Just wondering who is using this and what their results have been.  

I got a message from one person and wanted to know if his experience was the status quo or something else.

I guess any claims that you have tested would be cool--

Does it function blanks without a BFA?
Does it lower recoil?
Have you fired subsonic through the upper with a suppressor to see if it does function?
Is it reliable?
Is it relatively clean?

Thanks for imput-- I am wondering wether or not to invest the $600 in the system.

I just sent mine back because it was recoiling to sharp.When it first got there I was told they test the rifle out on a machine that shows the recoil force..my question is does anyone shoulder the rifle.Mine was kicking so hard and I use a 9mm buffer.Paul told me hes sending me a buffer thats in use now and forget what he called it but a 9mm buffer is heavy I would think the heavier would be better.At least in my direct gas guns you can feel the difference.I also had a problem with firing pin retaining pins bending..after it was sugested it was my Bushmaster part quality I was sent another pin..again it was bending.It was then suggested it was my firing pin as L&W uses the "proper mil-spec pin as it was said to me..fine it came I was gratefull but then I saw it was an M16 larger collar pin as generally all us semi users have the smaller collar pin.When I inquired I was told that was the pin used in the design....my question is if it was the proper pin why wasnt it used when I got the conversion.Thanks god I check my weapon as a retaining pin breaking at the wrong moment could mean a bad jam and weapon malfunctioning at the wrong time.Im questioning the choice I made to give this thing a go.Hopw fully when I get it back it wont be kicking hard enough to move my elevation wheel.They told me so far they changed the bearing and spring..I hope they dont give this the blame as for 10 years it never did this with direct gas.

The only subsonic that cycles the rifle is ammo that cycles DI uppers. (I inquired about this previously)
It has already been stated by LW (48th actually) a BFA is still needed.

Really.  That is very surprising.

People were posting as if the thing was a miracle -- functioning blanks without a BFA. Queiter than DI... etc etc.

Quoted: Just wondering who is using this and what their results have been.   I got a message from one person and wanted to know if his experience was the status quo or something else. I guess any claims that you have tested would be cool-- Does it function blanks without a BFA? Negative....BFA still required. Does it lower recoil? Is about the same or lower. Recoil feels different than a G.I. system. Muzzle rise is pretty much nonexistant. Have you fired subsonic through the upper with a suppressor to see if it does function? Yes I have shot sub-sonic through a suppressed LW upper, I would no cycle the type of ammo we had. During the cycling of the action you could plainly see that it could be possible with the right ammo or a lighter return spring. The return spring used on the LW system is pretty stout. Is it reliable? Very relieable over 6K most on F/A on my gun Is it relatively clean? The inside of the receiver is very clean. Under the handguards it really depends on what type of ammo you are shooting. When I shoot Blackhills or Lake City I get alittle carbon on the barrel and the inside of the rail around the piston cup area . When shooting Wolf the barrel and the inside of the rail gets pretty dirty . Prior to shooting WolF I spray some CLP  on the barrel and rail. Once I'm done shooting I spray it down with brake cleaner, she is then clean as can be. Here's a look at my personal rig: Leitner-Wise Gas piston upper (10.3" Gov. profile barrel) Leitner-Wise Advance Combat Bolt Grenadier Precision ARM-R/M freefloat rail Grenadier Precision Lower (NFA Post Dealer) Noveske Krink flash hider KAC rail panels EOtech Troy BUIS LMT SOPMOD stock TD pistol grip Thanks for imput-- I am wondering wether or not to invest the $600 in the system.

BTW- The LW system is quiter than a Colt when suppressed

AAC M4-2000

POF was 3.2 dB louder than the Colt
LW was 1.5 dB quieter than the Colt.

Gemtech M4-02

POF was 1.8 dB louder than the Colt.
LW was 2.1 dB quieter than the Colt.

http://www.silencertests.com/silencer-forum/viewtopic.php?t=949&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=piston&start=15

Quoted: Really.  That is very surprising. People were posting as if the thing was a miracle -- functioning blanks without a BFA. Queiter than DI... etc etc.

A miracle......No, but a diffinate improvement.

Quoted: Quoted: Just wondering who is using this and what their results have been.   I got a message from one person and wanted to know if his experience was the status quo or something else. I guess any claims that you have tested would be cool-- Does it function blanks without a BFA? Negative....BFA still required. Does it lower recoil? Is about the same or lower. Recoil feels different than a G.I. system. Muzzle rise is pretty much nonexistant. Have you fired subsonic through the upper with a suppressor to see if it does function? Yes I have shot sub-sonic through a suppressed LW upper, I would no cycle the type of ammo we had. During the cycling of the action you could plainly see that it could be possible with the right ammo or a lighter return spring. The return spring used on the LW system is pretty stout. Is it reliable? Very relieable over 6K most on F/A on my gun Is it relatively clean? The inside of the receiver is very clean. Under the handguards it really depends on what type of ammo you are shooting. When I shoot Blackhills or Lake City I get alittle carbon on the barrel and the inside of the rail around the piston cup area . When shooting Wolf the barrel and the inside of the rail gets pretty dirty . Prior to shooting WolF I spray some CLP  on the barrel and rail. Once I'm done shooting I spray it down with brake cleaner, she is then clean as can be. Here's a look at my personal rig: Leitner-Wise Gas piston upper (10.3" Gov. profile barrel) Leitner-Wise Advance Combat Bolt Grenadier Precision ARM-R/M freefloat rail Grenadier Precision Lower (NFA Post Dealer) Noveske Krink flash hider KAC rail panels EOtech Troy BUIS LMT SOPMOD stock TD pistol grip www.solisearch.net/ims/pic.php?u=32951QPDp9&i=248246 Thanks for imput-- I am wondering wether or not to invest the $600 in the system. BTW- The LW system is quiter than a Colt when suppressed AAC M4-2000 POF was 3.2 dB louder than the Colt LW was 1.5 dB quieter than the Colt. Gemtech M4-02 POF was 1.8 dB louder than the Colt. LW was 2.1 dB quieter than the Colt. http://www.silencertests.com/silencer-forum/viewtopic.php?t=949&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=piston&start=15

Jesse,

You better get that krink off before Paul notices !

j/k.

