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Posted: 2/25/2018 10:24:35 AM EDT
[#1]
I think the barrel length has a lot to do with it. I am sure that a lot of people will want 16-18 inch barrels and I don't think 1/7 will cut it with the 90s at that length .
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Posted: 2/25/2018 11:12:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Trust me you want the faster twist. Extra barrel length helps a tiny bit but not enough to get it done on those long bullets.
Greg |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 11:15:33 AM EDT
[#3]
What if you want to shoot light bullets smoking?
I know as a kid with Lyman hammer dies, I loaded everything for speed. My 22 hornet had to flatten primers 
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Posted: 2/25/2018 11:23:54 AM EDT
[#4]
Will be interesting to see if any changes are made with twist rates over time as right now some of the big companies that were part of T&E with Federal have 1:7 twist....Larue, JP, Savage...for their 18-22" barrels in 224V.
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Posted: 2/25/2018 11:43:56 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What if you want to shoot light bullets smoking? I know as a kid with Lyman hammer dies, I loaded everything for speed. My 22 hornet had to flatten primers M193 +P 
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Posted: 2/25/2018 11:46:19 AM EDT
[#6]
Thin skinned light varmint bullets like tye 50 VMAX,will blow up at around 3700 or so in an eight twist. The Noslers will stay together. Faster twist will be worse plus you have the long throat jump designed for the big boys.
Odd, all that research and the first thing they did was drop that 100 grain pill. I think someone dropped the ball on the seven twist. Greg |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 12:13:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is what I want. I want to shoot a 55 grain bullet loaded at magazine length at 3500-3600 fps from a 20 inch barrel. Any ideas if this is possible with 224 V M193 +P Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
What if you want to shoot light bullets smoking? I know as a kid with Lyman hammer dies, I loaded everything for speed. My 22 hornet had to flatten primers M193 +P |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 12:17:23 PM EDT
[#8]
OST
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Posted: 2/25/2018 12:40:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thin skinned light varmint bullets like tye 50 VMAX,will blow up at around 3700 or so in an eight twist. The Noslers will stay together. Faster twist will be worse plus you have the long throat jump designed for the big boys. Odd, all that research and the first thing they did was drop that 100 grain pill. I think someone dropped the ball on the seven twist. Greg I am in a unique position ... I can make myself whatever my heart desires. |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 1:08:16 PM EDT
[#10]
I am wanting to run a bonded bullet or FMJ at high speed not a thin skinned varmint bullet. 1/9 probably would be good for this.
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Posted: 2/25/2018 1:27:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am wanting to run a bonded bullet or FMJ at high speed not a thin skinned varmint bullet. 1/9 probably would be good for this. |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 1:47:41 PM EDT
[#12]
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OST Myself? I will build a polygonal 1:7 Valkyrie and I know that from past experience they will stabilize a bit more bullet than the standard Enfeild types. Two reasons is that I have access to a barrel company and that I want to know so no one can say I'm talking out my butt. That is why I have a very accurate Nosler setting on an upper right now. I had to know. The 22X6.8 is far superior to either the N or V but for the average guy that wants OTC ammunition it just won't happen for them. I can shoot 90's in it with careful selection but my focus has been on the 77's and under and at mag length it hammers those all the way down to the 40's with a 1:8 twist thanks to the polygon rifling. Greg |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 1:56:29 PM EDT
[#13]
^^^
So you didn't/couldn't achieve the same results in say a 5R 1-in-8"? |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 2:18:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ So you didn't/couldn't achieve the same results in say a 5R 1-in-8"? I don't shoot standard rifling in these hot rods. I use three or five groove polygonal barrels in these little guys so I can't speak directly to the standard ones. I do shoot both rifling typees side by side in other chamberings and the poly is a step up all the way across the board along with good chamber design. Greg |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 2:29:13 PM EDT
[#15]
^^^
Your polygonal comment ... You all but said "Science Bitches !!" Quoted:
