Hello,

I'd like some assistance in coming to an understanding about practical barrel length for a defensive weapon. I am very happy with my 16" RRA, but it has a heavy barrel and the system clocks in at just under 9lbs loaded. I've been thinking about a SD system (PDW) and feel as though 16" is a bit overkill for all practical reasons. I don't forsee the need to touch someone at 200+ yards, so it seems as though 10.5-11.5" may be an optimal barrel length. Here is my thought process;

- HD scenario, 20yds max.
- WROL/Armageddon,  100yds max.
- Lightweight and compact = advantage over heavy and long.
- Thinner barrel = advantage over thicker (not dumping multiple mags).

One negative I recognize would be the obnoxious blast and noise of a shorter barrel. Firing a 10.5-11.5" in a confined HD scenario or even out in the middle of a pasture would probably be EXTREMELY uncomfortable, perhaps even disorienting . I'd like to run a suppressor, but the current 1yr+ wait turns me off. I'm also considering the RDB Bullpup as an option, especially for running suppressed (adjustable gas, 17" bar with 27" OAL, weighted at the shoulder instead of forwards).

I have no experience shooting or handling a shorter/compact system, so I'm hoping to hear from those who have.

I find a 16in gun pretty comfortable to aim vs a shorter system and a little practice shows i can clear corners with appropriate manipulation. If i want my ar shorter i can collapse the stock too.

Id personally would appreciate the extra velocity too, for extra nastiness to the bad guy, but if you like a 11in and find it more convenient go ahead.

Id definitely search clearing houses long gun on youtube before deciding you need something shorter.

Suppressor stamp and SBR stamp will take about the same time.

A 10.5" plus ~6" suppressor ends up about the same OAL as a 16" with an A2 FH if you use a QD suppressor mount.

A direct thread or mini suppressor, ~4", will take the edge off an SBR and be a bit shorter than a 16" with an A2 FH.

Fwiw, I find the OAL of a 14.5" - 16" carbine pretty handy. My go to favorite set up is an 11.5" upper with a Faxon Gunner profile barrel, SLR Ion Lite hand guard and light weight, direct thread 6" suppressor. Minimalist stock as well. Shorter than a 16" with A2, lighter, quiet enough not to blow out your ears shooting indoors without ear pro.

Maybe just swap to a Gunner profile or pencil profile 16" barrel and lightweight stock and hand guard?

my game gun is a 16" RRA mid... my SBR is a 10.3" LMT MK18 upper... I have a 10.5" and 7.5" pistol with buffer tube that can be shouldered...the 10" and 7" barrels produce blast and flash that is manageable with my LeVang linear comp, and home made flash can...

the MK18 is chosen and used by some very competent military shooters with good results... it is my choice with a Surefire Scout light

I personally find your reasoning sound and prefer a shorter gun. My go to for HD/SHTF/Zombie Hordes (and also my favorite AR to shoot in general) is a 10.3" CQBR clone that is currently in pistol form w/ a brace. I'm in the process of making it an SBR, but even as a pistol it is plenty functional. I'll try to offer a fairly unbiased view of short barrels based on my experience with them, and how they compare to a 16" carbine. For context, prior to getting into shorties, my previous "go to" AR was a Colt 6920 and before that a Colt 6520. Given my current choice, I think you can guess how this post will shake out.

First, the negatives. Is a short barrel loud? Absolutely. It takes some getting used to, but at this point it doesn't bother me at all. However, if you have no intention of suppressing it, I'd advise sticking with flash hiders and avoid muzzle brakes or comps that might increase the real or perceived decibel level. Something like a Surefire SF3P is a fine choice: it not only serves as a solid mount, but also does an excellent job of controlling flash on short barrels. I don't have much experience with flash cans or "blast regulators" like the Surefire Warden, but in lieu of a suppressor, that might be another option to try and mitigate the noise level as much as possible (or at least direct it away from you).