Happy holidays.

Justin

ETA:  Green0, there are quite a few people that have already received their LW uppers.  AShooter and KnobCreek come to mind.

Right and the people who don't work at LW were the ones I was interested in getting feedback from.

I know you guys are happy with your product.  What matters to me is what the other people (if there are any) think of your product.

So far from an unbiased source I have information that confirms the 1.5DB quieter report with a suppressor.  

That alone though isn't a lot to go on.  1.5x's the smallest difference in noise that a person with perfect hearing can hear is not a big enough deal in and of itself to be spending $600 on.  The suppressor is $600 (M4-2000 and produces a little over 20 times that reduction in sound.)

Of course that's better than a 3DB louder sig with a POF piston though.

Quoted: Right and the people who don't work at LW were the ones I was interested in getting feedback from. I know you guys are happy with your product.  What matters to me is what the other people (if there are any) think of your product. So far from an unbiased source I have information that confirms the 1.5DB quieter report with a suppressor.   That alone though isn't a lot to go on.  1.5x's the smallest difference in noise that a person with perfect hearing can hear is not a big enough deal in and of itself to be spending $600 on.  The suppressor is $600 (M4-2000 and produces a little over 20 times that reduction in sound.) Of course that's better than a 3DB louder sig with a POF piston though.

Neither AShooter nor KnobCreek (nor myself, for that matter) are employed by LWRC or GP.  I apologize for the misunderstanding.

For future references, the only members here employed by Leitner-Wise Rifle Co. are Leitner-Wise, Marianne, and LWRC_Matt (I think that's all of them, if I recall correctly).  Grenadier Precision is owned and operated by 48thHighlander (Darren) and misterjg (Jesse).

Hope this helps and have a happy holidays.

Justin

"them, if I recall correctly). Grenadier Precision is owned and operated by 48thHighlander (Darren) and misterjg (Jesse)."

OK I had an MRP that was slated to be converted to gas piston and 48th Highlander was the guy that told me it couldn't be done and was also the guy who in my understanding would be doing the conversion.  That made me think that he was an LW employee.  All those names misterjg, simontan, 48thhighlander, the aformentioned LW names and yourself seemed to talk like you were all on the same team or working on the same projects.  I just assumed you were all LW employees.

I got some imput from an end user that gave me the opinion that the conversion was a very bad idea.  I just wanted to get some imput from a couple more people so that I could decide what the majority opinion was.  

Right now it appears this system is only in a handful of peoples hands like less than ten.  This could be horribly scewed but that's the impression I get from the guys on this site.  

I'm in the process of asking them-- if they can slap together :
Noveske or Rock 1/7 SS 11.5 barrel
an M4 ramped upper
ARM-R/M Midlength rail
LW gas system and whatever other parts it needs to work
I'll pay for it and try it out.  

I guess one of the major obstacles here is build times-- I guess it seems like this turned the user friendly M4 into a 1911esque project requiring months and months of lead times.

I was given the  facts as they are. Even thou I am involved with LW, what I posted are the facts as I can personally atest to.Take my answers as you see fit.

If I wanted to provide false info. maybe these answers would have suited your questions better. Used car salesman hat on:

Does it function blanks without a BFA? Hell ya!!!
Does it lower recoil? Recoil hell, my Red Rider BB gun has 100% more recoil than a LW upper/rifle
Have you fired subsonic through the upper with a suppressor to see if it does function? Sure does...everything, everytime....Sometimes it even cycles without ammo. F'ing amazing!!!!
Is it reliable? I've fired 3 millions round of Wolf ammo w/o any problem, no throat erosion and can hold sub 1" groups at 1 mile with my 10.3" barrel
Is it relatively clean? Still has the factory new car smell, even after 3 million rounds.



Real world answers:

Does it function blanks without a BFA? No, a BFA is required as pressure need to be introduced into the barrel/piston assembly to cycle the action. Without a bullet or a BFA hardly any gas gets diverted into the piston system

Does it lower recoil? All the uppers Darren and I own, plus the units we have test fired there is a difference in felt recoil. Like I stated before the recoil does appear to be less but is different than a gas imp. gun. Add an enidine buffer to the mix and it is almost nonexistant. Ask CaptnCrunch as he saw my 9 yr old daugther shoot my 10.3" in both semi and F/A during a demo we had with him. These are not scientific readings but perceived felt recoil. So actual g-forces generated during recoil are unknown to me, maybe Paul may have some data. As far as Pun's gun is concerned I would need to test fire it back to back with my 14.5 M4 upper.  

Have you fired subsonic through the upper with a suppressor to see if it does function? We just got our AAC M4-2000 in a couple of weeks ago, but have not shot ant sub-sonic through it. Ashooter and I test fired his LW/GP/JNR upper last weekend with a John's Gun suppressor. I do not know what type of sub-sonic ammo he brought along. During firing you could plainly see the bolt carrier group traveling about 1/3 of it's travel length. I personally think with either a lighter return spring or possible different ammo I could see it working.

Is it reliable? It is very reliable. I've only had ammo related problems. During the demo shoot we had with CaptnCrunch, he had some Bernal russian ammo with bad primers, the hammer would drop but no bang. The other time the Wolf ammo I was shooting was severly underpowered as it would fire the round, extract, eject, but the carrier group did not travel back far enough to strip the next round. Switched to another lot # of ammo and the problem went away.

Is it relatively clean? Have Knob Creek send you some photos of his comparison he did comparing his LW piston upper to a standard gas imp. upper. He has some good photos.

The question of queitness compared to a DI...well you have your own source.

