AR Sponsor
Posted: 12/21/2006 8:27:47 PM EDT
|
Ran across these in my recent research efforts. Not what I would expect, or not what I had seen before. So what do you think about them? Colt Model 607 / GX-5857   COLT AR-15 PROPERTY OF US GOVT GX-5857 CAL 5.56 MM SERIAL 014607 This came out of Masami Tokoi's Book. This is the only time that I have seen pictures of it or any references made to the "GX-5857" Nomenclature. No question that the Model 607 was in use by the US Military in limited numbers during Vietnam. I wonder if this was the actual model that they used? I had just assumed that they were using a Model 07. Has anyone else ever run across anything on the GX-5857? Colt Model 609 / XM177E1 with Slabside Lower  This one is credited to the "National Infantry Museum". While I have seen plenty of 609s with Partial Fence and Full Fence Lowers, this is the only one that I have seen with a Slabside Lower. At first I thought that this may have been rebuilt at a later date using a SP1 Lower to get around the NFA Issue, however there is a sear pin present, so it is a Full Auto Slabside Lower. Has anyone else ever seen a Model 609 / XM177E1 with a Slabside Lower? I don't want to give this a lot of credibility, but what do you think? Colt Model 629 / XM177E2 with Partial Fence Lower  This is another one from Masami Tokoi's Book. While I have seen the mix of Partial and Full Fence Lowers with the Model 609, with the exception of this photo, all of the 629s that I have seen have had a Full Fence Lower. Does anyone else have any photos of a 629 with a Partial Fence Lower? I am somewhat likely to believe that this could be possible, what do you think? Some food for thought, please jump in with your feedback, "Capt Richardson" |
The bulk of the pictures in Tokoi's books are ones he took at the old MOD Pattern Room. You could say his books are really a catalog of the Pattern Room's inventory.
There are some inherit problems looking at museum pieces. The curators often accept firearms that are not good representative examples and don't know what they are. The KALASHNIKOV ARMS book is probably the best example of this. It is a catalog of the Artillery Museum's inventory. A large part of that inventory is tool room experiments, one off's, and general prototypes. This has lead to some confusion, here is an example: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=88921 In Tokoi's now famous AK book there are pictures of a "Russian" 7.62x39 AKSU. That one had us stumped for quite awhile. Once Stottman got his hands on it he found it was a handmade weapon done up by a Darra gunsmith. So, color me skeptical right off the bat.
Tokoi did not take that picture, I would assume it came from Colt, no doubt a tool room piece of some sort, notice the unusual mag and the flash suppressor. Both those items date later then the carbine itself. I am confident it is a factory mixmaster made up from parts lying around. Such a firearm would not be delivered to Rock Island in that at the time Colt was delivering XM177E2's. The lower receiver markings are interesting. I don't know what the USGI issued 607's had for markings. All the pictures of 607's I have that were captured in Vietnam are right side view only.
Sounds like the marking is a USGI one, makes sense considering the US PROP markings.
It is a 601 or 602 lower. The 602 went out of production in early 1964. The carbine parts appear to date from the 66-67 time frame. That makes it a mixmaster. To get a better clue we need to know the lower markings.
That is a 609 lower, you can tell because it does not have a mag button fence, and it is marked "COMMANDO". The upper, or at least the barrel is a XM177E2 part, being it is 11.5". If you check the 5.56 timeline you will see that there were chrome chambered XM177E2 barrels shipped to Vietnam as replacement parts prior to there ever being a XM177E2 in inventory. Also note that there is a custom XM177E2 pictured in THE BLACK RIFLE. One built on a XM16E1 lower. |
|
Thanks for all of the feedback, Blanco_Diablo, That makes 2 of us, the more I dig, the more I find that does not fit the norm. No question that between Colt's inconsistent manufacturing and field modifications, that things stay pretty interesting and challenging trying to sort it all out. WATom, Thanks for the confirmation. I wonder if there was an "official military contract" for the purchases, or if it was just small unit purchases? The only use that I saw in the field was with the SEAL Teams, and I know a lot of their weapons purchases were small unit purchases. I will have to go back through Dockery's books and see if there is any mention of the GX-5857, I only remember him referring to a Model 07. YardDogOne, I have been debating on having someone translate the book. It is really frustrating looking at all of that information and not being able to understand any of it. I have dealt with some translations on other material, and they pretty much turned out to be a bunch of useless gibberish. I think that most of the pictures in the book were taken of the old "MOD Pattern Room Collection". I think EKIE might know some more about it, he is the one who let me know about the book. It took almost 6 months to track a copy down, and I paid dearly for it, but it is really a great book even if all I can use is the photos. Ranchhand, Your "Real Deal" Colt Partial Fence Lower is a really nice piece, that was one hell of a find! I am sure it must be frustrating not knowing its exact history, but at least you have it, and maybe you will figure it out one day. Dawg and Blanco, I also really want to build a 607 or GX-5857, I actually have everything I need to build one including a "Replica" Partial Fence Lower, I am just short the Handguards and Buttstock. Unfortunately we are all dead in the water until Tom / Total Silence can get back up and running. Maybe one of these days! Thanks again, "Capt Richardson" |
