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Posted: 9/20/2021 4:25:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Try a different lower.
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Posted: 9/21/2021 8:01:20 AM EDT
[#2]
I can try that ... and will ... but what would the lower have to do with it? I don't believe anything from the upper "contacts" the lower as far as when it is functioning?
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Posted: 9/21/2021 9:09:22 AM EDT
[#3]
I have a similar issue...sometimes it feels like it's short stroking, other times it feels like it might actually be bolt bounce? Most of the issues I had were when I was shooting suppressed and shooting steel case (Wolf and Tula) but even without a can Wolf and Tula ammo were kind of...not reliable in it. Wolf was especially unreliable though it was a very old batch (easily from right after they went from green lacquer to grey polymer, maybe 2002-2003ish?). Tore off the rim on a few rounds (so had to punch the case out with a rod), other failures to extract, etc. Tula from the same rough vintage (all pre-2007) was remarkably more reliable
 The 90 rounds of brass (XM193) I put through it didn't have many issues save for a couple of times, the hammer would drop when the bolt was slightly out of battery...pulling the bolt back a little then pushing it forward to make sure it locked would solve it, but yeah. A couple of times I would fire and then manually push the bolt forward to make sure it seated, and caught the bolt not fully seated that way, randomly...I would say this happened once a magazine on average, maybe twice? So out of the 90 rounds of brass it happened 5-6 times I'd say. This was unsuppressed and suppressed, with the gas set accordingly. Again I don't know if it was short stroking, or bolt bounce. With the brass, it felt more like bolt bounce but without a high speed camera trained on it to see...no idea. Also, note that at this point I have 210 rounds through it total, and only 3 mags of them were brass...so maybe it's just a break in/wear in issue Times are tight, otherwise I'd have bought it out more Also - mine is a BRN-180S, 11.5" barrel, so that might have a difference. It's also worth noting - this does not happen on the first round for me at all, but I also tend to yank the charging handle vs hitting the bolt release. The only times this has happened to me were shooting normally. |
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Posted: 9/21/2021 9:33:54 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can try that ... and will ... but what would the lower have to do with it? I don't believe anything from the upper "contacts" the lower as far as when it is functioning? could be something with the positioning of the bolt catch and/or how it positions the mag. notice any egregious drag on the bolt when cycling manually with an empty mag? does the mag wobble around excessively in the magwell? Haven't experienced this on any of my 180's during regular operation BUT if I manually cycle my 180s 10.5" slowly I can make it fail to close/lock similarly |
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Posted: 9/22/2021 1:33:47 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a similar issue...sometimes it feels like it's short stroking, other times it feels like it might actually be bolt bounce? Most of the issues I had were when I was shooting suppressed and shooting steel case (Wolf and Tula) but even without a can Wolf and Tula ammo were kind of...not reliable in it. Wolf was especially unreliable though it was a very old batch (easily from right after they went from green lacquer to grey polymer, maybe 2002-2003ish?). Tore off the rim on a few rounds (so had to punch the case out with a rod), other failures to extract, etc. Tula from the same rough vintage (all pre-2007) was remarkably more reliable The 90 rounds of brass (XM193) I put through it didn't have many issues save for a couple of times, the hammer would drop when the bolt was slightly out of battery...pulling the bolt back a little then pushing it forward to make sure it locked would solve it, but yeah. A couple of times I would fire and then manually push the bolt forward to make sure it seated, and caught the bolt not fully seated that way, randomly...I would say this happened once a magazine on average, maybe twice? So out of the 90 rounds of brass it happened 5-6 times I'd say. This was unsuppressed and suppressed, with the gas set accordingly. Again I don't know if it was short stroking, or bolt bounce. With the brass, it felt more like bolt bounce but without a high speed camera trained on it to see...no idea. Also, note that at this point I have 210 rounds through it total, and only 3 mags of them were brass...so maybe it's just a break in/wear in issue Times are tight, otherwise I'd have bought it out more Also - mine is a BRN-180S, 11.5" barrel, so that might have a difference. It's also worth noting - this does not happen on the first round for me at all, but I also tend to yank the charging handle vs hitting the bolt release. The only times this has happened to me were shooting normally. I experienced a lot of what you describe and again mine was all quality brass factory ammo (no wolf gold) and all quality mags ... it didn't matter if I used the bolt release OR pulled the charging handle back and just let it go ... 8 times out of 10 I would look and sure enough it would not be in full battery. Then once firing my experience was just like yours, stoppage once or twice (and this is after the initial loading issue) every mag |