If I have stated something above which is untrue or biased let me know, as all I was doing was giving you real world facts from a shooter perspective

Quoted: "them, if I recall correctly). Grenadier Precision is owned and operated by 48thHighlander (Darren) and misterjg (Jesse)." OK I had an MRP that was slated to be converted to gas piston and 48th Highlander was the guy that told me it couldn't be done and was also the guy who in my understanding would be doing the conversion.  That made me think that he was an LW employee.  All those names misterjg, simontan, 48thhighlander, the aformentioned LW names and yourself seemed to talk like you were all on the same team or working on the same projects.  I just assumed you were all LW employees. I got some imput from an end user that gave me the opinion that the conversion was a very bad idea.  I just wanted to get some imput from a couple more people so that I could decide what the majority opinion was.   Right now it appears this system is only in a handful of peoples hands like less than ten.  This could be horribly scewed but that's the impression I get from the guys on this site.   I'm in the process of asking them-- if they can slap together : Noveske or Rock 1/7 SS 11.5 barrel an M4 ramped upper ARM-R/M Midlength rail LW gas system and whatever other parts it needs to work I'll pay for it and try it out.   I guess one of the major obstacles here is build times-- I guess it seems like this turned the user friendly M4 into a 1911esque project requiring months and months of lead times.

Greeno,

Darren and I own and operate Grenadier Precision. We designed and manufacture the ARM-R rail which is designed to work with the LW system. We do consulting work for LW from time to time and handle LW's custom work and help with back log.

The MRP issue pretty much comes down to the amount of clearence under the 12 o'clock rail, mainly the two vertical legs under the picatinny rail. Once material is removed (machined) for clearance the walls would be paper thin. This could present the following problems:

1) The top rail could be sheered off or twisted off if the rifle was ever dropped on the front end of the rail.

2) During the machining operation this this material may tear off if the feed rate is to fast

3)The paper thin walls may blow out during venting of gas

I asked Dr Gary Roberts what he thought of the LW system he got (GP rail and 6.8 cal) and he said it seemed like an excellent product and execution and he was happy with it but it was only a sample of one and not enough time to come out publicly with a reccomendation.  I think the lack of use by those that have theirs will be your biggest problem in trying to get more answers.

Well Ill tell you about felt recoil...it was kicking so hard you would never know it was 5.56..it was kicking way harder than it should thats why I sent it back...hopefully when it returns it works right.They are sending back the "right buffer" with my upper but if I knew the system functioned the best with this buffer and an M16 firing pin..then I wouldnt have got the conversion..at least if I got the right firing pin I would never had known the system doesnot work with regular AR pins..info I could have used ahead of time to make the right decision for me.In my opinion it should work with any pin or buffer or use the parts its the suposed to work best with in the conversion.I was told this problem does not exist in their factory uppers so maybe something went wrong with my conversion.Ill see how it works whe nI get it back

I can no longer accesss the review I posted in the LW Industry section.  I guess it's been more than 3 months.  Maybe Paul can bring it back to life as peeps may wish to see a non-family member's assessment.

Recoil:  no less, but different.  More of a push
Accuracy:  on par with my DI ARs
Clean:  OH MY!!!  Ditto what MisterJG noted above...some residue on the barrel and rail near the FSB.  Shit on the outside instead of in the action.  A beautiful thing in my eyes.


Here are some pics of LW 14.5 piston after 2200 rounds







Here is the residue I and MisterJG noted near the FSB.


Now my Bushy DI pics after 200 rounds:

All Im saying paul is this should be known knowing AR users do use these parts.As far as the pin it should have been in the rifle it should also be known that only certain buffers work..if a 9mm buffer is the problem then you should say that when you do conversions.I would think thats important info to know especialy when its a work weapon.I dont have a crystal ball and more steps taken to insure the customer knows this.So with the L&W conversion M16 firing pins and this correct heavy buffer should be used..no AR pins wich is what my upper came back with..wich is the one I supplied and no 9mm buffers...well its now good to know these parts are unreliable for the system and if I knew this ahead of time I would have passed on the conversion.Gas carbines will function with both pins as long as the carriers a close bottom type and will function with every buffer.With an entidine buffer being looked at to supply with the upper I cant see how a 5.7 ounce buffer can make the system behave that way.And let me tell you your wrong the AR pins were bending the retaining pin and stopped when you gave me the right pin...like I said it should have come with the conversion...nice to know 9mm buffers dont work like I said you should make this shit known..I should just go back to direct gas.Your system goes good with the enedine buffer but not 9mm oh and the enedine buffer is not spec either.I didnt know it was for test and evaluation you just said your sending me the "RIGHT" buffer to work with the system.Oh and the moron who answers the phone for you recomended a 9mm to ease the recoil and I informed him that is what I was already running so some ones giving out the wrong info...but then this information should already be known to the user end of the system.Any reports on how your system is doing with the Marines? any pics? been what 6 months since their order was filled?

"I was given the facts as they are. Even thou I am involved with LW, what I posted are the facts as I can personally atest to.Take my answers as you see fit."

Right this is a simple problem-- turn a few out and let people who are not involved with LW tell other people what they think.  

It's kind of odd how we have someone complaining about excessive recoil and other people stating that a recoil reducer should have been stock on the weapons.  That sounds a little like a design issue.  

I guess another good question is how these myths became perpetuated in the first place.

I do think the best buffer is the one with the least recoil percieved by the shooter- but I also believe that it should operate equally well in direct gas weapons and weapons designed after them on more advanced computors.

I am not saying that you should do the impossible.  It would have been nice if you guys had known wether an MRP could be successfully converted or not before you told customers it could be done-- Water under the bridge I guess-- no sense adding insult to injury by stringing them along for months before delivering the final negative answer-- or of course waiting for the customers to move on.