| The way I understood GX- designations was that they were from the Colt Tool room, as "Government Experimentals." These were sort of experimental prototypes (not even pre-production prototypes), that were created for the government. Someone was collecting info on tranferable weapons, partial serials, etc for a while on this board (might be in the archives somewhere), and it was rife with GX references as tool room government experimental prototypes. |
We have two clues, one being we have pictures of Model 607's in service, and we have a copy of a internal Colt document linking the pictured GX-5857's serial number to a specific contract. I hesitate to repost this, in that this document is riddled with errors (for example the info on ranchhand's serial number is incorrect). Page 26 of the May issue of SMALL ARMS REVIEW:
Notice it is listed as being part of the S.A.W.S. contract. Now how something would get from a experimental testing program into the SEALs inventory in Vietnam is a interesting question. More info on SAWS: www.thegunzone.com/556dw-1.html |
|
Here's the thread I was talking about, its tacked in the M16 subsection of the new Class 3 section: www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=23&t=199902 |
|
Ekie, Sorry I did not respond to your comments on the first go around, I did not see them when I started my response, so we must have hit the reply button at about the same time. Thatguy96, Thanks for that link, for some reason I always refer back to EKIE's Serial Number Index, and I forget to refer back to Tony_K's Serial Number Index and Descriptions. I need to combine these 2 documents into 1 single document! Based on the comments: Colt Model 607 / GX-5857 I was not sure how much weight the "US Prop" and "GX-5857" markings carried? I did not think Colt would go to the trouble of marking 1 or 2 units if they were strictly One-Off / R&D / Prototypes. The Colt "Tool Room Models" that I have seen typically have some type of hand stamped markings on the right side of the magwell. I had figured if the designation had been created and they were going to the trouble of marking them, then it might be an indicator that the US Military had actually placed an "official order" for them. I wonder about some of the comments in Tony_K's post.
It does not make any sense to me that Special Ops or CIA Operators would want to carry a weapon that has a "Military Designation" and "US Property Markings" especially if they are operating in areas that they are not supposed to be in. To me this is where the Commercial / Off The Shelf marked weapons would be used. Like everyone else, while I have seen pics of 607's in the field, I have never seen the actual markings on them. I had always just assumed that they were Commercial / Off The Shelf weapons, and would have been marked accordingly. In double checking the Tokoi book, I ran across another GX Model.   This one is the Model 616 / GX-5658. I guess this shows that there was a practice of developing "GX" designations, and giving them "US Prop" markings. That all being the case I am still not sure if that means that these came about as a result of an "Official Military Order / Contract", or if these came about strictly as Colt's effort to provide R&D / Prototype weapons. What do you think? I wonder if the GX designation was a Colt designation, and the XM designation was the US Military designation? On the Model 609 with Slabside Lower I agree and really think that this was "Mixmaster", assembled out of various parts at a later date. On the Model 629 with Partial Fence Lower This one to me brings up a lot of questions. An example is the point made by EKIE, that Chrome Chambered XM177E2 barrels were shipped into Vietnam for upgrades, which makes me ask the question, which weapons were these barrels used to upgrade? This one also makes me question it, because if look closely you will see that the Grenade Ring is installed backwards. We have seen this before, which makes me ask the question, is this due to a bad day at Colt, or is this the result of a later rebuild? The Buffer Tube / Extension Pin is also still a question with me. I am researching that more, because I have been able to find that pin on both Model 609/XM177E1 and 629/XM177E2 Lowers. Still plenty to try and sort out! Thanks for all of the help! "Capt Richardson" |
Is that a bipod mount behind the flashider? |
I really don't think it brings alot of questions. It a 609 lower on a 629 upper. It is marked COMMANDO with means its a 609. Some 609s have pined receiver extensions but most don't. The barrels sent to Vietnam were probably done to upgrade 609/610s or to turn M16s and and M16A1s into shorties. |
The 616 was another variation on the idea of the M16A1 HBAR as the squad auto rifle. My info had it with possibly a different type of handguard and as "Gov HBAR?" which means that came out of Duncan Long, and was immediately suspect. However, it should be the bipod mount, because there's a certain concensus on it being that type of rifle. |
The US PROP means these were part of a contract, and we have confirmation of this in the internal memo. I don't mean that one example is a lone tool room gun, I think it is something Colt did up for a contract, kept for some reason, and updated it years later, and then shot pics. Not at all unusual for Colt to keep things around for many years and then update them.