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Posted: 9/22/2021 1:35:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: could be something with the positioning of the bolt catch and/or how it positions the mag. notice any egregious drag on the bolt when cycling manually with an empty mag? does the mag wobble around excessively in the magwell? Haven't experienced this on any of my 180's during regular operation BUT if I manually cycle my 180s 10.5" slowly I can make it fail to close/lock similarly no, charging the action is the smoothest semi-auto action I have every pulled ! |
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Posted: 9/22/2021 1:59:28 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I experienced a lot of what you describe and again mine was all quality brass factory ammo (no wolf gold) and all quality mags ... it didn't matter if I used the bolt release OR pulled the charging handle back and just let it go ... 8 times out of 10 I would look and sure enough it would not be in full battery. Then once firing my experience was just like yours, stoppage once or twice (and this is after the initial loading issue) every mag Wolf Gold is actually good M193-spec ammo It's the "Wolf Military" and other steel case shit that's not great...I wonder if it's just a recoil spring thing with bolt bounce? I wonder if they have it specced to run with a specific kind of fire control group and standard AR15 bargain bin parts ain't cutting it, like I have in mine FWIW mine is on a BRN180 lower (Brownells part 100-036-374WB; the one that looks like a retro AR180 lower with a rail for the stock). I haven't tried it on a "normal" AR lower yet... If it is bolt bounce, it shouldn't be too bad to mitigate? Maybe adding some more weight to the bolt carrier or something? (or making it lighter? Dunno..) |
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Posted: 9/22/2021 3:02:14 PM EDT
[#8]
I kind of wonder if a couple of tiny cemented in delrin "pads" where the bolt carrier contacts the face of the upper might alleviate the issue...or make it worse
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Posted: 9/22/2021 10:06:57 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can try that ... and will ... but what would the lower have to do with it? I don't believe anything from the upper "contacts" the lower as far as when it is functioning? i think the bottom of the bolt carrier pushes down on the hammer, pushes it down against the disconnector. and my BRN-180 works fine. Geissele S3G trigger group. |
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Posted: 9/22/2021 10:22:50 PM EDT
[#10]
I've had similar problem when I was running a very early Gen 1. I had to really squeeze the upper down to get the takedown pin inserted. This actually twisted the upper enough to cause binging of the bolt carrier.
If you had to squeeze it much to push in the pin then try a different lower or sand the rear of the guide rod assembly (the plastic part) until it closes easy. |
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Posted: 9/23/2021 8:53:07 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i think the bottom of the bolt carrier pushes down on the hammer, pushes it down against the disconnector. and my BRN-180 works fine. Geissele S3G trigger group. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I can try that ... and will ... but what would the lower have to do with it? I don't believe anything from the upper "contacts" the lower as far as when it is functioning? i think the bottom of the bolt carrier pushes down on the hammer, pushes it down against the disconnector. and my BRN-180 works fine. Geissele S3G trigger group. LOL .... the lower it is on has a Geissele trigger in it ! I am going to swap out the 2 recoil springs with new ones and see ... It really seems to me that stronger recoil springs would fix it and I don't believe it's bolt bounce ETA - not LOL'ing at you just the coincidence of having same trigger |
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Posted: 9/23/2021 8:54:48 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've had similar problem when I was running a very early Gen 1. I had to really squeeze the upper down to get the takedown pin inserted. This actually twisted the upper enough to cause binging of the bolt carrier. If you had to squeeze it much to push in the pin then try a different lower or sand the rear of the guide rod assembly (the plastic part) until it closes easy. thanks for the idea but nope ... my BRN attaches to my lower very easily, when I pull the charging handle back it feels butter smooth |
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Posted: 9/23/2021 8:56:57 AM EDT
[#13]
In that first range trip I put maybe 300ish rounds through it ... I am always willing to chalk it up to needing to "break in" some. I am gonna try to get it out this weekend and put maybe another 500 - 700 through it.
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Posted: 9/27/2021 12:56:48 PM EDT
[#14]
for anyone looking for update ..... tried the upper on 2 different lowers with same results. Swapped out the two recoil springs, made it no better
I will continue to shoot it to see if it just needs "broken in". Once I know I have over 1,000 rounds through it, if it is still doing it I will just sell it |
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Posted: 9/27/2021 4:37:30 PM EDT
[#15]
Have you contacted Brownells about it? They might be able to help.
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Posted: 9/27/2021 5:18:18 PM EDT
[#16]
I kinda wonder if this is a shorty issue, vs a 16" barrel...I wonder if the length/weight of the recoil system and difference in gas impulse to the piston is having an effect here?