I'm just wondering if you can build one of these for a paying customer using the rail system you designed for use with it, and add a common barrel that is becomming an industry standard to the mix.  This would be a simple task for anyone else and it is obviously simple enough for you guys as I see you have delivered three that fit this basic description to an SF team.  The two differences with mine should you possess the capability to build it are: barrel length being 11.5 instead of 10.5inches and addition of the gas deflector you claim to have also designed and produced for compatibility with ABS carbon fiber applied in the future should the said upper run as advertised.  

You guys could of course go ahead and not build me one and prove little aside from incompetence; or of course you could build one and have the value of a guy who has no reason to like you and good reasons to be dissapointed with your company possibly say some nice things about the product should there be nice things to say.

Of course there is another route-- I'm sure you may not [and probably don't] need the business in which case it would make sense to stop advertising with posts in a public forum frequented by consumers who may want to buy things advertised to them.  <This of course in the interest of not being thus harrassed by the aformentioned consumers.

So Paul this startling revelation of the 9mm buffer causing excessive recoil must be a new discovery or you would have told me when I talked to you 4 days ago when my upper reached you and I told you I was running a 9mm buffer.So that means it wasnt until you tested my upper with a 9mm buffer...you said you had to get one to test with because you didnt have it.Dont make me feel like I screwed upp,if that fact was known about 9mm buffers with your conversion you would have known 4 days ago...because thats pretty significant....like I said info that should be known knowing alot of us use 9mm buffers in gas guns with good results...dont shift the blame to me.So every body remeber if you get a L&W conversion to your upper hope fully they give you the right firing pin and tell you only standard carbine to H buffer to be used...what about the other military buffers H2,H3 thiose are used to.Any way this is all news to me...so I get my answer about whats wrong only it gets to me here instead of just returning a call...but its obvious attention to deatil is not a strong point design or manners wise with your company.I got the conversion because this site endorsed it and the info on the marines getting it but nothing is ever mentioned about the marines and what are the results from the suposed last 6 months of use?That was a big selling point...if recon Marines who only use the M4 were T&E on this system it must be good...I feel greatly let down and just want this nightmare done with and my upper back ASAP if not paul keep the upper and send me back the $550 for the conversion..Ill eat the upper cost and take $200 as it was a new barrel assembly....so if you want mail me a check for $750 and keep the whole damn upper Ill go back to direct gas...

Firearms are still a black art...I guess the same for testing and evaluating with all combinations of upper and buffer being tetsed before the conversion was done with non military rifles.Your design obviously does not take the civilian sector as a concern because if we were you would have already done research on that combo...being the 9mm buffer in ever growing use in direct gas carbines.Any one who knows ARs know there are slight differences in parts from an AR to a reak M4...this was not taken into consideration.I was told my upper was the first to behave this way...so I must be the only guy with a conversion who runs the 9mm buffer or not alot of people have conversions or just happen to be lucky enough to have already been using M16 firing pins and nothing heavier than an H buffer.

Deleted because maybe I didn't get what he was saying

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Quoted: That sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

I agree.  

Quoted: Quoted: That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I agree.

Seriously.  I couldn't have said it better myself.

Justin

What rail systems will work with the LW piston?

And what rail systems, if any CAN BE MADE to work with the LW piston?

Thanks guys.

Quoted: The Grenadier Precision ARM-R, and the ARMS SIR are two that will work without any modification.  As we have not modified any others, it is difficult to say whether they can be made to work, although I had a good meeting with Mark LaRue and it is likely that his may.

Ok thanks.  Keep us up to date as to what may work in the future (including the LaRue, etc.)

Also, from another thread you or another member mentioned that a LaRue gas block could be made to work with the addition of a taper pin or something?  What exactly is involved with that?

Thanks.

I guess I'm still waiting on an answer about wether they will build one with their Grenadier precision ARM-R/M.  

That's the better question I guess.

If you guys wanted to buy the barrel directly from Noveske with his Larue gas block and taper pin installed settup I'ld have no problem paying for that.  Or a pacnor polygonal or a rock 5r with a std pinned and ground down gas block like your other guns

The best way to handle this professionally is to remain silent, take the lumps, be called a moron by pun and move on.  But since all my involvement with you has been for free as one dude helping another, business practices cannot apply.

Folks would not believe what has gone on with you.  The amount of time, resources and money spent with you has been enormous and you have brought a few people to their knees.  I don't want to pile on here Pun, but you run to the internet before you call, then you call the owner of the company at odd hours on his personal cellphone.  He sends you parts, then a new claim about excess recoil comes out.  He PERSONALLY evals and shoots your upper with a standard buffer and finds functionally nothing wrong with it other than he notes your elevation spring is broken.  He still does not discount what you are saying and OVERNIGHTS it to us for a second opinion. We look at it.....no bind, no excess recoil.  Works like day 1 of the conversion.  We find out you are using a 9mm buffer.  Oops.  This is not an impingement gun, this is not a 9mm upper, it is a self regulating gas piston and ramps up inertia until it overcomes the mass that it is presented to it.  Just like the HK 416.  The heavier the mass the harder the hit.  This makes it more reliable as when the system gets fouled with dirt or sand, or no lube present, the piston compensates in a very simple manner to ensure reliability.

We pop in a 9mm buffer, we know there is going to be more recoil but we want to confirm it and yes, there is more felt recoil.  That 9mm buffer slams into the end of the buffer tube with 10 oz or whatever it is.  It is greater than twice the mass of an heavy buffer.  It can smooth out recoil in an impingement gun as it absorbs excess energy.  Not the case here.  All of a sudden your bent firing pin retaining pin etc made sense.  You forgot to add that piece of info.

A 9mm AR is direct blowback and depends on mass to delay the bolt until operating pressures our normal.  There are many here who advocate its use in inpingement 5.56 guns.  That is fine.  Colt does not.  Only because you run the risk of not having enough inertia to cycle a dirty weapon.  When LW and his engineers designed the system, they designed it for use with 5.56 components and parts.