I am not so sure, current production complete MK18 CQB Carbines are US marked.
I go with the Colt memo saying they were part of a contract. Confirmation being the markings.
XM is US Army lingo, not sure what GX is.
I go with Scott on this, like the XM16E1 conversion in THE BLACK RIFLE, no big mystery. |
|
Sorry for the slow reply, A lot going on here, so I will try to make sense out of everything as best I can, RECEIVER EXTENSION/BUFFER TUBE HOLE & PIN Based on the comments in the discussion about Ranchhand's Lower, Say hello to my leetle friend! I was under the impression that you would not find a hole on a carbine (609/XM177E1 or 629/XM177E2).
However now based on the comments in this thread, plus photographic evidence, it would seem that you could basically find the hole on about any model, so there is no real "rhyme or reason" to the hole being an indicator of any particular model. LEASONS LEARNED: A single Receiver Extension/Buffer Tube Pin Hole can be found on any model from the 601 up to the 629. A double hole & pin will be found on the Model 607 and 608. So everyone agrees on this? COLT Model 607 / GX-5857 Based on everything (discussion & pics), The military would have had both COTS (commercial off the shelf) Model 607 and Military GX-5857 in use in the field. The Military GX-5857 was the result of an Military Contract and production run of units which were US Property Marked. Everyone agrees on this? *Another note on the Model 607 I was initially under the impression that all 607s were built with Slickside Uppers, however this is obviously not the case. I am not sure if any particular model used any particular type of Upper, or if it was just hit or miss with no real pattern. Anybody have any more thoughts on this? Colt Model 609 / Colt Model 629 To me this is still up in the air. In addition to the first photo that I posted from Tokoi's book I have gone back and found further examples of a Model 629 / XM177E2 built with a Partial Fence Lower. Here is another one of those examples:  This could be the result of: - Colt using "leftover" Partial Fence Lowers, and supplying them from the factory in this configuration. - An original Model 609 being rebuilt with a new 629 Barrel - A Model 629/XM177E2 Upper being placed on a 609 Lower Based on the Upper in the original photo which had a "Commando" marked Lower, it would seen in that case that some type of a rebuild or swap out took place. On the example above and some of the others that I have seen the Lower Markings are not visible, so it is not possible to say what happened in those cases. This makes me ask another question, What were the markings on a Colt Model 629 / XM177E2? Were they all marked: AR-15 PROP OF US GOVT XM177E2 SNXXXXXX I am still researching it, but I wonder if any of the early XM177E2 Lowers could have been marked "Commando" instead of XM177E2? What are the markings that you have seen on a Model 629/XM177E2 Lower? Here is another one for you in regards to the Model 629/XM177E2  Notice anything? On the Model 616 / GX5856 Per ThatGuy96, Yes the Model 616 and the Model 606 were both Squad Automatic H-BAR Rifles and they were both equipped with a Bipod. Ranchhand - On the Colt Tool Room Markings Yes that could be it. I have seen single numbers, and a combination of Numbers and Letters. I will try to find an example for you. Other numbers were placed on the right side of the magwell, probably the most common markings would be when a Depot Level Rebuild was done. Those markings would include the Depot Designation and the date of the rebuild. Well I will take a break at this point, and see what everyone thinks about everything up to this point. Thanks for all of the input! "Capt Richardson" |
|
captrichardson, The slick-side upper-receiver transitioned to a forward-assist upper-receiver with the second-generation 607 moderator. I have never seen a non-US Property marked CAR15 SMG marked GX5857. You also might want to note the third-generation 607 was designated as "607A" with the XM177-style moderator. Hope this helps. Sammy |
So only slabside 607s had 3 prong 601 flashiders? Did they also have chrome slabside carriers? Thinkin of building one so I gotta know 
|
No The hole is only found on carbines up until the 609/610 series. It was dropped after that. This is why I can say Ranch's lower is not a commerical shorty as it has (had) a pinned receiver extension. Some early 609/610 used the pinned extension. However we know it is not a 609/610 because it doesn't have the correct markings for it. This narrows it down to four different models 607/608/613/614. |
613/614 had no pinholes.   They have the full fence too. Has anyone been to the Knight Museum? I have pics but they aren't good enough to see pinholes and markings. Too bad someone from Colt won't speak up! Are there any other GX pics out there? |
No, The 613 and 614 date back to the 1960's. |
|
Another 614 w/o rollpin Also in the 209k range, full fence too. |
This is an easy one, don't have time for the other questions right now though... The 613/614 is the same thing as a 603/604, only difference is the customer and the markings. All these models had no mag fense and a pivot pin boss with a pinned in receiver extention from 64-66. From 1967- they have a mag fence and no pinned in extention. The two rifles you posted pics of are both post 1966 production, they just use older serial numbers. I addressed the odd ball 400,000 serial number range in the guide. First I have seen of a out of sequence 200,000 series, but it don't surprise me.