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Posted: 9/28/2021 2:56:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I kinda wonder if this is a shorty issue, vs a 16" barrel...I wonder if the length/weight of the recoil system and difference in gas impulse to the piston is having an effect here? But it does it even when just charging the rifle for the first time .... and I thought maybe it is just on full loaded mags but it doesn't seem to matter |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 2:57:59 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have you contacted Brownells about it? They might be able to help. nah not yet .... I know they will say to send it in which is fine I just don't feel like fucking with that at the moment. |
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Posted: 9/28/2021 3:46:11 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But it does it even when just charging the rifle for the first time .... and I thought maybe it is just on full loaded mags but it doesn't seem to matter Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I kinda wonder if this is a shorty issue, vs a 16" barrel...I wonder if the length/weight of the recoil system and difference in gas impulse to the piston is having an effect here? But it does it even when just charging the rifle for the first time .... and I thought maybe it is just on full loaded mags but it doesn't seem to matter Oh, really? For me it's only under full recoil/shooting, and it's just a gentle nudge that seats it all the way...it only started happening after about half a mag of Wolf, but that was only like magazine number 3 through it in the first place Anyway, after that last range session I scrubbed the hell out of the bore and chamber with a proper AR15/M16 chamber brush...maybe some remanent of the manufacturing process is gumming things up? I dunno man, I'll find out more on mine when I get it out next time...I have a few AUG mags loaded up with some M855 that I'm thinking of emptying into AR mags and giving this another go.. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 8:35:30 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh, really? For me it's only under full recoil/shooting, and it's just a gentle nudge that seats it all the way...it only started happening after about half a mag of Wolf, but that was only like magazine number 3 through it in the first place Anyway, after that last range session I scrubbed the hell out of the bore and chamber with a proper AR15/M16 chamber brush...maybe some remanent of the manufacturing process is gumming things up? I dunno man, I'll find out more on mine when I get it out next time...I have a few AUG mags loaded up with some M855 that I'm thinking of emptying into AR mags and giving this another go.. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I kinda wonder if this is a shorty issue, vs a 16" barrel...I wonder if the length/weight of the recoil system and difference in gas impulse to the piston is having an effect here? But it does it even when just charging the rifle for the first time .... and I thought maybe it is just on full loaded mags but it doesn't seem to matter Oh, really? For me it's only under full recoil/shooting, and it's just a gentle nudge that seats it all the way...it only started happening after about half a mag of Wolf, but that was only like magazine number 3 through it in the first place Anyway, after that last range session I scrubbed the hell out of the bore and chamber with a proper AR15/M16 chamber brush...maybe some remanent of the manufacturing process is gumming things up? I dunno man, I'll find out more on mine when I get it out next time...I have a few AUG mags loaded up with some M855 that I'm thinking of emptying into AR mags and giving this another go.. that's a good thought on the chamber, I'll take a good bore brush to it ... and when mine does it, it is also very easy to seat it, takes minimal force for me to grab the charging handle and push it the last 1/2" to get it all the way in battery |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 8:46:47 AM EDT
[#21]
Are you using Gen 3 pmags? IME the feed angle change results in less drag on the BCG when cycling.
I would make sure it's scrubbed clean and well lubed, if it's not working great on a G3 Pmag this next range trip, I would call Brownells and ask for a replacement upper. Any marks on hand cycled ammo indicating it's dragging on the feed ramps? Is this being fired from the shoulder or freehand like a regular pistol? I've got two BRN 180 lowers and my plan is to build a short and long version. Hopefully I don't experience issues. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 10:32:01 AM EDT
[#22]
My gen2 brn-180s upper is currently back at PWS for service with this exact issue. When hand cycling it is the smoothest action I've ever felt, and almost no gas to the face. As a lefty this is huge.
However, with a suppressor attached and in the suppressed setting it seems to be under gassed. Bolt won't close all the way about 25% of the time, and the hammer dropping will finish closing the bolt. With a suppressor attached in the non suppressed setting it is so over gassed it will lock back on a mag that still has ammo in it. This is with about 200-250 rounds through it. My gas block also locked up when it got hot and was tough to move after that. Sent it off to PWS and it was received by them on 9/9. Called on Friday 9/24 for an update and they are running 6-8 weeks for repairs. It'll be a while, but I'll update the thread when I have more info. Really hoping they can get it sorted out. This seems like a perfect semi-auto for me due to my left handedness and the folding abilities of the rifle. |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 3:34:34 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you using Gen 3 pmags? IME the feed angle change results in less drag on the BCG when cycling. I would make sure it's scrubbed clean and well lubed, if it's not working great on a G3 Pmag this next range trip, I would call Brownells and ask for a replacement upper. Any marks on hand cycled ammo indicating it's dragging on the feed ramps? Is this being fired from the shoulder or freehand like a regular pistol? I've got two BRN 180 lowers and my plan is to build a short and long version. Hopefully I don't experience issues. - I used Pmags but not sure on gen will have to check but I also used lancer mags and duramags and it did not seem to matter which mag - I see no indication it has anything to do with the feed ramps - Fired "properly" from the shoulder on a bench and also standing, no hip firing or rambo action was used. I run it on a SBR'd lower so no pistol |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 3:35:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My gen2 brn-180s upper is currently back at PWS for service with this exact issue. When hand cycling it is the smoothest action I've ever felt, and almost no gas to the face. As a lefty this is huge. However, with a suppressor attached and in the suppressed setting it seems to be under gassed. Bolt won't close all the way about 25% of the time, and the hammer dropping will finish closing the bolt. With a suppressor attached in the non suppressed setting it is so over gassed it will lock back on a mag that still has ammo in it. This is with about 200-250 rounds through it. My gas block also locked up when it got hot and was tough to move after that. Sent it off to PWS and it was received by them on 9/9. Called on Friday 9/24 for an update and they are running 6-8 weeks for repairs. It'll be a while, but I'll update the thread when I have more info. Really hoping they can get it sorted out. This seems like a perfect semi-auto for me due to my left handedness and the folding abilities of the rifle. I forgot to mention mine does this also ... I'm telling you'll its the recoil springs are too weak ... way too weak ETA - I'm gonna see if I can get a shop I know to make me some replacement springs ... as I said in an earlier post I bought replacement spring kit from Brownells but it behaved the exact same |
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Posted: 9/29/2021 4:15:25 PM EDT
[#25]
So you feel like having a shop basically make some custom springs and all the hassle with that, but don’t want to deal with the hassle of sending it back to the manufacturer and having them look at it?
