Why do so meny people piss away arround $400 dollors on a quadrail handguard, not even attach anything to it (ok maybe one thing which is usuialy a dumb flashlight), Then go and buy the rubber suregrip panels for even more money?

Why not just use the standard handguards or an aluminum float tube for $20?

Seems like a big waste of money, that could be spent on other things the rifle could actualy use or even almost build another ar15.

Thats just my opinion, feel free to try an bitch slap me but I doubt anyone can come up with a good reason (other than attaching a m203) to spend $400 on a handguard.

Now THAT'S ignorance.

I can see why you're expecting to get "bitch slap"ped, with how you come across in your post.

There are individuals on this board whose knowledge and experience make my 20 years of active military duty seem kind of insignificant.

Your post is not helping you AT ALL .... and you're expecting someone to waste their time by replying?


Chris

You knew it was coming, so here it is... [slap]

There's really nothing wrong with not knowing something or why. But coming off the way you do is a problem.

Most of the railed handgaurds offer superior airflow, cooling and heat dissipation over standard ones. The bestf them free float the barrel which is a great advantage. The rails give you the ability to mount and dismount items simply and easily. Without them, adding a forward grip, bipod, some optics, a light and for some... a laser unit would be much more problematic. If you dont have a want or need for any of the above items, them maybe you dont need the $400 handgaurds. But dont ASSUME that because you dont want or need them no one else does.

Ignorance is bliss pal.
Jack

One day he'll have the money...

It isent that I don't have the money.... I have always viewed the ar15 to be a combat weapon and as souch it should be made cheap, reliable, and effective.

That way it dosent hurt if it gets dammaged, breaks, blows up, run out of ammo, broken case, or any of the other million things that can happen to it making the weapon non-functional resulting in you throwing the weapon away. (again combat situation only)

I like quantity, I would rather have another AR15 than a $400 glorified floattube with holes in it (I have a drill if you need it [;D]). If the SHTF it will help to have extra weapons to arm friends or family.

as for

Its a semi-automatic firearm, theres not enough recoial so you can't bumpfire it, you couldn't manage to fire faster than the weapon can sustain.




They make small rails that attach through the vent holes on standard handguards, or holes you drill in a floattube, or the samco m33 which is much cheaper and *works.

Im just trying to figure out why you guys think you need a $400 handguard on a gun that shouldn't cost more than $500 to build.

I only use reddots (all mine are A2 upper so I have backup iron sights) because they are great in CQ and they are cheap. Lasers, flashlights, bipods, and all the other junk you can do without if you ask me.

Long as it has a A2 upper, reddot, hogue grip, mags and ammo im happy.  

Reddots are the best optic for multiple targets inside of the 200 yards your going to be shooting.

Aluminum float tubes are usually coated with a finish that scratces and wears off under use in no time and look pretty damn unsightly IMO.  

A quad rail, with it's advantage of better heat dissipation through ventilation - not to mention those weaver rails act like a heat sink - can be covered with replaceable, cheap rubber covers that DON'T get scratched and make the tube more comfortable to hold during rapid fire and under wet conditions.  So what if someone has the rails and doesn't use them...  

I'm sure you have things that you don't use.

It isn't always about immediate use, it's about options and modularity.   The abiliy to mount mission-specific garbage on there if you want to.

For a lot of users, it's going to be for looks -nothing wrong with that either.  

i think its odd that youre arguing against having a RAS or SIR because you want a "combat weapon" when these very things were made to improve that "combat weapon" and are so highly sought after by folks wanting to recreate a "combat weapon".
seems like a bit of a contradiction to me.

i'll admit the price is what keeps me from an SIR but to those that can i say go for it. i would if i could.

If you really believe in this philosophy, why even own an AR? You could have 4 AK clones for the same price or 8 SKSs.



The sustained rate of fire (the fastest you can fire the weapon for an indefinite period of time) for M16 series weapons is 12-15rpm. I'm pretty sure all of us here can exceed that without having to bump fire.

Now throw in a shorter barrel with less mass to dissipate heat, different enivronmental conditions, etc.



$500 retail? I guarantee you your $500 AR will break down long before the $400 handguard ever causes a serious problem.