Great example, thanks for the link. Looks like a 1969 614 with a 1965 serial number. I will update the quide to reflect strange usuage of 200,000 serial number range. |
Below is an example of Depot Rebuild Markings:  This particular one was done 3/75 Anniston Army Depot. I believe your right side magwell stamp (plus the history) is a good indicator that it was a tool room or sales sample. Sorry it can't be nailed down better than that, but keep at it! "Capt Richardson" |
I agree and disagree, and IMHO this is still somewhat up in the air. I would agree that the single hole would only be found on a Slabside or Partial Fence Lower, it would not be found on any Full Fence Lower. As such it could be found on any Model built with a Slabside or Partial Fence Lower, it would not be found on any Model built with a Full Fence Lower. That being said, I don't really think the hole helps very much narrowing down the possibilities, other than it does rule out a Model 607 and 608 because it only has a single hole, where they should have 2 holes. IMHO, it will probably take more than what has been presented to nail down the actual model of Ranchhand's Lower. Maybe we have made some progress, but nothing concrete or 100% decisive yet! "Capt Richardson" |
On the Markings, I am really starting to wonder if some of the 629 / XM177E2 were not built on Lowers that were marked "Commando". If you check all of the serial number breakdowns for the 900,000-909,999 range, there is no separation or delineation between "Commando" and "XM177E2" marked Lowers. I would also ask the question, why were 609/XM177E1 Lowers marked Commando, and 629/XM177E2 Lowers marked XM177E2? Why were the 609/XM177E1 Lowers not marked XM177E1? If the 609/XM177E1 Lowers could be "generically" marked Commando, why could the 629/XM177E2 Lowers also not be "generically" marked Commando? I really think that there may have been a mix of Commando and XM177E2 marked Lowers used to build 629/XM177E2 Carbines. On the Partial Fence Lower, Sorry but I have to disagree with you, those are at least 2 different examples, and I believe that it is actually 3 examples of a Model 629/XM177E2 with a Partial Fence Lower. I say that because: 1. Tokoi used the MOD Pattern Room Collection for his photos, I believe that Alley used the Reed Knight Collection for his photos. 2. If you look at the Alley photo with the 2 Partial Fence Lowers, you can tell they are 2 different Carbines because of the position of the Castle Nut on the Stock and the Flashhider. They are clearly in different positions on each one. 3. I also believe that in the Alley photo that the Grenade Rings are installed properly, where the one in the Tokoi photo is installed backwards. While 3 examples is not earth shattering I think that it does merit further investigation, versus simply blowing it off. I don't believe that (3) 629/XM177E2 Uppers would end up on 609/XM177E1 Partial Fence Lower just based on luck. I also wonder if the replacement XM177E2 Barrels (with Chrome) were also shipped with new Tapered Delta/Slip Rings? If these 3 examples were originally a model 609/XM177E1, that latter had a XM177E2 Barrel upgrade, then that upgrade would have also had to include a Delta/Slipring upgrade as well. If not then these 3 examples should still have a Flat Delta/Slip Ring. At this point I don't think anything has been proven, but I do believe that enough has been brought to the table to merit further investigation. That being the case I am going to go back through all of my material and see what else I can dig up. It never ceases to amaze me the inconsistent details that can be easily missed, and how much is taken for granted with there never really being any hard concrete proof to back it up. This may all turn out to be a wild goose chase, but I for one feel like that I will get something out of the adventure! Thanks again for all of the input, "Capt Richardson" |
Again, all of these guns would have came from sitting around at Colt and are not representative of a XM177E2. |
Busy updating the guides, but this is an easy one. Off the top of my head (if I remember right) the CAR-15 COMMANDO was type classified as the XM177E1 after the carbines were delivered and the manuals printed. |
Yes, I will get it scanned and posted on the Retro Black Rifle Page for the 609: www.retroblackrifle.com/ModGde/CrbGde/609.html I will be updating a lot of the site in the next 2 weeks. Thanks, "Capt Richardson" |