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Posted: 9/29/2021 5:34:10 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I forgot to mention mine does this also ... I'm telling you'll its the recoil springs are too weak ... way too weak ETA - I'm gonna see if I can get a shop I know to make me some replacement springs ... as I said in an earlier post I bought replacement spring kit from Brownells but it behaved the exact same Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My gen2 brn-180s upper is currently back at PWS for service with this exact issue. When hand cycling it is the smoothest action I've ever felt, and almost no gas to the face. As a lefty this is huge. However, with a suppressor attached and in the suppressed setting it seems to be under gassed. Bolt won't close all the way about 25% of the time, and the hammer dropping will finish closing the bolt. With a suppressor attached in the non suppressed setting it is so over gassed it will lock back on a mag that still has ammo in it. This is with about 200-250 rounds through it. My gas block also locked up when it got hot and was tough to move after that. Sent it off to PWS and it was received by them on 9/9. Called on Friday 9/24 for an update and they are running 6-8 weeks for repairs. It'll be a while, but I'll update the thread when I have more info. Really hoping they can get it sorted out. This seems like a perfect semi-auto for me due to my left handedness and the folding abilities of the rifle. I forgot to mention mine does this also ... I'm telling you'll its the recoil springs are too weak ... way too weak ETA - I'm gonna see if I can get a shop I know to make me some replacement springs ... as I said in an earlier post I bought replacement spring kit from Brownells but it behaved the exact same Unfortunately, my upper is at PWS so not able to try it. ETA: I'm intrigued by the custom spring route. |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 4:30:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So you feel like having a shop basically make some custom springs and all the hassle with that, but don’t want to deal with the hassle of sending it back to the manufacturer and having them look at it? Correct .... edited for revealing too much personal info |
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Posted: 9/30/2021 4:35:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree. For a test (not a long term fix) I wonder if we added a spacer over the recoil spring guide rods to shorten the recoil spring and have them under more tension, if it would more reliably go into battery. Could also slightly stretch it (also just to test) Unfortunately, my upper is at PWS so not able to try it. ETA: I'm intrigued by the custom spring route. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: My gen2 brn-180s upper is currently back at PWS for service with this exact issue. When hand cycling it is the smoothest action I've ever felt, and almost no gas to the face. As a lefty this is huge. However, with a suppressor attached and in the suppressed setting it seems to be under gassed. Bolt won't close all the way about 25% of the time, and the hammer dropping will finish closing the bolt. With a suppressor attached in the non suppressed setting it is so over gassed it will lock back on a mag that still has ammo in it. This is with about 200-250 rounds through it. My gas block also locked up when it got hot and was tough to move after that. Sent it off to PWS and it was received by them on 9/9. Called on Friday 9/24 for an update and they are running 6-8 weeks for repairs. It'll be a while, but I'll update the thread when I have more info. Really hoping they can get it sorted out. This seems like a perfect semi-auto for me due to my left handedness and the folding abilities of the rifle. I forgot to mention mine does this also ... I'm telling you'll its the recoil springs are too weak ... way too weak ETA - I'm gonna see if I can get a shop I know to make me some replacement springs ... as I said in an earlier post I bought replacement spring kit from Brownells but it behaved the exact same Unfortunately, my upper is at PWS so not able to try it. ETA: I'm intrigued by the custom spring route. I didn't think to try to "stretch" the springs some. I am taking it out this weekend and am going to hammer some ammo through it, try to get another 500+ through it and report back. I might take that extra spring set I have and try stretching them. As for the spacer it's hard for me to tell how much room, if any, is between the carrier and the back of the receiver once a round ejects. If you put too big of one in there it won't let the carrier go back far enough before I go out this weekend I will disassemble it and re grease the bitch up (again), I'll also take a brush to the chamber. I will shoot it solely on unsuppressed with no silencer and I'll use multiple types of mags |
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Posted: 10/8/2021 10:04:46 AM EDT
[#29]
well if anyone is still interested here is where I'm at .... it is 100% undoubtedly the recoil springs
I went through the entire song and dance .. different mags loaded to different levels .... different "grades" of ammo (i.e. steel cased, federal, hornady, wolf gold, Israeli ammo, german ammo, I tried about every ammo I had) suppressed, unsuppressed, standing, from a rest, tried it on 2 additional lowers (so in total it has been tried on a spikes, BCM and Andro Corp lowers) all total between first range trip few weeks ago and last weekend I'd guess I am somewhere between 1,000 and 1,500 rounds total now. THE ONLY THING that made any difference was stretching the recoil springs, they were still too weak as it only improved the charging issue by about half and while shooting I'd say the number of times it didn't fully chamber the round were also cut in about half. I "stretched" both springs by maybe 1.5"s each. It immediately made it better but didn't last very long. After a few hundred rounds it start performing in the wrong direction, pulled the springs and I could see where I had stretched them had basically been "recompressed" (for lack of a better word) So I am now determined to move forward with having a couple stronger springs made. I am tempted to take a couple AK springs and cut them down ... but I haven't checked to see if they will fit over the recoil guide rods of the BRN yet |