I am sorry you feel the way you do.  Since you are airing your supposed dirty laundry, let me interject.  You write us all off as morons.  That really does bother me after I took it on myself to ensure you were happy.   In business it is known that there are a few people who try to milk you, who try to get as much as you can for free.  Who think they can blackmail and sabotage until you get your way.  I know.  I have one in the extended family.  She is bipolar with a borderline personality.  Business 101 tells you in this scenario your first loss is your cheapest loss, so pay the person off and get them out of your life and ensure they do not come back.  We did not do that to you.  We wanted to make you happy.  I have treated you with utmost respect.  I have spent hours typing back and fourth to you, trying to find soloutions for you, refinishing your gun for free.  Paul and Marianne have done the same, all of us in our off hours.

You started this mess with a post on AR discussions many months ago: "I am discusted with leitner wise"

If you recall you were pissed because the smith at the time expressed concern to you that he did not have the time or the desire to start grinding away at your flash hider and told you as much and offered to send it to the smith of your choice to have it removed. You threw an internet fit about how long he had it before he told you.  Truth be known you called Marianne the day after you shipped your gun and every day until it arrived.  Sadly for LW's other customers, you got bumped to the front of the line, because as you know from the rest of your life, if you are agressive and annoying you will get your way and get free stuff.  You also misrepresented your conversion as a LE department gun to get further discounts.

The best solution would have been to send your upper back, but I offered GP, FOR FREE to remove and re-attach your perm flash hider.  Paul OVERNIGHTED your upper to us.  Jesse removed the flash hider and we sent it back to LW.  LW did the conversion and OVERNIGHTED it back to us.  Meanwhile you were calling Paul LW on his personal cell phone, day and night, calling us day and night asking for updates.  Somewhere in the midst of this Marianne got tired of your abuse.  Got tired of listening to you say you don't have much money because of personal problems and bitching about said personal problems on the phone.  She gave you back what you had given her for over a month and told you she was sending your upper back.  You immediately called Paul trying to get Marianne fired or something playing the victem.
THEN I started getting calls.  "Wheres my property."  I never regretted helping anyone out as much as I did you.  I gave you free internet therapy while your upper was in transit by ups, tracking it for you as you were too lazy to track it yourself through every one of the several $50 dollar trips across the country.  Listen to your "Nobody talks to me like that, esp a woman." speeches.

Finally we got the upper back for conversion to perm attach the flash hider.  I had ordered it previously and had it waiting for install.  Then you asked me if it was the "Phantom with the pointy ends."  I said yes.  You pitched a fit you had the one on there with the flat end.   I had drive 100 miles round trip in my truck on a saturday to a gunshow to get you the friggen flash hider.  We installed it immediately.  So now I am out for 2 of your flash hiders, shipping, 100 miles of gas in a F250.  I ask how you want to pay for the flash hider.  You say you are not paying for it, bill LW.  We did the work for free but somehow you expected me to also pay for your flash hider when I was just helping you out.  

Normally we repark the barrel.  Jesse and I seeing your upper was aesthetically a POS purple scratched up early A2 bushmaster, said, "Lets really make this guy happy."  I emailed you and asked if I could refinish our upper for free.  Of course, you are used to this "free shit", so we stayed in the shop until 2am refinishing your upper.  It was BETTER than new.  We OVERNIGHTED it to you.  Paul said even though you hadn't paid, to ship it out to you and he would bill you later.

You got it back.  I heard nothing.  I got an email from you saying the refinishing was nice.  No word for a month.

Then you post how spectacular your weapon works and how it went through 3000 rounds without any maintenece or FTF in some thread on AR discussions.  You throw in how you loved the product but how you were berated by an LW employee.  

By now you have reached legendary status.  Everyone up to the CEO/CFO was involved and knew about what was going on.  At around the same time, I get a call from Paul saying you called him on a sunday night and told him you don't want to pay for your conversion, because you were treated badly by Marianne.   That was it for me.  I was fuming.  I had several hundred dollars into your upper myself and spent alot of time on it for free.  Not reimbursed by LW or YOU.  I made the offer and followed through!  LW had several hundred in shipping charges and many hours of executive time on the phone with you always treating you with great respect through your tirades, until you pushed poor Marianne over the edge.  I do not blame her for biting back.  NOBODY deserves abuse.  She offered your gun back at that point and you called Paul and refused to take it back unconverted when you had not paid a dime to them.

Fastforward to about 2 weeks ago.  I see your post pop up on the LW forum about how "LW has issues with bent firing pin retaining pins."  Well, this is a surprise to us.  We have never heard of this before.  We do demos and shoot many thousands of rounds full auto all the time.  We are privvy to any problems that have come up, and they never have involved LW parts.  

I suggest you get a new firing pin as for the life of me, I cant figure out what else it could be and a few years ago, there were problems with bushmaster FP retaining pins bending but I had always attributed this to the unshrouded firing pin of the BM bolt carrier.  Since your LW has a shrouded FP, it was the only course of action to follow.  LW immediately sends you replacement firing pin and retaining pins.  You say the problem went away.

Then another post about how your recoil is so greivous that your elevation adjustment will not hold.  Low and behold, your elevation spring is broken.  Then you start talking about recoil.  We all take this so seriously only to find out about the 9mm buffer.  I suppose LW should test the guns with other 9mm parts to be sure after spending 2 years optimizing for 5.56 function.  And some how you say this is a black mark on LW, and you call me a MORON after dicking with your crap, PAYING for your crap and giving you on line therapy and anger management advice.

Jesse and I personally make friends with all our customers.  It is not a MARKETING gimmick.  We are both firearms enthusiasts and enjoy spending time with like minded individuals.  Those that have dealt with us will testify we go above and beyond.  My company has much money through it this year, but to date, neither Jesse or I have taken pay.