There is just too much thats completely wrong with the statements in your posts, I'm at a loss where to start. Even with your obvious illiteracy, you should be able to see the blatant contradictions that you've made.
Clearly you never had any legitimate question, making you just another [:K].

Because I already own ak47's and the ar15 is better all the way arround except for the ak's reliability.




I would like to know where you got the figure 12-15RPM because thats wrong, I ment you can't fire the weapons faster on semi than the barrel can take/sustain fire before you run out of ammo. Your not going to be able to carry much more than 1k rounds in magazines are you?



I guarantee if we sat at the range and unloaded until one of our rifles broke, one that I built would outlast most others.



My illiteracy? What because I don't punctuate? Your just trying to insult me now, maybe you should learn how to debate before you come in here with that shit.

I didn't make any contradictions yet.

I had a question, about why anyone would want to spend close to $400 on a quadrail. I still don't see any very good arguments for them.

if all you do is shoot during the day with a red dot, you will never need a flashlight.  for those of us that have to identify targets, menaing people, then the flashlight is of particular interest.

ar's are great hobby weapons which appears to be what you use it for.  more power to you.  but a combat weapon, whether in armed forces, law enforcement, or home defense, should at least have a light on it.  unless you expect trouble under range conditions in the daylight.


and yes you can put a light mounting ring through a vent hole, and i did that until i got tired of bumping it sideways AND had enough money for a 4 rail.  the light and vert. grip are the only things on it, too.  except the costly panels, used from EE $50.

While JustLooking's posts are inflammatory and sometimes poorly worded, the elitist attitude exibited by the first few posts (especially the "one day he'll have the money" comment) is what gives AR15 owners a bad rep in the gun community.

Exactly, I put this up expecting a debate. You guys put up reasons to get one, I try to knock um down a put up reasons not to..... obviously some of you are too childish and immature to understand the concept of a debate.

I got them for
1 better heat dissipation
2 Flexibility (when the next lates and greatest accessory arrives I can mount it)
3 better looking
4 I like the feel of RAS pannels and a foregrip.


I currently mount, a Harris bi-pod, Foregrip 3 RAS pannels and a flashlight.  Someday I may again buy an IR laser (hopefully next time I will have a PVS 14 to go with it.)

Without a Harris bi-pod, foregrip, 3 pannels and flashlight my rifle would be boring and not fully optimized for jack shit.

[b]I only have one set of hands (I NEED ONE GOOD AR not 10.) I currently have 2 (one accurate hunting gun and 1 10.5) and another would be useless to me.

You claim to be here for a debate, yet you've completely ignored the points that have been made in favor of the opposing argument.  You, sir, debate like a Democrat.  Why the fuck do you care what I or anybody else spend their money on?  More importantly, what makes you think that I or anybody else give a damn what you think?  Go back to DU and STFU.


For those who might read this later and wonder "why do we need railed handgaurds?":

- The "dumb flashlight" is a very useful tool on a long arm.  A suitable light is very bright and can illuminate an entire room.  It allows for positive target identification and can be blinding to the person on the other end.

- The forward pistol grip makes the rifle much more controllable in rapid fire.  Just because wannbes like JustL00king can't fire hammers fast enough to know the difference doesn't mean that others here can't take advantage of it.

- The additional cooling vents do a lot to increase airflow.  I don't need full auto to get that barrel smoking, nor do I need to waste ammo bump firing.  

- Those rails also make it easier to attach other accessories like bipod and sling swivels at any position you choose.

- Sure, there are things yo can do to attach accessories to the standard handguards, if you don't mind plugging that limited number of vent holes and haveing your accessories attached to a flimsy piece of plastic.

I like the vertical foregrip and the ability to swap a standard foregrip for an M900 easily. I always thought that the rails that attach to the plastic handguards would break off if whatever was attached to them got banged or torqued hard enough. I think you'd have to bang something attached to a RAS a lot harder. I haven't tested it. :)

Umm even a knights FF RAS is only $300.  quad railed FF tubes can be had for $100.  The KAC panels are better feeling in the hand than regular carbine or M4 handguards.  THese things cool better.  By free floating you can add or remove things and not change POI.  That is worth $100 to most anyone.  If you want the overpriced KAC products (I do) then you pay money for the name.  