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Posted: 10/8/2021 11:59:19 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: well if anyone is still interested here is where I'm at .... it is 100% undoubtedly the recoil springs I went through the entire song and dance .. different mags loaded to different levels .... different "grades" of ammo (i.e. steel cased, federal, hornady, wolf gold, Israeli ammo, german ammo, I tried about every ammo I had) suppressed, unsuppressed, standing, from a rest, tried it on 2 additional lowers (so in total it has been tried on a spikes, BCM and Andro Corp lowers) all total between first range trip few weeks ago and last weekend I'd guess I am somewhere between 1,000 and 1,500 rounds total now. THE ONLY THING that made any difference was stretching the recoil springs, they were still too weak as it only improved the charging issue by about half and while shooting I'd say the number of times it didn't fully chamber the round were also cut in about half. I "stretched" both springs by maybe 1.5"s each. It immediately made it better but didn't last very long. After a few hundred rounds it start performing in the wrong direction, pulled the springs and I could see where I had stretched them had basically been "recompressed" (for lack of a better word) So I am now determined to move forward with having a couple stronger springs made. I am tempted to take a couple AK springs and cut them down ... but I haven't checked to see if they will fit over the recoil guide rods of the BRN yet |
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Posted: 10/9/2021 6:51:37 PM EDT
[#31]
huh, interesting. wonder if you got a bad batch of springs?
what’s the length and coil count? I have a lightly used gen1 180s and a new set of spare springs which are both |
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Posted: 10/11/2021 10:10:48 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: huh, interesting. wonder if you got a bad batch of springs? what’s the length and coil count? I have a lightly used gen1 180s and a new set of spare springs which are both 9”/60 coils I will have to measure springs .... I have already tried replacing the springs with new ones from Brownells .... it did help at all. |
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Posted: 10/11/2021 4:23:00 PM EDT
[#33]
i
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will have to measure springs .... I have already tried replacing the springs with new ones from Brownells .... it did help at all. I presume you meant to say it did not help at all...? anyways, I find it odd, that you got a brand-new replacement set of springs, installed them, and yet your issue persists? seems to me it would be anything but the springs, since these same springs, setups, works fine for hundreds of others, if not thousands? not sure how many Brownells has sold, but it's a lot, several production run batches already. I took mine to the range the other day, there were 3 other guys, and one of them had a BRN-180 also. becoming commonplace. ETA: if it's the last 1/2", then that implies that it's not so much the forward travel of the BCG, but perhaps the rotation of the bolt into battery that's the hang-up. do you have headspace gauges? have you checked that? if it's on the tight side, but still within spec, then that'll wear in. but if it doesn't close easily (like butter) on the GO-gauge, then it's out of spec. |
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Posted: 10/12/2021 9:42:52 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i I presume you meant to say it did not help at all...? anyways, I find it odd, that you got a brand-new replacement set of springs, installed them, and yet your issue persists? seems to me it would be anything but the springs, since these same springs, setups, works fine for hundreds of others, if not thousands? not sure how many Brownells has sold, but it's a lot, several production run batches already. I took mine to the range the other day, there were 3 other guys, and one of them had a BRN-180 also. becoming commonplace. ETA: if it's the last 1/2", then that implies that it's not so much the forward travel of the BCG, but perhaps the rotation of the bolt into battery that's the hang-up. do you have headspace gauges? have you checked that? if it's on the tight side, but still within spec, then that'll wear in. but if it doesn't close easily (like butter) on the GO-gauge, then it's out of spec. Quote HistoryQuoted: i Quoted: I will have to measure springs .... I have already tried replacing the springs with new ones from Brownells .... it did help at all. I presume you meant to say it did not help at all...? anyways, I find it odd, that you got a brand-new replacement set of springs, installed them, and yet your issue persists? seems to me it would be anything but the springs, since these same springs, setups, works fine for hundreds of others, if not thousands? not sure how many Brownells has sold, but it's a lot, several production run batches already. I took mine to the range the other day, there were 3 other guys, and one of them had a BRN-180 also. becoming commonplace. ETA: if it's the last 1/2", then that implies that it's not so much the forward travel of the BCG, but perhaps the rotation of the bolt into battery that's the hang-up. do you have headspace gauges? have you checked that? if it's on the tight side, but still within spec, then that'll wear in. but if it doesn't close easily (like butter) on the GO-gauge, then it's out of spec. correct they did not help ... I bought them when I bought the upper just to have extra incase they stop making them some day, I also bought a spare bolt |
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Posted: 10/12/2021 12:47:41 PM EDT
[#35]
could be your chamber is a little bit short.