Then you bark like a Junk Yard dog about the USMC?  I suppose you are somehow in the know.  Maybe the CO of the 4th MEB or MARCORSYSCOM should be at your disposal.  Maybe the SF and AF guys or consulate defence or the many LEO's should be at your becon call as well.  Maybe SIMON TAN who is a Malaysian CUSTOMER who is working with LW to provide the National Police, Malay SF, and the AUG replacement plan to give you personal insight.

Normally, I would remain silent while you ran amouk slandering folks protecting your fragile ego.  I am sure you bully people all the time, but I do not care to be privvy to your abuse and slander.  I have spent far to much time away from my family on off hours (even now typing this BS) trying to make you happy only to be called a MORON by you.  How many times do you think you can abuse people before they defend themselves.  I am not some SCHMUCK you pulled over for a traffic violation.

You paid $450 for a conversion of a to spec LW conversion.  You got exactly that in your circa 1985 upper.  As a matter of fact, it is better than it was when it was new.  Everybody has gone apeshit to make you happy.  We did it as good guys doing a fellow ARFCOMMER a favor.  I did what I did FOR YOU.  Not for LW.  They could have simply sent it back to you unconverted.  

Now I wasted more of Jesse's and my time, going over your upper with a fine toothed comb, testing it etc. only to find out you use a 9mm buffer.  I took it 100% seriously.  Your claims are in the best interest of LW to investigate as they have not had such claims in the past.  Then you throw another fit.  No thanks for helping you out, nothing.  I am not trying to berate you PUN.  Your one sided posts and personal insults are UNFAIR.  I am held accountable for my behavior, you should take personal responsibility for yours as well.  I am a consumer advocate.  I have been your advocate.  Only to be called a moron.  It is sad.  Your insult does not bother me as my ego does not need primping and I am confident in my abilities and not afraid to admit when I am wrong.  What does bother me is my wasted efforts.  I do not covet money, it is a tool to pay the bills.   All I care about is being honest, helping folks, having fun doing what we do and making good friends along the way.  My honor, integrity and self respect and most important to me, and now you call them into question.

I got involved with GreenO the same way telling him not to spend hundreds on an MRP until we have done a conversion on one.  I think it pissed him off a bit, and apologised, but I don't want him spending the bucks until we have actually converted the MRP we have in stock.  It requires some custom fixturing etc.  I told him a volvo COULD be converted, but the question is, are you left with a decent product at the end of the day, or did you spend a bunch of money trying to fit parts together that were not designed for one another.  Do you need to mill off so much material from the MRP that is essentially becomes weak?  We have not fully answered that question yet.  Consumer advocate.  If he is mad at me for giving my opinion, so be it.  He would be enraged if he spends $2000+ on something that is less than optimal.

We are not part of LW.  Long after your deal PUN, we set up to do LW's custom work as they are more geared to producing their basic products.  There was demand for it.  So we build the weapons with special barrels, the one offs.  These take much more time etc as they do not fit the production fixtures LW has developed.  They need to focus on production, and we focus on the weird and wonderful high dollar stuff that people want and need.  We are working development with Noveske and Jet Suppressors on a Kick Ass concept.  I am content.  I am happy I am doing everything I can to help LW deliver fully on all orders, as that is a responsibility I take on for fellow ARFCOMMERS.

This is the last you will ever hear from me PUN.  I do not want to be involved.  My good nature and faith in fellow human beings has got the best of me.  I have spent my own money and time on your gun to ensure you got what you wanted.  There is nothing left to do but walk away lesson learned.

I doubt ANY company on God's green earth would have played you game for so long.  For this LW should be Commended not berated.  Marianne apologised to you even if indirectly even though she personally has nothing to apologise for.  I will not allow you to sour me of other people.  I have met some of the most decent individuals on this site and I will continue to give them our full attention and ensure they get the product they expect and have paid for.

What a collosal waste of time.  I apologise for those who have had to endure reading this, but I need to close the book on this one.

Quoted: I have a problem with LW..... That I cannot seem to get one of their systems!!! C4

From what I have seen that is their biggest problem right now...  Getting enough out to folks...

My personal feedback about the LW uppers comes through Misterjg and 48thhighlander (now on refered to as the "GP guys) when they let me use there guns at an informal ARFcom shoot in San Antonio.  Both are extremely nice people who let anyone who wanted to shoot their guns - the only restriction was to let them cool a bit between every few shooters.  I think between the two times I was shooting with them I watched 1000 to maybe 2000 rounds got through two different guns.  As stated before about the only issues I saw were ammunition related.  

As for recoil, I have not shot a lot of M16/M4s on full-auto but these were very controllable - easy to keep on target.  Again, I'm not 100% sure, but I think they were running the Endine buffers and that might be another variable to consider.  Oh, and don't forget the show of complete stupidity where Jesse was firing the rifle with one hand full-auto.  The issue here is not safety - like someone latched onto and wouldn't drop in an earlier thread - but the fact that the recoil isn't that bad.  

On the subject of clean - KnobCreek's pictures are worth a thousand words.  Every other shooter who has watched the GP guys put a bunch of ammo through their guns and they come out virtually spotless has that puzzled look on their face for a bit - until they realize it isn't going to take hours to clean their guns!  

Me, I've been buying stuff off of ARFcom through group buys for a while now...  Darn near everything that hit that board if I really "needed" it or not.  I passed on the piston one...  I thought, "Piston?  Dude, the AR family has been around since the 60's and it runs pretty good.  Who needs a piston?"  All that went right out after I first had the chance to look at the ones the GP guys let me take a look at.  Those things ate up Wolf and I generally stay away from that stuff if I can because it is so dirty.  The biggest thing when shooting the Wolf in a LW piston gun is to get the red sealant off the bolt face.

pun - from the sounds of it, there was a little miscommunication between you and LW.  From what you and they have said, you've received pretty decent customer service from LW.  I guess from your experience I wouldn't blame LW for never wanting to convert someone's rifle and only sell complete uppers/rifles...  