Snip I can shoot 90's in it with careful selection but my focus has been on the 87's and under and at mag length it hammers those all the way down to the 40's with a 1:8 twist thanks to the polygon rifling. Greg |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 2:29:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, in your opinion, how small and how fast can the 1-in-7" run ... and would I like a 1-in-8" better ? I am in a unique position ... I can make myself whatever my heart desires. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Thin skinned light varmint bullets like tye 50 VMAX,will blow up at around 3700 or so in an eight twist. The Noslers will stay together. Faster twist will be worse plus you have the long throat jump designed for the big boys. Odd, all that research and the first thing they did was drop that 100 grain pill. I think someone dropped the ball on the seven twist. Greg I am in a unique position ... I can make myself whatever my heart desires. |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 2:33:02 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ Your polygonal comment ... You all but said "Science !!" Greg |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 2:33:37 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If all I ever wanted to shoot was lightweight gopher grenades like the Hornady SX, I'd spin up a 14 twist. Greg |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 2:46:56 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If all I ever wanted to shoot was lightweight gopher grenades like the Hornady SX, I'd spin up a 14 twist. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Thin skinned light varmint bullets like tye 50 VMAX,will blow up at around 3700 or so in an eight twist. The Noslers will stay together. Faster twist will be worse plus you have the long throat jump designed for the big boys. Odd, all that research and the first thing they did was drop that 100 grain pill. I think someone dropped the ball on the seven twist. Greg I am in a unique position ... I can make myself whatever my heart desires. |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 3:01:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What do you need for 55’s a 1-12”? That’s probably what I would do unless I knew that I would exclusively shoot a lighter bullet But that's half-assing it to me. Why do I want to shoot 55s? I can't push them as fast as a 40, and they have a shit BC compared to a 90.
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Posted: 2/25/2018 3:31:38 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quite simply the poly will shoot 90's. Fact is fact. Experience is experience. So there's a problem there? You have to drive them hard but they are doable. Greg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
^^^ Your polygonal comment ... You all but said "Science !!" Greg |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 5:43:23 PM EDT
[#22]
You guys get this straightened out so the rest of us know what to do
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Posted: 2/25/2018 9:32:07 PM EDT
[#23]
I've been very interested in the V guns and have been following the development pretty close. It appears that most are being produced with a 1/7 twist but not because it's best, because it's still a fairly new caliber and they don't want to spend the extra money on the equipment needed to go to a 1/6.5 which everyone seems pretty much in agreement as being optimal. Pretty much, if a barrel maker has a 1/7 button rifler they'll be making V barrels if they don't they won't offer them yet.
As for shooting 55g bullets... Why? Just buy a .223 Wylde if you want to do that. Remember, the .224 V was developed to be a Creedmore with half the recoil. Ironically, the Creedmore was developed to be a .308 with half the recoil. The Grendel falls somewhere in between and does it in a small frame. Sorry got side tracked. Anyway, I would hold off on a .224 V until the 1/6.5 twists are available and I'd go with a 22 or 24 inch barrel. |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 10:04:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As for shooting 55g bullets... Why? Just buy a .223 Wylde if you want to do that. Anyway, I would hold off on a .224 V until the 1/6.5 twists are available and I'd go with a 22 or 24 inch barrel. One last thing as far as the OP's main statement is concerned, am I not the only one thinking..... What's wrong with a rifle caliber having multiple twist offerings? If you want a Valkyrie geared toward faster light to mid range 1/7 or 1/7.7 if you want the heavy 90 plus grains go with the 1/6.5. Every other caliber does it, I see no reason why the Valkyrie shouldn't also. |
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Posted: 2/25/2018 10:30:27 PM EDT
[#25]
Berger recommend the 6.5 and 6 twist for their 90 VLD.
The main attraction to .224 Valkyrie seems to be long range performance, as well as heavy-for caliber hunting on medium game if allowed. Would have to gauge interest from the varmint crowd, since .224 bore is very popular for yotes and below. |
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Posted: 2/26/2018 4:06:22 PM EDT
[#26]
Bumped
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Posted: 2/26/2018 4:20:17 PM EDT
[#27]
I would like to shoot the 90s mostly, so 1/6 in a 20"?