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Posted: 10/13/2021 8:52:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: could be your chamber is a little bit short. I don't have any head space tools/gauges ... I would think if it was a tight chamber it would also have trouble ejecting, no ? It's never failed to pull spent case out of the chamber, just when going into the chamber |
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Posted: 10/13/2021 2:36:52 PM EDT
[#37]
okay ... AK springs will not fit
Will be waiting for buddy to make me a couple springs .... will report back with results If this doesn't "fix" it I'll just send it back to be corrected |
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Posted: 10/13/2021 5:26:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't have any head space tools/gauges ... I would think if it was a tight chamber it would also have trouble ejecting, no ? It's never failed to pull spent case out of the chamber, just when going into the chamber no, after being fired, the case is now fire-formed to your chamber, whether it is small, medium, large, or right-sized. then the case is released from the chamber walls after pressure drops. in your case, I'm thinking it's might be just a few thousandths short, not grossly undersized, not jammed-in-there undersized. just barely undersized, since the bolt still seems to close, although with a little extra effort. stronger springs might affect reliability of last round bolt hold open. |
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Posted: 10/21/2021 1:14:11 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My gen2 brn-180s upper is currently back at PWS for service with this exact issue. When hand cycling it is the smoothest action I've ever felt, and almost no gas to the face. As a lefty this is huge. However, with a suppressor attached and in the suppressed setting it seems to be under gassed. Bolt won't close all the way about 25% of the time, and the hammer dropping will finish closing the bolt. With a suppressor attached in the non suppressed setting it is so over gassed it will lock back on a mag that still has ammo in it. This is with about 200-250 rounds through it. My gas block also locked up when it got hot and was tough to move after that. Sent it off to PWS and it was received by them on 9/9. Called on Friday 9/24 for an update and they are running 6-8 weeks for repairs. It'll be a while, but I'll update the thread when I have more info. Really hoping they can get it sorted out. This seems like a perfect semi-auto for me due to my left handedness and the folding abilities of the rifle. Pretty much the same issues I'm experiencing with my 16" upper and a suppressor. Gas regulator also very hard to turn. Runs fine without a can on though, so I know it's under gassed only when regulator is in S position. Any update from PWS? Did you have to send your suppressor in with the upper? |
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Posted: 10/21/2021 6:50:25 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty much the same issues I'm experiencing with my 16" upper and a suppressor. Gas regulator also very hard to turn. Runs fine without a can on though, so I know it's under gassed only when regulator is in S position. Any update from PWS? Did you have to send your suppressor in with the upper? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My gen2 brn-180s upper is currently back at PWS for service with this exact issue. When hand cycling it is the smoothest action I've ever felt, and almost no gas to the face. As a lefty this is huge. However, with a suppressor attached and in the suppressed setting it seems to be under gassed. Bolt won't close all the way about 25% of the time, and the hammer dropping will finish closing the bolt. With a suppressor attached in the non suppressed setting it is so over gassed it will lock back on a mag that still has ammo in it. This is with about 200-250 rounds through it. My gas block also locked up when it got hot and was tough to move after that. Sent it off to PWS and it was received by them on 9/9. Called on Friday 9/24 for an update and they are running 6-8 weeks for repairs. It'll be a while, but I'll update the thread when I have more info. Really hoping they can get it sorted out. This seems like a perfect semi-auto for me due to my left handedness and the folding abilities of the rifle. Pretty much the same issues I'm experiencing with my 16" upper and a suppressor. Gas regulator also very hard to turn. Runs fine without a can on though, so I know it's under gassed only when regulator is in S position. Any update from PWS? Did you have to send your suppressor in with the upper? Did not send in my suppressor. I left my ASR mount on, as they directed me to in an email. |
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Posted: 10/21/2021 3:25:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No update from PWS. They received my upper on 9/9, and no word since then except two weeks after when I called in and they hadn't gotten to it yet. I asked for an update via their warranty site on 10/11 and silence. I'm sure they're busy. Did not send in my suppressor. I left my ASR mount on, as they directed me to in an email. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: My gen2 brn-180s upper is currently back at PWS for service with this exact issue. When hand cycling it is the smoothest action I've ever felt, and almost no gas to the face. As a lefty this is huge. However, with a suppressor attached and in the suppressed setting it seems to be under gassed. Bolt won't close all the way about 25% of the time, and the hammer dropping will finish closing the bolt. With a suppressor attached in the non suppressed setting it is so over gassed it will lock back on a mag that still has ammo in it. This is with about 200-250 rounds through it. My gas block also locked up when it got hot and was tough to move after that. Sent it off to PWS and it was received by them on 9/9. Called on Friday 9/24 for an update and they are running 6-8 weeks for repairs. It'll be a while, but I'll update the thread when I have more info. Really hoping they can get it sorted out. This seems like a perfect semi-auto for me due to my left handedness and the folding abilities of the rifle. Pretty much the same issues I'm experiencing with my 16" upper and a suppressor. Gas regulator also very hard to turn. Runs fine without a can on though, so I know it's under gassed only when regulator is in S position. Any update from PWS? Did you have to send your suppressor in with the upper? Did not send in my suppressor. I left my ASR mount on, as they directed me to in an email. Thanks for the update. I hope they get you sorted. PWS did send me a new piston cup and said I could drill it out but not sure how/where to do that. The cup already has a bunch of little holes drilled in it so I think this is more a regulator issue. |
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Posted: 10/25/2021 8:48:35 AM EDT
[#42]
well .... I think it actually working almost 100% now .... still have the issue with not chambering the first round in the mag, but after that it runs fine with no more stoppages.