Spooky

Oh, I don't work for LW either...

ETA:  I back 48th up in everything he said - he and Jesse are excellent gun guys who I would actually call good friends.  

Sorry about the drama guys.  Its like watching Jerry Springer or as the world turns.

GreenO, We have several Noveske barrels in stock for the SRT's.  If you want one longer than the 10.5, we can simply get it from Noveske.

Quoted: Sorry about the drama guys.  Its like watching Jerry Springer or as the world turns.

A couple years ago I ran the tech support department of a small ISP. Some customers just had to be let go as they used up many many times their subscription fees a month in tech support man hours.

You could even take their machine in...work on it for free....give them free parts..and still they complained. Eventually I'd just send them an AOL cd in the mail and let them know that their service had been terminated.

Your post brought me back man From reading both sides of this argument I would have no issues dealing with either you or LW. Your best will NEVER be good enough for some people.

Quoted: Quoted: Sorry about the drama guys.  Its like watching Jerry Springer or as the world turns. A couple years ago I ran the tech support department of a small ISP. Some customers just had to be let go as they used up many many times their subscription fees a month in tech support man hours. You could even take their machine in...work on it for free....give them free parts..and still they complained. Eventually I'd just send them an AOL cd in the mail and let them know that their service had been terminated. Your post brought me back man From reading both sides of this argument I would have no issues dealing with either you or LW. Your best will NEVER be good enough for some people.

AMEN Brother!!!

However when you need to call Microsoft and you have to pay "one-price" per call.  I sure like to keep them struggling for an hour on my problem to get my money's worth....

P.S. I always call as a last resort!!!

There is no argument really.  Never was.  LW has responded appropriately to every request, so that is why I am scratching my head.  I guess I volunteered to get in the middle which is never a good idea.

Quoted: GreenO, We have several Noveske barrels in stock for the SRT's.  If you want one longer than the 10.5, we can simply get it from Noveske.

Got any 12.5s

Have you guys been getting my IMs?

Quoted:
There is no argument really.  Never was.  LW has responded appropriately to every request...

A+

Wow..............................just wow.  Quite a story there.

Keep up the good work, guys.

Glad you've decided to stop when you did or this would have turned into a homo'ish sichiation as the only thing you didn't do for this customer was perform fellatio on him.  Good decision

Great job Darren!  It's like poetry ; some people really have a way with words.

Take care and have a happy holidays.

Reagards,

Justin

I hope this experience with the FRINGE ELEMENT doesn't cause LW or GP any hesitation to work with ARFCOM again... I'd really like to see another LW group buy.

Rmpl

You know what highlander I have all the IMs you sent me agreeing to how I was traeted was wrong when I first sent the upper in now its different.That firing pin should have been in the conversion to begin with and I told paul about it when he got the upper 5 days ago.I have every right to call the guy I talked to a moron because he suggested the 9mm buffer then paul says dont use it at all.After the way I was initially treated I should have stopped at that point or do you forget being the go beteween because it was marianne that called ma on my cell when I was at work cussing me out if you remeber..I think she even apologized through you or was that bull shit too.First my retaing pin was blamed then it was here its the firing pin..the one that should have come with the conversion...oh and it was $550 not $450.Every one here can have their opinion but highlander and Paul knows what went on and how I was treated 10 months ago when I first had this done.I get angry when this is a weapon I stake my life on and problem after problem keeps arising from..I have all the instant messages and you paul are the one that gave me the cell# telling me to call you after hours if things were not going right.Also highlander my upper is only 6 years old its FK marked its not 1985 manufacture.I can cure this right now Paul send me back my money for the conversion and the barrel and thats what will stisfy me if you want to make a mountain of this fine Ill file a complaint with the attorney generals office in my state and thats that.In the beginning highlander you also condemned the treatment I got by that company and marianne..now the tune changes...you know what you said to me in our conversatiuons..now its different kiss his ass as much as you want Im not in buisness with him so I dont have to.And if regular AR pins worked why did paul tell me only the M16 mil-spec pin should be used.Your people gave me the advice to get the 9mm buffer I didnt dream it up.Its good that this is way people who carry these weapons for protection of life on the job are treated.What  ever.Yea you should have a disclaimer saying what works and what does not.The retaining pins stopped bending with the new pin and only after there were 2 diagnoses that were wrong..then it was blame the Bushmaster parts..now its me using the wrong parts when it was suggested by your company to use said parts..the 9mm buffer.And you know what highlander you told me you were billing paul for the flash hider work and thats the least he could do after he sat on my upper for 3 months before telling me he couldnt do the conversion because it was permanent...maybe that info should have been given before you starteed conversions.You told me you were more equpped than Paul to do conversions and that he should let you do them so they can concentrate on their complete uppers.Plenty of mis information to go around...if you dont want to refund my money Paul fine..any body want to buy this upper from let me know..if not Ill take another road..legal one if I have to.And you agreed she did have something to apologize for...the yell;ing,swearing and berating I received from her on my cell phone at work...no one called you a moron just the one at L&W that sugested I use a 9mm buffer,Paul knew that when I talked to him...if 9mm bufferes do that then why didnt he say that then..because he didnt know.He even said fire arms are a black art so no one knew until tetsts were done.And this is my last time talking to you.I didnt say anything concerning you or your company but you feel the need to come running for Paul...Its good he can stand up for himself and hes not spoken for.I understand you have a buisness deal with him so kissing his as is more important than the truth..you know what that truth is and so does he thats all I have to say.People talk about Colts customer service...compared to L&W its paradise at Colt.