That being said, firing any AR unsuppressed in a confined space without hearing protection isn't going to be pleasant. I don't care if it's a 16" or a 10.3", it's going to ring your bell to an extent. I've fired my CQBR off inside a vehicle without hearing protection on a few occasions (unsuppressed, A2 MD), and while it's not exactly fun, I had no trouble staying on target. And you always have the option of adding a suppressor to make it far more tolerable while retaining a package that is reasonably compact and useful. Since it was brought up that using a suppressor brings the length to around that of a 16" carbine, I'd like to add that between the choice of firing an unsuppressed 16" in a confined space vs. a 10.3" suppressed, I'll take the latter option any day.

As to a 16" vs. 10.3"/10.5"/etc. overall, I think that will come down to your intended use and to a degree, personal preference. To me, the loss of velocity is well worth the advantages of compact size. And while it's certainly true that a 16" can be employed effectively in CQB/room clearing, I'm not sure that it's particularly an advantage over a 10.3" in a confined space. There is a reason the 10.3" CQBR is so popular with US SOF. It's not just about clearing rooms, but also the ease of handling in general - especially in tight spaces and inside vehicles. Handling a 10.3" or 10.5" inside a vehicle is far more practical than a 16" carbine. That isn't to say that 16" carbines aren't effective for HD, or that they can't be useful in a CQB situation - I just think a shorty has some clear benefits. Having used both, I prefer a short barrel hands down.

On the issue of suppressors, the current wait times for individual transfers seems to be going down. If you keep an eye on the NFA forum, you'll see some individual Form 4s coming back in about 6 months. So, if you're interested in a suppressor, I wouldn't let the wait scare you off. I just bought a Surefire SOCOM RC for my CQBR and I'm hoping I'll have it in my hands within 6 to 8 months. Yeah, the wait sucks, but it'll be that much more glorious once you have it :D.

11.5" 5.56 has plenty of performance, and has been used to stack people like fire wood since the 1960s.

I think SBRs/pistols are best suppressed, especially in the house, otherwise you have permanent hearing loss.

Inside a car is even worse.

From 11.5" barrel using M193 55gr, you get 2950fps mv. which is fine out to 200yds.

With more modern bullets, you can have pretty visceral performance.

You know, I hear people say that (or do I, after all the hearing loss ;p)... and I think it's kind of irrelevant for the following reason: If you're having to discharge an SBR/pistol inside of your house, it's most likely in a life or death situation (at least it should be). Who cares? I've done more hearing damage to get rascally coyotes. I'm only saying, if you just shot someone in self defense, I think about the last thing you'll be concerned with is a little ringing in your ears and a fairly minor bit of hearing loss. Sure, it's not a good idea to make a habit of it, but a once in a lifetime situation? That isn't even on my list of concerns in an HD situation.

Not trying to be confrontational, just my opinion on the issue.

When it comes to self defense, there is no such thing as overkill. Somebody breaks into my home, I’m reaching for a disentegration ray if I have one...

As for hearing loss, that should be extremely low on your priority list in a self defense situation.

Thanks for all the replies. It seems like a suppressor is the most important variable in my consideration of a shorter barrel.

Very interesting! Where can I find the NFA section of the forum?

Main NFA Forum:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/General-NFA-Questions/17/

Post 41F Wait Time Thread:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/41F-NFA-Timelines-Tracking-thread-starting-7-13-16/17-478115/

There are also more specific NFA forums under Armory as well (MG, SBR, Silencers, etc.):
https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/

ETA: Wait times on trusts are still pretty ridiculous at something around 12 months, but individual times are coming down and seem to be around 6 months currently.

When people who say it have decades of experience shooting in the house, you should listen to them.

Some of the most important things in a dynamic, violent, close-range encounter, are your senses of awareness and communication.

Your senses include vision (sight), audition (hearing), gustation (taste), olfaction (smell), tactition (touch), thermoception (heat, cold), nociception (pain), equilibrioception (balance, gravity), and proprioception (body awareness).

If we define communication as a multi-way transmission of signals that are understood by all the parties sending and receiving, does it make sense to destroy one of the most important senses you have?

Another thing about lighting off SBRs indoors, if you've never done it, is the massive concussion that is resonated within the walls or confines of the space.  Especially in a hallway, it affects not only your ears (permanent hearing loss), but your vision, balance, and body awareness.  It is very disorienting, at least it has been every time I've done it, particularly with .30 caliber weapons or larger, like AKs, and equally so with 5.56 SBRs.