I took it out yesterday and put 500+ rounds through it. Before I went out I broke it all the way down again and this time I took my chamber brush and rigged it up in my drill and really went to town cleaning the chamber because I did notice some improvement when I cleaned it the chamber the first time. Cleaned and re-lubed everything. So I take it out and it still won't consistently close on the first round. It doesn't matter what mag or how many rounds are in the mag. Doesn't matter if I use the bolt release or charge the handle manually, it will only close about halfway on that first wound. This is one of the original issues I was having BUT once the first round is fired I have no stoppages so that's awesome. Before I could never make it through a mag without it happening a few times. I am debating now to try my "custom" springs ... I do still believe it needs stronger recoil springs BUT I will concede I believe my issues were break in period and really cleaning the chamber well so thanks for the suggestion on that. FWIW ... all of the above was with a AAC SR5 silencer and firing 62grn M855 (I believe it was some GGG) and all mags were either Lancer or Pmags I think it needs another 500 to 1000 rounds through it |
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Posted: 10/26/2021 4:53:25 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No update from PWS. They received my upper on 9/9, and no word since then except two weeks after when I called in and they hadn't gotten to it yet. I asked for an update via their warranty site on 10/11 and silence. I'm sure they're busy. Did not send in my suppressor. I left my ASR mount on, as they directed me to in an email. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: My gen2 brn-180s upper is currently back at PWS for service with this exact issue. When hand cycling it is the smoothest action I've ever felt, and almost no gas to the face. As a lefty this is huge. However, with a suppressor attached and in the suppressed setting it seems to be under gassed. Bolt won't close all the way about 25% of the time, and the hammer dropping will finish closing the bolt. With a suppressor attached in the non suppressed setting it is so over gassed it will lock back on a mag that still has ammo in it. This is with about 200-250 rounds through it. My gas block also locked up when it got hot and was tough to move after that. Sent it off to PWS and it was received by them on 9/9. Called on Friday 9/24 for an update and they are running 6-8 weeks for repairs. It'll be a while, but I'll update the thread when I have more info. Really hoping they can get it sorted out. This seems like a perfect semi-auto for me due to my left handedness and the folding abilities of the rifle. Pretty much the same issues I'm experiencing with my 16" upper and a suppressor. Gas regulator also very hard to turn. Runs fine without a can on though, so I know it's under gassed only when regulator is in S position. Any update from PWS? Did you have to send your suppressor in with the upper? Did not send in my suppressor. I left my ASR mount on, as they directed me to in an email. This was the note added to my ticket: "Changed the spring guide, opened the suppressed port from .062 to .065. Test fired with a SilencerCo Specwar. PWS Warranty PWS Warranty Department" It's scheduled to arrive Friday, so I should be able to get it out to the range this weekend. I haven't tried the super duper chamber cleaning posted above, so I'll shoot it as it arrives from PWS, then do the chamber cleaning if necessary. |
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Posted: 10/27/2021 11:54:15 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just received an update from PWS that they shipped my upper back. This was the note added to my ticket: "Changed the spring guide, opened the suppressed port from .062 to .065. Test fired with a SilencerCo Specwar. PWS Warranty PWS Warranty Department" It's scheduled to arrive Friday, so I should be able to get it out to the range this weekend. I haven't tried the super duper chamber cleaning posted above, so I'll shoot it as it arrives from PWS, then do the chamber cleaning if necessary. @mitsuman47 .... what is the spring guide ? |
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Posted: 10/28/2021 10:09:46 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @mitsuman47 .... what is the spring guide ? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Just received an update from PWS that they shipped my upper back. This was the note added to my ticket: "Changed the spring guide, opened the suppressed port from .062 to .065. Test fired with a SilencerCo Specwar. PWS Warranty PWS Warranty Department" It's scheduled to arrive Friday, so I should be able to get it out to the range this weekend. I haven't tried the super duper chamber cleaning posted above, so I'll shoot it as it arrives from PWS, then do the chamber cleaning if necessary. @mitsuman47 .... what is the spring guide ? If it isn't this I don't know. |
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Posted: 10/28/2021 1:12:09 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Just received an update from PWS that they shipped my upper back. This was the note added to my ticket: "Changed the spring guide, opened the suppressed port from .062 to .065. Test fired with a SilencerCo Specwar. PWS Warranty PWS Warranty Department" It's scheduled to arrive Friday, so I should be able to get it out to the range this weekend. I haven't tried the super duper chamber cleaning posted above, so I'll shoot it as it arrives from PWS, then do the chamber cleaning if necessary. @mitsuman47 .... what is the spring guide ? If it isn't this I don't know. @mitsuman47 .... would you mind letting us know if there is any difference in the spring guide from the original that came in your upper ? |
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Posted: 10/30/2021 7:17:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Got my gen2 180s upper back from PWS today. Problem not solved.