I drive a Corvette (A Camero is just as fast)
I wear a Tag Heur (A Seiko keeps as good of time)
I have a FF RAS (There are other units that do almost the same thing but cost 1/3 the price)

[B]Im just trying to figure out why you guys think you need a $400 handguard on a gun that shouldn't cost more than $500 to build.
[/B]

[B]I guarantee if we sat at the range and unloaded until one of our rifles broke, one that I built would outlast most others.
[/B]

If you are telling the truth, please post where you can buy the parts for under $500 that would give you a weapon made better than Colt, Bushmaster or a few of the others.

To answer your question, people do it because they like to.  I just paid $80 for a FIRSH and forward handgrip.  For me, it was worth it, for you, it might not be, but the FIRSH is a little more solid than bolting things to the handguard.

Now, please answer first question, I am very interested.

The best reason of all: Because I can.  That's what freedom means.

O? So you mean there is enough advantage offered by the AR15 to offset its higher cost? You would rather have 2 AR15s that you feel are better rifles than 4 AKs? Kind of like how someone might rather have 2 ARs with $400 handguards rather than have 4 $500 ARs?



No, it isn't wrong. Check out FM 23-9 or any of the other military manuals dealing with the rifle. Heck, check out this [url=www.dtic.mil/ndia/2001smallarms/meyer.pdf] U.S. military PowerPoint briefing[/url] stating that the sustained rate of fire for the M4 carbine is 12-15rpm, with a max effective rate of fire of 90rpm.



Excessive heat is damaging to the rifle whether your barrel fails right at that given moment or not. It contributes to throat erosion, increases stress on the bolt and can create a cook-off - even on semi-only.

And by the way, you can fire weapons on semi fast enough to do damage to them in less than a thousand rounds. The local range does testing of advanced sights for defense contractors and due to city ordinance they can no longer use machineguns for this testing - so they use semi-auto AR15s. Come on down during Gunstock and talk to the guy who does the testing - he can't say anything about the sight but he is a regular fountain of knowledge on heat-related AR issues.



The best craftsman in the world can make a sharp looking spear out of balsa wood; but at the end of the day it is still balsa wood.

Your rifle might run like a champ and chances are good that we would run out of ammo before any rifle broke; but a rifle with a cheap no-name bolt has a higher probability of failure than a rifle with a magnafluxed milspec bolt - and you don't get magnafluxed milspec parts in a $500 rifle.

Whether you like it or not, the chances of a $400 handguard wearing high-end Colt M4 eating your rifle's lunch in a torture test are very good; precisely because the Colt will have better parts to start with and increased cooling during.

As someone who does not own a railed handguard, but definatley sees that one could be useful, I only wish to say, "Different tools for different jobs."  That is one of the major reasons that the AR is such a popular weapon.  Its ability to be configured in many different ways. As a precision varmit/sniper rifle, as an infantry combat arm, as a cqb arm in .223 or pistol calibers, as a high volume suppresive weapon (with some of the new uppers that allow for the attachment of a M249 box magazine and belt feeding), etc.  That's why all of us are here, right.  Because we can all find some variant that fits our own purposes!  For me if I'm using a sling, I dont need a carry handle, but I can see where someone else may find one helpful.  I have a bolt action Rem 700 PSS for longrange precision work, but I can see where someone else may find the increased capacity of a precision AR neccessary, or where it may reduce training/familiarity time for some deployments( if you know how to work one, you know how to work the other).  It's all just different tools for different jobs!  That's why I have four hammers, 20 screwdrivers, a corded and cordless drill, 2 skill saws, 3 hand saws, and 2 computers!

Hershey

Sorry to be so long winded

"Elitist" attitude?  

WHAT in the world are you talking about?!  

The first few posts seem to ME a proper response to a piss-poor, condescending post by an individual that put down a good number of knowledgeable, skilled AR owners on this board with his comments and generally shitty attitude.

It's VERY hard to respond to comments such as his with anything more than the "money" response.

So again .... WHAT in the world are you talking about?


Chris

You didnt come here to debate, you came here to argue.

I NEED a flashlight mount.  I LIKE a verticle forgrip.  Both are attached to my KAC RAS in one clean simple package.  