Without getting all sciency, I would possibly shoot the lighter stuff, but would want the 90s to shoot well. I am sure more bullets will be developed for this as it goes forward. |
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Posted: 2/26/2018 4:38:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Who is loading factory 90 Bergers ?
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Posted: 2/26/2018 4:40:02 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would like to shoot the 90s mostly, so 1/6 in a 20"? Without getting all sciency, I would possibly shoot the lighter stuff, but would want the 90s to shoot well. I am sure more bullets will be developed for this as it goes forward. I'd like to be able to reliably shoot the Federal 90gr MKs. I'm not too worried about the 100gr fusion hunting round. |
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Posted: 2/26/2018 4:45:17 PM EDT
[#30]
^^^
I am told the Federal 90s are shooting great out of the 20" LaRue 224V rifles (1-in-7") I shipped to them last Labor Day. |
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Posted: 2/26/2018 4:48:19 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ I am told the Federal 90s are shooting great out of the 20" LaRue 224V rifles (1-in-7") I shipped to them last Labor Day. I'm still reading thread after thread on other forums trying to find some real data relating to twist. ETA - I haven't stumbled across anyone loading Bergers (yet). |
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Posted: 2/26/2018 5:49:50 PM EDT
[#32]
I haven't completely figured out posting pictures, so hopefully this works and then anyone can see the actual numbers from my 20 inch 1/7 twist barrel. Bullet stability being the key question, so I'll include chronograph results, temp was 45 deg F, and elevation was at 1750 feet above sea level.
These are factory loaded Federal 90 grain SMK's, bullet length averages around 1.165 inches long 
So you have all the information to punch in for factory loads, just adjust the elevation and temperature to your local conditions. My SG is 1.73 in 45 degree weather, the 1/7 twist barrels stabilize 90 grain Sierra Match Kings very well. 
The 90 grain Berger VLD's I received from Midway measure out to an average of around 1.225, They are in the Berger drop down menu on the stability calculator page as being 1.25 inches long. Either way, quite a bit longer then 90 grain SMK's, only marginally stable from my barrel at an SG of 1.44 in the same weather and elevation conditions, and this and the 95 grain SMK's(I haven't seen any measurements from these bullets yet) might be where the 1/7 twist barrels run into trouble. Temperature plays a big part in it, colder conditions being worse. Berger Twist rate Calculator If you're happy shooting factory Federal 90 grain SMK's, the 1/7 will be just fine, If you live in warmer climate, the others may work as well or play it safe and go with a 1/6.5 |
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Posted: 2/26/2018 7:19:57 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Who is loading factory 90 Bergers ? |
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Posted: 2/26/2018 7:20:32 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^^^ I am told the Federal 90s are shooting great out of the 20" LaRue 224V rifles (1-in-7") I shipped to them last Labor Day.
I need to pick up a 2.0 to keep it warm |
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Posted: 2/26/2018 8:56:40 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I will be Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Who is loading factory 90 Bergers ? |
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Posted: 2/28/2018 2:10:18 PM EDT
[#36]
I plan to shoot 90/100 Gr. hunting bullets for deer and hogs, the 90/95 Gr. SMK for 1k paper/steel and 75/77 class bullets for varmints. I believe the 6.5 twist will be ideal for this purpose and that is what I am holding out for.
I initially thought about using it to hot rod 50/55 class bullets, but don't think the capacity is there to do significantly more than the 5.56. |
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Posted: 2/28/2018 2:57:15 PM EDT
[#37]
No proof, but I suspect twist rate is being blamed for poorly made barrels.
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Posted: 2/28/2018 3:54:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No proof, but I suspect twist rate is being blamed for poorly made barrels. 
