and flat base.  A 1/9 will also accurately shoot all the other .22LR rounds.  Over-stabilization is only bad for long-range shots because the bullet does not arc. ... this directly contradicts all I've heard or read about drop-in .22LR kits.

Technically, bullet stabilization is not a factor of bullet weight but rather the length of a bullet for a particular caliber.  The longer the bullet is in relation to its diameter, the more spin is required to stabilize it.

This can be calculated using the following formula:

150 x diameter squared divided by bullet length = required spin

Example: for a .224 caliber bullet .70 inches long:

150 x .224 x .224 divided by .70 = 10.752 inches

So, for the example bullet, a spin rate of 1/10.752 or faster is required

The formula can also provide the maximum bullet length which can be stabilized by a given barrel twist. The formula becomes:

150 x diameter squared divided by twist rate

Example: for a .224 caliber barrel of 1/12 twist:

150 x .224 x .224 divided by 12 = .62 inches

The barrel will stabilize a bullet that is .62 inches,  or shorter.

If you ever get into specialized reloading (i.e. Subsonic .223), this becomes very important.  For example, boat tail bullets require a higher twist rate to stabilize.  So, if you want your rifle to shoot the heaviest bullet it can, then use round-nose, flat base bullets.

Mike_L is absolutely correct about the correct about the effects of twist on accuracy.  One of the factors in optimum accuracy is to decide on the heaviest bullet you intend to shoot and then have a barrel made with the slowest twist rate that will still stabilize that bullet.

That is one of the coolest things I have ever read.

Here is another observation on .22LR in an AR15.  

A .223 AR15 barrel normally has grooves that are .001 to .002" deeper than what is optimum for a .22LR.  This can have a detrimental affect on accuracy.  Another thing that can compound this situation is a worn .223 barrel.  If you have been bump firing .223, the lands are now worn down a little (and remember, it is only the lands that are holding the .22LR bullet here), plus the throat is advanced & the bore is probably heavily copper fouled.  If your barrel was of poor to average quality in the rifling department to begin with, this all equals terrible accuracy with .22LR.

Twist also has some affect here.  For .22LR you want as close to 1/16 as possible.  So if you find a used GI m16 1/12 barrel on the equiptment exchange, don't think that you just cut a hog in the asshat
If you get a brand new HIGH QUALITY .223 barrel with 1/9 twist, I bet your Ceiner unit will shoot very well.  Not as good as a dedicated .22LR with correct size grooves and 1/16, but it will shoot very well.  I normally get an inch at 50 yards.

So my advice to fq1234 is to test fire your setup for accuracy.  If does not make you happy, send the barrel out to be relined with the correct tight groove 1/16 liner.  The installation of this liner will block off the gas port.  If you want to spend even more money, you can cut off the chamber insert on your Ceiner and have the barrel correctly chambered to .22LR so your projectile does not have to walk a tight rope for an inch and a half before it hits any rifling

Oddly, my 1/12 .223 barrels seem to shoot .22s more accurately with a bit of copper fouling in them, and then some .22 fouling on top of that. Don't have full proof yet, but working on it, and it's trending that way so far. The more .22s I put through them, the more accurate they shoot.

Also oddly, I found a brand of .22LRs that miked a full .225 diameter. I thought these would be just the ticket for a .223 barrel, but they were among the least accurate .22 ammo I tried in them. They shot very well in regular .22 rifles, and were the MOST accurate brand in a couple of them (about 20 rifles tested).

Every gun and ammo combination is a law unto itself. You can never be SURE what's going to happen until you burn some powder and then lay a dial caliper on the targets.

Quoted: A .223 AR15 barrel normally has grooves that are .001 to .002" deeper than what is optimum for a .22LR.  ...  If you have been bump firing .223, the lands are now worn down a little (and remember, it is only the lands that are holding the .22LR bullet here), plus the throat is advanced ...

I'm sure that the lead in .22LR bullets is soft enough that they "squish" out to completely touch the inside of the bore, even if it's larger than the bullet's initial diameter.  If it didn't, gas would be blowing by the sides and leading would be extremely heavy.   And I've read that rifling wear shows up mostly as a rounding of the corners.

So my advice to fq1234 is to test fire your setup for accuracy.  If does not make you happy, send the barrel out to be relined with the correct tight groove 1/16 liner.  ... you can cut off the chamber insert on your Ceiner and have the barrel correctly chambered to .22LR so your projectile does not have to walk a tight rope for an inch and a half before it hits any rifling

This part I agree with.   Try what you have, and if it works for you, great.  If not, take steps to improve it.

If you do have the barrel lined, have the chamber adapter lined into it.  You'll have to slightly modify the rail plate to get the adapter into the upper, but it's just a few minutes with a file.  (You have to change the "C" notches at the chamber adapter end into an "L" so it'll slide in w/o spreading.)  The liner will hold the adapter in place and you'll have a proper chamber with no jump to the rifling.

Quoted: That is one of the coolest things I have ever read.

+1

Barrel relining is a possibility.  From what you guys are saying, I shouldn't worry about baffle strikes in my suppressor.  I'm just waiting on the barrel to arrive, I'll post pics when it does and everything is complete.  I feel guilty about ruining a perfectly good gas tube so I think I will just leave the hole open until I determine whether I need to get the barrel relined.

Thanks for all the help.