Take a carbine course at Gunsite (or anywhere for that matter) on a nice 100 degree day and you'll SEE the advantages of improved cooling.

And Im sorry, the plastic Samco handguards are NOT going to last through hard use like the KAC or ARMS units will.

Some of us use, or at least are prepared to use, our ARs for more than playing on the range.

You are NOT debating .... you started a pissing contest and it's gone downhill from there.

The way you get a healthy debate going is NOT to discredit EVERY POINT that someone brings up, especially with responses that are clearly BULLSHIT.

YOU are setting the standard for "childish and immature" in this thread.

Time spent on your part doing a search and some reading on this subject will help you out much better than this thread will.


Chris

Oh my God!!!!!

A combat flash light is a essential part of a combat rifle, it assist you in identify and search for your target in dark areas, and or help you blind the target for a monent so you have a better advantage in getting that first round into the target before the target decides to shoot.

Remember the bad guy is always hiding in the darkest spot. learn low light tactics, it might help save you life one day.

Yall have fun feeding the [:k]

Im out.

[beathorse]

Ya', guess the guys in combat using those combat weapons don't use railed forends, foregrips, lights and lasers, etc. in combat!

Well, lets test that theory. Come to FL next weekend. We'll go to the range. We will duct tape your hand to the barrel of my carbine. I will then proceed to fire 2 full 30 rounds magazines, at 12 rounds per minute. Do you think it will be too hot for you to stand?

looking, biggest problem here is you clearly appear to be talking without any hands on experience. Have you used any of the systems you are criticizing? Have you used any of the systems like the First Samco you are promoting? If you have used them, for how long and under what conditions?

Even if you have not used them, are you making these arguments based on your knowledge of each ones design and manufacturing process, materials used? If not, all you are doing is making arguments without any foundation at all.

Whats worse is you respond by trying to knock down the justifications offered to you by people who have used both. Its sort of like a young virgin without a lick of experience trying to tell a guy with half a dozen kids and a wife who loves him how to make love. One is speaking in hypotheticals and often misplaced presumtions. The other speaks from experience.

What you are offering is not debate. It is arguing almost for the sake of argument itself.

I bought my FF RAS because my standard handguards rattled a bit.  Also, I knew that even if I could permenantly stop the factory handguards from rattling, I didn't like them.  They were the most unattractive piece of the carbine.  They seemed cheap and ugly.  I didn't buy my AR to be a combat weapon, mostly just as a toy (though I am extremely safe and take shooting very seriously).  Yes, I just said that I spent about $500 (FF RAS, sling mount,tools to install) because my handguards rattled and the looked cheap.  I chose FF because if I am spending on any RAS, it might as well improve consistancy.

I have no plans of adding anything to my RAS, other than the existing sling mount  Just the plastic covers for me.

--Dan

Y'all know you can't teach a know-it-all anything.
You state it's your opinion, others with substantial experiences have theirs too, only they are based on lessons learned in competition, research and profession (that of killing bad guys).
You may see a Timex doing as well a job as a Rolex, as long as you don't take it 4000ft under water.  In the mean time, you should reconsider questioning the wisdom of those that do own tools like that.

I was referencing 3rdtk, notack, and Lumpy's posts.  Some of the replies were honest and informative.  I should have pointed that out too so my post didn't seem like a blanket statement.

I'll admit I question the real-world usefulness of all the gadgets and gizmos people attach to their rail systems.  I certainly question the high-price of some of the rail systems.  However, if I had unlimited funds, I would probably build an AR with a rail system.

JustLooking isn't conducting himself with as much tact as he could.  Some other folks aren't conducting themselves with as much tact as they could.  I say lead by example, but thats just IMO.  Flame away.

So calling me an elitist makes you have more tact...

I get it.

All the while, Im an idiot for spending money on an expensive handguard and a stupid flashlight.

Like your double standard [;)]

Who 'throws away' their rifle when they run out of ammo???  I always throw my rifle at the bad guy just like they do in the movies, but luckily I have bungee tactical lanyard so it bounces right back to my hands...

[img]http://www.bangedup.com/archives/bitchslapdd234.gif[/img] Request Granted

My thoughts exactly, and thats the reason brought me to buying SIR. Who cares if I have any accessories on it?

Everyone else is doing a fine job of flaming so I won't.