Combine a sense of temporary equilibrium loss, permanent hearing loss, proprioception loss, and temporary vision loss in the dark due to muzzle flash....with rapid epinephrine and norepinephrine surge into your blood stream off your adrenal glands, and now enter and clear a room or hallway.

Assuming you successfully pull this off, your child, spouse, or other friendly inhabitant approaches you to ask what's going on, what happened.

Now imagine the LE response, where it is common training for LEOs to stick their head in an entrance and ask if everyone is ok, how many suspects are there, where are they, where are you, "Police coming in!", or other relevant questions/commands.

The argument for tossing SA and senses to the wind falls apart really quick.  Maintaining your hearing and other senses are as important, if not more important than your shooting skills.  Once the first rapid string is done, your problems have only just begun, assuming you survived.

The OP's thought process is similar to where I was at a few weeks ago.  At just under 8 lbs with light and optic, my 16" barreled AR seemed a bit unwieldy for home defense purposes.  Going shorter barreled had too many negatives for my taste, unless switching to .300 Blackout, which in turn is too expensive to ever want to practice with.

Once I saw the 9mm AR platform and it's ever-growing popularity, I knew that was the direction for me.  Barrel length makes little difference for velocity, and with a flash can the noise levels are supposedly tolerable inside.  The last of my parts arrive later today, so I'm still in the theoretical stage, but it should be a whisker over 19" long and right at 4.5 lbs bare.  You'd think 4 lbs even would be easily accomplished, but the heavier bolt and buffer needed for blowback operation is counter-intuitive in that respect.  The first iteration of the build was ~5 lbs and was crazy well balanced and maneuverable.

Unless an intruder is wearing body armor, it's hard to imagine 32 rounds of 9mm being insufficient.

What on earth did most of that have to do with the subject at hand? Unless you're using touch to read braille while smelling out the intruders like a bloodhound and tasting the air like a rattlesnake, most of that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Once the first rapid string is done, if defensive shooting statistics are in any way dependable, the situation is usually over. All of the issues you described would apply with any unsuppressed firearm in an enclosed space to varying degrees. The great, great majority of self defense shootings occur with an unsuppressed firearm, and somehow these people manage to deal with it. Is it optimal? Probably not. That being said, the majority of the time when you're forced to defend your life it isn't under optimal conditions. You grab the closest gun and do what is required to defend your life or that of your loved ones. You worry about hearing loss later.

I've fired off short barreled 5.56s inside vehicles and inside structures without hearing protection - it's not pleasant at all, and I never said it was. I certainly avoid it if possible. Would I use a suppressor if the option were available? Absolutely. That doesn't make it something I can't live without, nor would a lack of a suppressor change my preference for an HD weapon. I don't find the concussion or noise difference drastic enough between a short barrel and a 16" to change my selection. YMMV.

The great majority of gun owners don't have ready access to a suppressor for various reasons (fear of the paperwork, state laws, budget, etc.). They obviously still require the ability to defend themselves, so what are they to do amongst all these seemingly insurmountable issues you outlined?

The degree of hearing loss from firing even ONE round from a short barreled AR indoors can be anywhere from 10% to over 25% according to some.  I don't find those number "insignificant".

I only addressed the relevant senses, so not sure what the logical sequence was to bring up the irrelevant ones.  You already stated that you just purchased a suppressor, that you recommend them, then questioned what that has to do with the topic.

Once the first rapid string is done with, most single intruder scenarios are over, and many of those are done with handguns.

One of the main reasons people are building or buying AR15 pistols is for an in-vehicle solution, especially for multiple attackers, in addition to HD.

So everything I said is absolutely relevant, and I will continue to strongly recommend that SBRs and AR15 pistols be suppressed if you can.

Also, there is something seriously wrong if you're intentionally shooting within a vehicle or indoors without ear pro, especially with an SBR or AR15 pistol.  In all the courses I've taught that include shooting from within vehicles, we never even considered shooting without ear or eye pro, or mitigating the hazardous inhalation coatings on the inside of the windshield beforehand.