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Posted: 2/28/2018 4:11:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No proof, but I suspect twist rate is being blamed for poorly made barrels. |
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Posted: 2/28/2018 5:14:34 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No proof, but I suspect twist rate is being blamed for poorly made barrels. |
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Posted: 2/28/2018 8:45:05 PM EDT
[#41]
I was ordering barrels today from Green mountain and was told they are planning to offer a Valkyrie barrel soon. I tried to get more info but my sales person didn't know anymore. They did make a run of 6.5 twist AR15 barrels in .556 . With more people calling the y might do the faster twist ?
They will make a special order barrel in 6.5 twist but you have to buy a hundred blanks. |
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Posted: 3/1/2018 8:21:26 AM EDT
[#42]
I was coming here to discuss this. I was going to buy a Criterion barrel from MSR, then I say that MSR says
These 1-7 twist barrels are optimized for the lighter grain 224 Valkyrie projectiles. Not recommended for use with 90 grain projectiles. https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/9290/224-dia-90-gr-HPBT This is due in part to what Sierra bullets says about the twist requirements for their 90 grain bullets. If you take a look at the link above you will see a recommendation (highlighted in red) stating that the 90 grain loads require a twist of 1:6.5 or even faster for proper stabilization. This can be cross checked with a variety of different bullet stability calculators and I think you will find that this is common across the board with the heavier bullets. We are currently testing several different twist and rifling options to find a perfect match for the heavier 90 grain bullets. Additionally it is very likely that ammunition manufacturers will continue to push the envelope with new and heavier bullet designs in the future. When you have a cartridge that is loaded with a wide range of loads from lighter bullets like the 60 grain loads all the way up to 90 + grain loads there is rarely a single twist option that will perform equally well with all of the options out there. So to answer your question, MSR Arms is letting customers know that if they intend to exclusively use the heavier bullets, that the 1:7 may not be ideal for their uses. I hope that this helps to answer some of your questions. If you have any more questions feel free to contact me directly. If you want to know more about MSR's reasoning I would encourage you to contact them as I cannot truly speak for their company and the exact reasoning behind statements on their website. I really do appreciate your questions! Sincerely, Michael Ross CBI Technical Support W172 N13050 Division Rd. Germantown, WI 53022 Phone: (262) 628-8749 Office Fax: (262) 677-2554 |
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Posted: 3/1/2018 9:14:51 AM EDT
[#43]
This is why you never jump in early on a new cartridge
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Posted: 3/1/2018 9:22:08 AM EDT
[#44]
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This is why you never jump in early on a new cartridge I always let others be guinea pigs on new weapons or cartridges. I started a build for a 6.5G in the fall, but put it on hold to see how the 224v went. All I need is a barrel. I will probably still go with 224v, but letting others figure out bbl length, twist and such. |
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Posted: 3/1/2018 9:34:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is why you never jump in early on a new cartridge 
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Posted: 3/1/2018 9:48:36 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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This is why you never jump in early on a new cartridge I bought a first year motorcycle and it had teething issues too. If you aren’t trying to keep up with the Joneses no reason not to let it calm down and get worked out first. |
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Posted: 3/1/2018 12:40:18 PM EDT
[#47]
I can just about guarantee we will see 6.5 and even 6.0 twist barrels later this year. I am holding out for one, as the real benefit of the 224 V is being able to shoot the long/heavies in an AR15 platform.
I would think the 6.5 or 6.0 will still shoot 75/77 grainers just fine. |
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Posted: 3/1/2018 1:23:21 PM EDT
[#48]
I think a fast twist would be great for the heavier bullets but I personally would also like a 1/9 twist so I can shoot the 55 grain bullets as fast as possible and occasionally shoot 77 grains or so. I would of course get both .
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Posted: 3/1/2018 4:21:48 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don’t know I bet the early adopters of 6.8 feel that way. There have been several new gun and calibers that required working out. I bought a first year motorcycle and it had teething issues too. If you aren’t trying to keep up with the Joneses no reason not to let it calm down and get worked out first. |
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Posted: 3/1/2018 6:55:04 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think a fast twist would be great for the heavier bullets but I personally would also like a 1/9 twist so I can shoot the 55 grain bullets as fast as possible and occasionally shoot 77 grains or so. I would of course get both . |
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