Versatility of adding and removing accessories.

More rounds before you say ouch!

Makes your AR look more custom.

Don't have one myself and don't really want one but see the usefullness.

Tj

Try not to put words in my mouth.

I didn't call you an elitist, I said your post had an elitist attitude.

I also didn't say you were an idiot for buying a rail system and accessories.  I even said if I had unlimited funds, I might build an AR with those accessories.  I said I [b]question the usefullness[/b] of such accessories.  To [b]question[/b], in that sense, means to thoughtfully and rationally disagree.  There's nothing wrong with that.

We all slip up, especially when dealing with people who are new to a certain aspect of the hobby.  I just wanted to steer us back in the right direction.  I guess I am trying to storm hell with a water pistol.

Argument and debate go hand in hand... sometimes. Its when people like you come in and start with the insults, it gets ugly.



Now thats the first good argument with a context.



That's 1 for Aluminum over samco.



Unless your going to leave your flashlight on all the time giving away your possition, your not going to turn it on until you think you see someone. In which case he can probably see you. Now, your going to take the time to find and work your on/off button or pressure switch so he has all the time he needs to shoot?

When the you turn on the flashlight no matter how bright you think it is, it's not going to blind or stun the suspect. That person can always see the source of the light (have someone else point the flashlight at you) You will get shot before you ID the person.

If your still alive, not shot at and the armed suspect dosent know your there, you turn on the flash light it's going to scare him and he's probably going to shoot.

These are reasons I see a flashlight as dead weight that you can do without.

Your not going to carry a empty gun that you don't have ammo for with you in a combat situation. You throw it away and pick something else up because you can only comfortably carry two long guns.

Im just sorry so meny people who have a bad attitude took everything I said as a personal insult, came in here and ruined this thread.

Go smoke some weed get drunk, fuck the girlfriend/wife, and learn to relax a little.

Hmmmmm.  Perhaps they train regularly and realistically so they don't have to "take the time to find and work your on/off button or pressure switch."  It is second nature and the hand knows where the switch is (shame on you if you don't!)

Perhaps, since the flashlight beam goes where the muzzle is pointed, when "that person can always see the source of the light" actually does see the light, he is already in your sights.

Perhaps there is an issue of liability, especially for cops, and you MUST identify your target, determine whether it is a threat or not, then take the appropriate action.

I guess all those PROFESSIONALS that go in harm's way on a regular basis must be wrong.  All those SWAT cops, soldiers, regular cops on patrol, etc. that have flashlights mounted to their weapons should ignore their training and hard-earned experience (paid for with blood, sweat and sometimes their comrade's lives).  Not everyone needs a light but they do have a very important purpose for those that do.

Have you ever seen a SWAT entry weapon that didn't have a light on it?  Do you think these pros have a weapon-mounted light just because they think it looks cool?  Years ago, LAPD SWAT found that having a weapon-mounted light was so useful that they used to attach flashlights to their entry guns with hose clamps or duct tape!  There weren't any commercially available lights back then so they had to improvise.

I find it highly unlikely that if you locate a potential threat, know it's basic location, and activate your light for final positive identification prior to engagement that the threat is going to be able to react to you before you can pull a trigger. That threat is going to have respond to your positioning while reaffirming his and make his shot.

A quality light will most certainly blind and disorient an opponent. If you do not understand this then you've not worked with any of the 125 to 225 lumen capable lights that Surefire produces. Even the amazingly compact Streamlight M3/M3X will give you the same physical effects to the human eye. Think of walking  out onto a city street some afternoon when coming out of a dark building or movie theater. That's paltry compared to what these devices will do to an opponent in a totally dark scenario.

Another factor that has not been addressed in this thread is that of Night vision compatibility. Frequently I shoot with a PVS 14 monocular. On my Surefire M900 is an IR filter. When used in a wooded area or inside a building the dark corners are brought to life whereas they would not be with the lack of substantial ambient light. Also included on the M900 are minute navigational lights that have kept me from skinned shins on more than one occasion. The 14 is a top quality unit, but even it has limitations that the options I've selected for my FF RAS MRE will only enhance.