Hustled to the range as soon as I took delivery of the upper. It ran great for 27 rounds, but it was all down hill from there. It started to not fully chamber the round again. I noticed if I release the bolt from the bolt catch, about 10% of the time if the round is on the left side of the mag it will not chamber. But, if the round is on the right side of the mag it fails nearly 50% of the time. I had 4 different types of mags with me (pmag 30, pmag 20, Okay 30 with magpul follower, Lancer 20), and it happened with all of them. Not sure what to do from here. I'm thinking I might try to exchange it, as I've been super excited about this platform since I'm a lefty and there's almost zero gas to the face shooting suppressed. I bought it from brownells, so it should fall under their lifetime warranty. @Brownells_ar15 have you been getting reports of this issue? |
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Posted: 10/31/2021 1:24:36 PM EDT
[#48]
Still trying to diagnose this thing, so I swapped the bolt this morning with one that I purchased as a backup, loaded some dummy rounds and attempted to chamber them from the locked back position and pressing the bolt release. It still failed to chamber and go fully into battery about 50% of the time. I tried several different types of live ammo too (ran them all through a case gauge to make sure they're all to spec), and different brands of mags. Even swapped my straight charging handle back for the factory one, just to remove any variables.
After I went through all that I decided to stretch the springs. Their normal length is 7.75", so I stretched them to 8.75". Problem solved. It chambered perfectly about 15 times in a row. The springs started to retract back toward their normal length, and after 10 rounds they were at 8". But, still chambered the final 5 rounds 100%. I'm convinced that since other folks have had success with these gen2 180s uppers, there's something wrong with my upper that requires just enough extra force to chamber the round, and the factory springs can't quite overcome whatever the resistance is all the time. I don't feel like wasting more ammo trying to further diagnose this thing, so I think I'm done with this particular upper and will exchange it. I still like the potential of this platform, and want to give them one more shot. |
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Posted: 11/1/2021 10:56:04 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Still trying to diagnose this thing, so I swapped the bolt this morning with one that I purchased as a backup, loaded some dummy rounds and attempted to chamber them from the locked back position and pressing the bolt release. It still failed to chamber and go fully into battery about 50% of the time. I tried several different types of live ammo too (ran them all through a case gauge to make sure they're all to spec), and different brands of mags. Even swapped my straight charging handle back for the factory one, just to remove any variables. After I went through all that I decided to stretch the springs. Their normal length is 7.75", so I stretched them to 8.75". Problem solved. It chambered perfectly about 15 times in a row. The springs started to retract back toward their normal length, and after 10 rounds they were at 8". But, still chambered the final 5 rounds 100%. I'm convinced that since other folks have had success with these gen2 180s uppers, there's something wrong with my upper that requires just enough extra force to chamber the round, and the factory springs can't quite overcome whatever the resistance is all the time. I don't feel like wasting more ammo trying to further diagnose this thing, so I think I'm done with this particular upper and will exchange it. I still like the potential of this platform, and want to give them one more shot. @mitsuman47 if you are still interested I am going to try my "custom" springs this weekend and will report back I agree that these uppers still need stronger recoil springs |
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Posted: 11/1/2021 11:01:02 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @mitsuman47 if you are still interested I am going to try my "custom" springs this weekend and will report back I agree that these uppers still need stronger recoil springs Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Still trying to diagnose this thing, so I swapped the bolt this morning with one that I purchased as a backup, loaded some dummy rounds and attempted to chamber them from the locked back position and pressing the bolt release. It still failed to chamber and go fully into battery about 50% of the time. I tried several different types of live ammo too (ran them all through a case gauge to make sure they're all to spec), and different brands of mags. Even swapped my straight charging handle back for the factory one, just to remove any variables. After I went through all that I decided to stretch the springs. Their normal length is 7.75", so I stretched them to 8.75". Problem solved. It chambered perfectly about 15 times in a row. The springs started to retract back toward their normal length, and after 10 rounds they were at 8". But, still chambered the final 5 rounds 100%. I'm convinced that since other folks have had success with these gen2 180s uppers, there's something wrong with my upper that requires just enough extra force to chamber the round, and the factory springs can't quite overcome whatever the resistance is all the time. I don't feel like wasting more ammo trying to further diagnose this thing, so I think I'm done with this particular upper and will exchange it. I still like the potential of this platform, and want to give them one more shot. @mitsuman47 if you are still interested I am going to try my "custom" springs this weekend and will report back I agree that these uppers still need stronger recoil springs Definitely interested. Thanks ahead of time. What material are you having the springs made out of? |
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