I have significant hearing loss due to years of military experience in small units, conducting regular live fire exercises, as well as multiple deployments to PACOM, SOUTHCOM, CENTCOM, and EURCOM.  I never thought I would be that guy when I was a kid.  I now go through the frustration of having to have people repeat things, stop and replay movie scenes over and over, or just miss out on important parts of conversations.

The constant tinnitus isn't fun to live with, and I've been in the situation before where I had just been shot at close range in a residence, and LE responded before allowing EMS to enter the home.  That was "only" with a 9mm just a few feet to my right in a bedroom, and was deafening.

In that case, by the time LE arrived, I relied more on visual cues and my knowledge of EMS procedures for establishing scene safety that I was able to notify the LEO that the scene was safe, that I was also EMS, send the Paramedics on in when they get there.  (They were waiting on the LEO to clear/declare scene safety.)

Now imagine something worse, in the night, trying to manage an ongoing crime scene as it is still potentially developing with injured runners expiring in the yard, or group violence directed at your car when you aren't able to egress with the vehicle.

Not saying you absolutely have to have a suppressor, but you should if you can.  It should be at the top of your list for HD and Vehicle firearms.

As a matter of fact, I have shot SBRs indoors and out of vehicles.  Yes it's loud, and I have the hearing loss to show for it.  Never noticed any disorientation or equilibrium loss, but maybe it was there anyway.  

You're missing my point, though.   When someone is in your house in the middle of the night, the last thing you should be worried about is your hearing.  Way ahead of that should be... I don't know... keeping yourself and your family safe, removing any threat from your home, etc. and somewhere, way down the line, is "hmm, I wonder if this is going to permanently damage my hearing".  Besides, in the context of the thread, at that point, is the difference in hearing loss between firing a 16" rifle and a 10" all that important?  Probably not so much (yes, the SBR is a lot louder, of course).

That said, I have a 10" SBR with a can on it handy for bad things.  It's plenty loud even with the can, but I'm not going to worry about that if it ever comes down to bad things in my house.  I'd trade more hearing loss for being alive any time.  Hell, if I could get my family out of the house without a shot fired I'd do that before I'd engage anyway.  My shit is important, but my family is a lot more so.

When someone is in your house in the middle of the night, the first thing you should be worried about is your hearing, as it will cue you in to where they are.

Most home invasions happen in the day, in the months of July and August when people are on vacation.

It is extremely rare to have a home invasion at night when you're home, but still a possibility.

I'm not missing any points on this guys.

You can do it with a 16" but the shorter option is more maneuverable, you can hang a set of electronic ear pro like some cheap walker or something on your mag so you'll throw them on when you need them.

I totally agree with you.

Anyone saying hearing isn't very important before, during, or after an indoor shooting situation (especially at night) might as well say that seeing isn't very important in those situations either.  Hearing is second only to sight for situational awareness and threat identification, and all steps to preserve it should be taken in ALL situations.

Everything LRRPF52 is relevant.  Until you've fired a gun indoors you do not understand how disorienting even firing one shot can be.

I've never understood how people think having an SBR with a linear comp will help protect your hearing indoors.  I had a pdw upper with kx3 before and that would still rattle your jaw with double ear pro.   Suppressed subsonic 300blk would be optimal.

A lighter barreled (Faxon Gunner for example) 14.5” pinned or 16” carbine would be my pick if I wasn’t suppressing it. 14.5” or 16” carbines still handle pretty well indoors are are manageable in a vehicle. I’d personally only go for an 11.5” if trying to keep the OAL down when using a suppressor.


ETA: As far as suppressor go if you’d have filed a year ago you’d have it now, the wait isn’t that big a deal and you’d have to wait for a stamp if you SBR it. Suppressors are handy for hunting as well and though somewhat expensive at $700+ after stamps and all if you ask the guys on here with permanent hearing damage if they’d give you $1,000 to restore their hearing I guarantee you they’d do it.

I keep a set of electronic muffs by my bed beside an ar with a red dot and light. The muffs will go on if time allows. The superhuman hearing when they are on could be a huge asset.

I use an 11.5

good all-around for defense.