Quoted: You know what highlander I have all the IMs you sent me agreeing to how I was traeted was wrong when I first sent the upper in now its different.That firing pin should have been in the conversion to begin with and I told paul about it when he got the upper 5 days ago.I have every right to call the guy I talked to a moron because he suggested the 9mm buffer then paul says dont use it at all.After the way I was initially treated I should have stopped at that point or do you forget being the go beteween because it was marianne that called ma on my cell when I was at work cussing me out if you remeber..I think she even apologized through you or was that bull shit too.First my retaing pin was blamed then it was here its the firing pin..the one that should have come with the conversion...oh and it was $550 not $450.Every one here can have their opinion but highlander and Paul knows what went on and how I was treated 10 months ago when I first had this done.I get angry when this is a weapon I stake my life on and problem after problem keeps arising from..I have all the instant messages and you paul are the one that gave me the cell# telling me to call you after hours if things were not going right.Also highlander my upper is only 6 years old its FK marked its not 1985 manufacture.I can cure this right now Paul send me back my money for the conversion and the barrel and thats what will stisfy me if you want to make a mountain of this fine Ill file a complaint with the attorney generals office in my state and thats that.In the beginning highlander you also condemned the treatment I got by that company and marianne..now the tune changes...you know what you said to me in our conversatiuons..now its different kiss his ass as much as you want Im not in buisness with him so I dont have to.And if regular AR pins worked why did paul tell me only the M16 mil-spec pin should be used.Your people gave me the advice to get the 9mm buffer I didnt dream it up.Its good that this is way people who carry these weapons for protection of life on the job are treated.What  ever.Yea you should have a disclaimer saying what works and what does not.The retaining pins stopped bending with the new pin and only after there were 2 diagnoses that were wrong..then it was blame the Bushmaster parts..now its me using the wrong parts when it was suggested by your company to use said parts..the 9mm buffer.And you know what highlander you told me you were billing paul for the flash hider work and thats the least he could do after he sat on my upper for 3 months before telling me he couldnt do the conversion because it was permanent...maybe that info should have been given before you starteed conversions.You told me you were more equpped than Paul to do conversions and that he should let you do them so they can concentrate on their complete uppers.Plenty of mis information to go around...if you dont want to refund my money Paul fine..any body want to buy this upper from let me know..if not Ill take another road..legal one if I have to.

Do you want to sell the upper? What're the specs? If you're that dissatisfied, I'll take it off your hands and you can spend your money elsewhere. That way, we can both be happy.

Its an A2 FK marked upper with a 14.5/phantom HBAR.If your interested IM me..Im looking to recoup the cost of the conversion..$550 and $200 on the barrel it has 750- rounds on it and was used for carry as my duty weapon.

Quoted: Its an A2 FK marked upper with a 14.5/phantom HBAR.If your interested IM me..Im looking to recoup the cost of the conversion..$550 and $200 on the barrel it has 750- rounds on it and was used for carry as my duty weapon.

(2) IMs Sent.

Quoted: You know what highlander I have all the IMs you sent me agreeing to how I was traeted was wrong when I first sent the upper in now its different.That firing pin should have been in the conversion to begin with and I told paul about it when he got the upper 5 days ago.I have every right to call the guy I talked to a moron because he suggested the 9mm buffer then paul says dont use it at all.After the way I was initially treated I should have stopped at that point or do you forget being the go beteween because it was marianne that called ma on my cell when I was at work cussing me out if you remeber..I think she even apologized through you or was that bull shit too.First my retaing pin was blamed then it was here its the firing pin..the one that should have come with the conversion...oh and it was $550 not $450.Every one here can have their opinion but highlander and Paul knows what went on and how I was treated 10 months ago when I first had this done.I get angry when this is a weapon I stake my life on and problem after problem keeps arising from..I have all the instant messages and you paul are the one that gave me the cell# telling me to call you after hours if things were not going right.Also highlander my upper is only 6 years old its FK marked its not 1985 manufacture.I can cure this right now Paul send me back my money for the conversion and the barrel and thats what will stisfy me if you want to make a mountain of this fine Ill file a complaint with the attorney generals office in my state and thats that.In the beginning highlander you also condemned the treatment I got by that company and marianne..now the tune changes...you know what you said to me in our conversatiuons..now its different kiss his ass as much as you want Im not in buisness with him so I dont have to.And if regular AR pins worked why did paul tell me only the M16 mil-spec pin should be used.Your people gave me the advice to get the 9mm buffer I didnt dream it up.Its good that this is way people who carry these weapons for protection of life on the job are treated.What  ever.Yea you should have a disclaimer saying what works and what does not.The retaining pins stopped bending with the new pin and only after there were 2 diagnoses that were wrong..then it was blame the Bushmaster parts..now its me using the wrong parts when it was suggested by your company to use said parts..the 9mm buffer.And you know what highlander you told me you were billing paul for the flash hider work and thats the least he could do after he sat on my upper for 3 months before telling me he couldnt do the conversion because it was permanent...maybe that info should have been given before you starteed conversions.You told me you were more equpped than Paul to do conversions and that he should let you do them so they can concentrate on their complete uppers.Plenty of mis information to go around...if you dont want to refund my money Paul fine..any body want to buy this upper from let me know..if not Ill take another road..legal one if I have to.And you agreed she did have something to apologize for...the yell;ing,swearing and berating I received from her on my cell phone at work...no one called you a moron just the one at L&W that sugested I use a 9mm buffer,Paul knew that when I talked to him...if 9mm bufferes do that then why didnt he say that then..because he didnt know.He even said fire arms are a black art so no one knew until tetsts were done.And this is my last time talking to you.I didnt say anything concerning you or your company but you feel the need to come running for Paul...Its good he can stand up for himself and hes not spoken for.I understand you have a buisness deal with him so kissing his as is more important than the truth..you know what that truth is and so does he thats all I have to say.People talk about Colts customer service...compared to L&W its paradise at Colt.

Quoted: Any member that purchases this upper will receive the full Limited Lifetime Warranty.

If I get it, it'll more than likely get parted out for spares. I have absolutely zero need for an A2 14.5" HBAR, but a spare carrier and piston assembly would be nice.