Just put the gas tube in upside down, but don't cut it off.  That'll block the hole so you won't have gas blowing all over the inside of your HGs but you can always take it out and use it later.

My barrel came today.  I haven't measured the twist but by comparing it to a couple of other barrels I have, I think it may be 1-12.

I actually found a scrap gas tube that I had cut down a couple of years back when I was building an AR pistol.  It worked perfectly.  

All that's left to do is order a set of FSB pins and pound them in, for some reason the barrel didn't come with the pins.

Below is a pic I took tonight.  Not a great pic, but you get the idea.

THanks to all for your help.

DO let us know how it shoots. And it would be very helpful to us if you can figure out the twist.

FWIW, I've tested three different 1:12 barrels and NOTHING shoots as accurately in them as Winchester Dynapoints. CCI Minimags did fairly well in one barrel. Dynapoints also did best in the one 1:9 barrel I tested, but not as well as in the 1:12s.

Quoted: DO let us know how it shoots. And it would be very helpful to us if you can figure out the twist. FWIW, I've tested three different 1:12 barrels and NOTHING shoots as accurately in them as Winchester Dynapoints. CCI Minimags did fairly well in one barrel. Dynapoints also did best in the one 1:9 barrel I tested, but not as well as in the 1:12s.

I tried to measure the twist with a weighted string and a bore light.  Sure seems to be 1-12 but I didn't feel as though my technique was incredibly accurate.  I'm kind of suprised because I didn't think there were too many 1-12 16 inch barrels out there.

I won't be able to make it out the range for another two weeks or so.  I'll try several different types of ammo but I am interested in shooting more of the subsonic stuff than anything else.  I will post and let you guys know about its accuracy.

The easiest way to measure the twist is with a cleaning rod and a brush or jag.  Mark a place on the rod top, and push the rod in.  When the rod twists back up to the top, measure the length between that mark and your original mark.  You can use two or three twists to get really persnickity and take the average.

Looks like areal nice pea shooter.

Craig

Quoted:

I'm sure that the lead in .22LR bullets is soft enough that they "squish" out to completely touch the inside of the bore, even if it's larger than the bullet's initial diameter.  If it didn't, gas would be blowing by the sides and leading would be extremely heavy.   And I've read that rifling wear shows up mostly as a rounding of the corners.

That "squish" is known as obturation.  It is common with black powder and lead bullets.  Not common with smokeless powder.

Yes, the .22 bullets might bump up to fill the grooves, or they might not especially if they have a large freebore to pass before hitting the rifling.  

Rifling wear starts with rounding the corners of the lands.  It grows into the lands wearing down and the grooves developing pits.  My point is: use a new barrel.  The better the barrel, the better your accuracy.

As far as baffle strikes are concerned, they are far more likely with a heavily worn barrel.  Personally, when using a .22 conversion, I would not put a good .22LR suppressor on the end of a 1/12 M16 barrel that was used on a machinegun.  I would put it on any new AR15/M16 barrel.  If there was any doubt as to the origin of the barrel, I would not use it with the suppressor.

To measure the twist, just push a cleaning rod with snug patch most of the way down the muzzle (from the front).  Put a paper clip on the rod pointing straight up, right at the muzzle(or flash hider).  Pull the rod out making sure the jag does not loosen, stop when paper clip is pointing straight up again after 1 complete turn.  Measure from muzzle to paper clip.

Quoted: Quoted: DO let us know how it shoots. And it would be very helpful to us if you can figure out the twist. FWIW, I've tested three different 1:12 barrels and NOTHING shoots as accurately in them as Winchester Dynapoints. CCI Minimags did fairly well in one barrel. Dynapoints also did best in the one 1:9 barrel I tested, but not as well as in the 1:12s. I tried to measure the twist with a weighted string and a bore light.  Sure seems to be 1-12 but I didn't feel as though my technique was incredibly accurate.  I'm kind of suprised because I didn't think there were too many 1-12 16 inch barrels out there. I won't be able to make it out the range for another two weeks or so.  I'll try several different types of ammo but I am interested in shooting more of the subsonic stuff than anything else.  I will post and let you guys know about its accuracy.

That loks like an Oly Multimatch upper...if so, likely to be 1:10 twist. I had one, it was a 3/4" shooter @ 100 in .223.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: DO let us know how it shoots. And it would be very helpful to us if you can figure out the twist. FWIW, I've tested three different 1:12 barrels and NOTHING shoots as accurately in them as Winchester Dynapoints. CCI Minimags did fairly well in one barrel. Dynapoints also did best in the one 1:9 barrel I tested, but not as well as in the 1:12s. I tried to measure the twist with a weighted string and a bore light.  Sure seems to be 1-12 but I didn't feel as though my technique was incredibly accurate.  I'm kind of suprised because I didn't think there were too many 1-12 16 inch barrels out there. I won't be able to make it out the range for another two weeks or so.  I'll try several different types of ammo but I am interested in shooting more of the subsonic stuff than anything else.  I will post and let you guys know about its accuracy. That loks like an Oly Multimatch upper...if so, likely to be 1:10 twist. I had one, it was a 3/4" shooter @ 100 in .223.

I picked up everything separately, it is a more of a mutt.  I had the Cierro A2 upper sitting around, along with the Ciener kit.  I picked up the barrel for $50 off the EE and also grabbed the FF tube off the EE.

I will give the rod/patch method a try tomorrow if I have time.