If they are 200 yds away, your best defense is probably evasion.

indoors/vehicles, i would chose a pistol or sbr with can and subsonics (ie: 300blk or 9mm). anything sonic is too disorienting to the user.

because of trajectory/ranging issues, i consider these types of firearms only good out to 150 yds or a little more.

if one can live with sonic, ringing plates to 400 yds with shorty barrels in 223 is very do-able.

I only addressed the relevant senses, so not sure what the logical sequence was to bring up the irrelevant ones.
Which is why I wondered what prompted you to mention a bunch of other senses. Admit it, you just wanted an excuse to say "equilibrioception" and "proprioception". ;p

One of the main reasons people are building or buying AR15 pistols is for an in-vehicle solution, especially for multiple attackers, in addition to HD.
Totally different subject, but I think an AR SBR/Pistol is only a secondary option in a vehicle. It's not going to do you a lot of good when a carjacker brandishes a handgun next to your window at a red light. A 9mm pistol is my primary vehicle weapon, simply for speed and ready access. But, that's neither here nor there.

Once the first rapid string is done with, most single intruder scenarios are over, and many of those are done with handguns.
Even with multiple intruders, any sort of protracted fire fight is extremely rare in a civilian HD situation.

You already stated that you just purchased a suppressor, that you recommend them, then questioned what that has to do with the topic.
Hearing loss being a deciding factor in whether or not to use an SBR/Pistol was the only thing I addressed. I never questioned what suppressors had to do with anything - you're adding in things I never said. I initially stated that hearing loss in a self defense situation isn't something I'm concerned with because, A) it is a once in a lifetime situation, and, B) your life is at stake, and thus who cares if you do some hearing damage. I previously said I would use a suppressor if the option were available - I don't see those two positions as being contradictory. Perhaps you misunderstood or I wasn't clear, but the only point I was making is that the decision of whether or not to use an SBR/Pistol for HD shouldn't, in my opinion, have potential hearing loss or lack of a suppressor as the major deciding factor.

So everything I said is absolutely relevant, and I will continue to strongly recommend that SBRs and AR15 pistols be suppressed if you can.
Everything you said regarding sight and hearing was relevant - not so sure about randomly throwing in "gustation", though. That being said, I am sure 4 out of 5 self defenders give intruders no stars on taste. As I said in my first post in the thread, if I had a choice between an unsuppressed 16" and a suppressed 10.3", I'd always choose the latter. So, I obviously agree a suppressor is a good choice if available. I have no issue recommending suppressors, nor was I ever arguing they don't offer advantages. The only point I made was that in a life or death situation, hearing loss isn't on my list of concerns. Further to that point, fear of potential hearing loss wouldn't influence my choice of HD weapon. That's it. People can decide for themselves whether a short barrel (suppressed or not) suits their HD needs. For me, it does - even without a suppressor. Which, of course, I would use if available.

Also, there is something seriously wrong if you're intentionally shooting within a vehicle or indoors without ear pro, especially with an SBR or AR15 pistol.
Apparently you've done it as well, or you wouldn't be stating it was disorienting every time. I certainly don't go out thinking, "Hey, I bet shooting off a few rounds without hearing protection inside this vehicle would be fun!" Nonetheless, it's happened. I didn't find it disorienting, or even particularly painful at the moment. In fact, when your adrenaline is up and you're focused on a target, I'd say you don't even really notice it. Mostly it's painful afterwards. Certainly not something I advise people to do all willy-nilly - see below.

I have significant hearing loss due to... The constant tinnitus isn't fun...
Yep, so do I. Mostly I don't really notice the tinnitus too badly unless I'm in a quiet room, or if I have a cold and my nose being stuffed up seems to make it reverberate more. I find it blends in quite nicely with the whir of my case fans in my computer, lol.

Now imagine something worse, in the night, trying to manage an ongoing crime scene as it is still potentially developing with injured runners expiring in the yard, or group violence directed at your car when you aren't able to egress with the vehicle.
Holy hell, injured runners bleeding out in my yard? I just hope there isn't any gustation involved.

Not saying you absolutely have to have a suppressor, but you should if you can.
After all of that, we're in agreement.