In addition to the M900 I routinely run an IR laser atop the RAS. Since I presume I'm directing this at someone who hasn't used head mounted NV in a combative situation or training situation I can only say that the capabilities here are phenomenal. Yes my EOTech 552 and Aimpoints are NVD capable, and given an extra second or two I can sight through them (And let me just say an EOTech hologram floating in the air before you in green hue while all else, front sight and EOTech body, has faded to invisiblity is nothing short of eerie.) but the fact is the only truly effective way to fight with head mounted night vision is via an IR laser.

In short, that four rail RAS gives me that ability to perform all of these functions. You may have seen pictures from Afghan and Iraq of troops "flex cuffing" their PAQ 4C's to their Colt M4 oversized handguards. Evidently it works in a field expedient situation, but I'll take the rock solid foundation that my equipment interfaces with for that added security.

The main difference I see online when it comes to gun forums is that you have two basic groups. "collectors" and "end users". Which do you fall under? If you enjoy range shooting, collecting, hobbying with these then that's fine. I'm sure you've got something you can spend many hours of enjoyment on.  If your of the other side of the coin, then you tend to lean towards what works and what will prevail.

The above quote shows that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about and have never tried using any of these systems.

You sound like a young virgin saying that you don't see what the big deal about sex is because it's just an exchange of bodily fluids.  

The person who you flash can fire in your general direction with a handgun, in a fraction of a second. It will be damn close,  too close for comfort so I wouldn't do it. If he saw you first or at the same time and you take the time to flash/ID him you will probably be shot.

LEO's have liability issues, you don't. You should already know whos in your house and where they are.

You don't wip out your rifle at every strange noize do you? You don't scare the crap out of your kids with a firearm when they come home late, do you? You don't sleep with a handgun under your pillow do you? You don't go charging into someone elses home do you? I hope not.

I'll say it again, Im not trying to piss you off. I am just trying to show you, your not going to go for a gun unless you *know* you need it, for Most of us the only way you be shooting people is if they break into your home and if you wake up before the suspect finds you.

On the other hand, The SHTF I dont think your going to worry about it, shoot first and ask questions later.  

That's totally wrong.  Anyone who uses a firearm for self defense has a liability issue.  Cops just have a greater liability because they are paid to carry a gun, they are more likely to get into a shooting and their agency has deep pockets.



Ok, I'll bite.  Here's a simple scenario:  You hear a window break and muffled voices and you're pretty sure someone has broken into your home.  Your kid's are asleep in their room down the hall.  You hear footsteps approaching and realize someone is standing in your doorway.  Would you shoot?  You know that your kids are in their room, don't you?  After all, they would never leave their room and go to your room if they are scared.  So don't worry about it - it's safe to shoot because you know where your kids are, right?



Really?  Sorry guy, I can see that I'm wasting my breath.  You don't seem to have any experience, training or knowledge of the law to base your opinions on.

Civilians who discharge a firearm inside their residence [b]DON'T[/b] have liability issues? Last time I checked, I was responsible for [b]every[/b] round I discharge. Remember the  old "be sure of your target and what it is beyond it" rule? Bullets can go through walls, someone can be on the other side of that wall and catch "lead poisoning". Guess what? It would be your fault.

How about "Do not point your weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy"? Well, how can you be sure if you want to destroy something or not if you're not sure what it is?

There have been plenty of accidental shootings of family members because the shooter did not identify their target. Spouses sleepwalk, kids come home late, etc., etc. I'm glad I don't share a range with you or live next door to you. I would have to say, based upon your statements, you don't seem to be a very responsible shooter.

Also, you've obviously never had a Surefire 65+ lumen light shined in your eyes in a dark room. It will temporarily blind. I never saw a small light that could be so bright until I started buying Surefires.

You're getting in to territory you know nothing about. If you don't understand the importance of a handheld or weapon mounted light then it makes perfect sense to me why you consider the money spent on an RAS "pissed away".

JustL00king, you sir, have absolutely ZERO clue as to the real world use of firearms. Zilch. Nada. Nothing.

I only hope that no one actually reads what you are saying and believes it. Following your thoughts will get someone killed.

I like my quad rail because it looks cool. And I have a flashlight/laser on it.

[ROFL]  I think the DA in your district will disagree.  I'd like to visit your town where people are not held accountable for shooting indiscriminately.