Thanks EKIE, now that you mention it I believe that you are correct on this one. "Capt Richardson" |
Scott, I would very much agree with you that the majority (if not all) of the XM177E2's in the field were built on Full Fence Lowers. However, there is evidence that some were built on Partial Fence Lowers. It may turn out that it was only the 3 that I found pics of, or it may turn out to be more. What I am looking for now is a XM177E2 in the field with a Partial Fence Lower. Some food for thought: Serial Number Range - 900,000 thru 902,800? = Colt Model 609 / XM177E1 Confirmed by: - I have pics/examples with SN 900,077 / 900,580 / 901,284 - Kevin Dockery states that the production of the Colt Model 609 / XM177E1 ceased in March of 1967 with 2,800 Carbines being produced. Serial Number Range - 902,801? thru 904,000? = Colt Model 610 / XM177 / GAU-5/A Confirmed by: - TONY_K's list has a example with SN 902,XXX - I have a pic/example with SN 903,842 Serial Number Range - 904,000? thru 90?,??? = Colt Model 629 / XM177E2 Confirmed by: - I have pics/examples with SN 904,549 / 904,981 If this holds true, and I believe that it should (it matches EKIE's and TONY_K's numbers), then the SN of the 629 in Tokoi's book with the Partial Fence Lower falls in the Model 629 SN range, not in the Model 609 SN range! If anyone else has any 609, 610, or 629 serial numbers please post them. The more we can get the more we can nail this down. Thanks, "Capt Richardson" |
Agreed but a picture of a E2 in the field with a partial fence lower could be just a rebuilt E1. |
|
Scott, I would agree with you that there is a possibility of a rebuild. However I am also starting to question how much rebuilding actually went on? According to Dockery, only (30) replacement XM177E2 barrels with Chrome Chambers were initially shipped to Vietnam. I have not found any other references that account for any additional barrels being sent. One of the questions I have is, approx how many XM177E2 replacement barrels were shipped to Vietnam? Also, how many of those barrels would have been used to rebuild a 609/XM177E1, versus used to rebuild a 629/XM177E2 or some other model? Anybody have any ideas? What I am hoping to find is some more Partial Fence Lowers: - that are either "Commando" or "XM177E2" marked - that have a XM177E2 Upper - that are in the low 904,XXX SN range I would believe if they are in the 904,XXX SN range (629/XM177E2), versus the 900,000-902,000 (609/XM177E1), that it might prove that at least the initial XM177E2 Carbines were basically built on "XM177E1 Partial Fence Lowers". I have a pretty strong suspicion that the XM177E2's with a Partial Fence Lower that I have pics of, were the "initial run" produced by Colt. Whether these ever made it to the field, or were strictly a prototype or sales sample that stayed at Colt, I am not sure? The other issue I am trying to sort out is, why were 609/XM177E1 Carbines built on both Partial Fence and Full Fence Lowers? Are the Full Fence Lowers pictured in the field the result of Colt Production or some type of "field swap out/rebuild"? I would think based on the large numbers that I have seen that it would have to be due to Colt Production. Basically Colt was "running out of" Partial Fence Lowers, so they just transitioned to the Full Fence Lowers. What do you guys think? I apologize for "muddying the waters" when it comes to the XM177E1 and XM177E2. I am sure some people would like to stick with: 609/XM177E1 = Partial Fence Lower marked "Commando" 629/XM177E2 = Full Fence Lower marked "XM177E2" however I am not so sure that it was that simple or cut and dry? I am not trying to make a mountain out of an ant hill, but I am just trying to get it all out on the table for everyone to see. Thanks, "Capt Richardson" PS: once again if you have any serial numbers and markings from any of the early carbines, please post them so we can further nail down the Serial Number breakdowns. |
Found it! (EDIT- Found Them!)  If you take a look at the Model 629 / XM177E2 that are in the middle of the front row, they are built on a Partial Fence Lower! Unfortunately I don't know how either one of the Lowers are marked. Without knowing, they could be a rebuild, or they could have been delivered by Colt. The search continues! "Capt Richardson" |
And another E2 with a "field expedient" forward grip too  Really need a black grip then.Also, notice the lack of grenade rings..? |
AR Sponsor