User Panel
Posted: 6/27/2015 2:12:11 PM EDT
Hi Folks,
A forum member asked me if I would give some insight into how our M4's handle on the range because I've started threads on the AK's, pistols and .50 Barretts. Here's a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can't bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance log on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. Tourists get to shoot everything from Type 99 Arisaka's, M1 Garand C and D's, MP-44's, G43's, M2HB's, 240's, 249's, MG42's, MG34's, M-14's, Luger's, Swedish K's, M203's, M79's and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day. Here are some "facts" about OUR experience with M4's on the range. - Some of our M4's have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced, gas tubes have been replaced, BCG's have been replaced but what sets it apart from the AK47's is that upper and lower receivers continue to function. AK's get to about the 100,000+ round count and rails on the receiver will start to crack. It's an easy fix with tig welding but they crack. We have yet to lose an upper or lower receiver from cracking. - We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear. - Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months - Charging handles will "stretch" allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out - Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5" full-auto's will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight - We have yet to lose a single flash hider as compared to muzzle brakes on an AK-47. The muzzle brakes will literally split in half, looking a like bird with his beak open and go flying down range. - We no longer use ANY piston conversions or factory pistons guns with the exception of the HK-416 "knock-off" TDI upper. I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. I was SO pissed because I spent all that money on the gun and it couldn't last 10,000 rounds. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. I don't know who makes or made the J&T barrels but I was so pissed that actually wasted the money on a MR556 and that's all I got from it. I purchased two of the 14.5" TDI knock-offs approximately 6-8 weeks ago and they have been on the line daily with ZERO issues. I only purchased them because people will come in specifically request the "416" and even they've never handled a weapon their entire lives, they KNOW that the top half isn't the "416 like in COD/MW". - USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell's with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg'ers with new weapons. We don't have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines. - Cleaning bolts and carriers is such a pain in the ass as compared to our AK's, G36's, SCAR's, ACR's and most other platforms. We throw them in the ultrasonic cleaner filled with Simple Green (EPA, OSHA and disposal concerns for us) and they never full remove the carbon from the bolts. The armorers spend so much time cleaning them and keeping all the parts together as compared to most other platforms. - The only piston system to last on the range so far is the HK416 and TD415 system. Ever other systems we have tried has failed in one way or another. I won't say who's broke or how they broke so PLEASE don't ask. Each mfg has their own system for cleaning intervals and we may not follow their way. We have a way of cleaning and keeping records that suits our needs because of so much use. - There is company that has an AR system that has some "parts don't need lubrication" and that failed before the end of the first day. I don't think some mfg's understand that people REALLY use their weapons and when you're rocking full-auto all day they NEED lubrication. My armorers and RSO's were laughing when it seized it up because we knew there was NO way it would last on our range. - The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier. These are just a few of the things that I can think of on the top of my head. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try to respond sooner than later depending on my schedule. V/R Ron ps: I am sure there are some grammatical errors as I tend to read the words into a sentence that are not there. Some sort of dyslexia-type of issue that plagued me through eight years of college. |
|
|
Originally Posted By LAYGO: I've been reading ARFCom for years as a guest, but I registered just to say thank you for these comments. My fiancée is a psychologist for the VA. She deals with those guys too and I hear her words echoing in your statements. Our Father's served and she saw what the VA did and didn't do for them & she wants to change that. I sincerely appreciate what you and she does for our vets. THANK YOU. View Quote |
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We haven't lost any bolts in our 20" guns and that includes one that just went down for "keyholing". I believe I purchased the barrel from Del-Ton about five years ago and it more than served it's purpose. V/R Ron View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Blain: @Hendersondefense Sounds good Ron! What info did you find out? Thanks! V/R Ron Any idea on the round count for those setups? Thanks for the updates. |
|
|
I tried to rent a m16 at the shitty place in Myrtle Beach like 10 years ago. They had a 6 hour wait so I was out. I think they tore that place down when they widened the road. You could make bank there.
|
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Exactly! The forward assist assy and dust cover assy are still in excellent condition and it's MUCH easier to just transfer those parts over to a new stripped upper receiver. That poor upper has done it's time and now it's time to just fade away into the depths of a box full of parts that have been sacrificed tot he gun gods V/R Ron View Quote |
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We had a couple of weapons go down today. One of our M134 "miniguns" suffered a crack in the main housing and we lost another M4 upper that snapped at the extension of the upper receiver. I guess we've lost quite a few uppers in this manner. This Colt M4 already had it's upper swapped once prior to this catastrophic failure today. It happened on the second to last round and it only twisted slightly when it stopped functioning. The RSO immediately replaced the weapon and gave her a new a magazine but again, nobody was injured, the barrel assembly moved forward no more than an inch and twisted just slightly. I don't know who made this upper but it's an Anchor-Harvey forging with "M4" engraved on the face of the receiver. Edited to add: This upper receiver was put into service on 27 MAR 18 but we have no records of who manufactured it where we got it from. I don't know how it ended up on the line because the barrel was Charles Daily Defense (marked CDD 5.56 1/7 NATO) and I don't know how we ended up with it. The only thing I can think of is that we took it in trade and the staff put it into service as we don't sell these parts at Battlefield Vegas. V/R Ron https://i.imgur.com/b8HC0BN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg View Quote |
|
Do not take life too seriously. You will never get out of it alive.
"my arms are so fucking enormous , come to me please." -sksAL 8-29-15 |
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We had a couple of weapons go down today. One of our M134 "miniguns" suffered a crack in the main housing and we lost another M4 upper that snapped at the extension of the upper receiver. I guess we've lost quite a few uppers in this manner. This Colt M4 already had it's upper swapped once prior to this catastrophic failure today. It happened on the second to last round and it only twisted slightly when it stopped functioning. The RSO immediately replaced the weapon and gave her a new a magazine but again, nobody was injured, the barrel assembly moved forward no more than an inch and twisted just slightly. I don't know who made this upper but it's an Anchor-Harvey forging with "M4" engraved on the face of the receiver. Edited to add: This upper receiver was put into service on 27 MAR 18 but we have no records of who manufactured it where we got it from. I don't know how it ended up on the line because the barrel was Charles Daily Defense (marked CDD 5.56 1/7 NATO) and I don't know how we ended up with it. The only thing I can think of is that we took it in trade and the staff put it into service as we don't sell these parts at Battlefield Vegas. V/R Ron https://i.imgur.com/b8HC0BN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg View Quote |
|
Without blood, it doesn't count!
"A gun, like any other source of power, is a force for good or evil, being neither in itself, but dependent upon those who possess it." |
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We had a couple of weapons go down today. One of our M134 "miniguns" suffered a crack in the main housing and we lost another M4 upper that snapped at the extension of the upper receiver. I guess we've lost quite a few uppers in this manner. This Colt M4 already had it's upper swapped once prior to this catastrophic failure today. It happened on the second to last round and it only twisted slightly when it stopped functioning. The RSO immediately replaced the weapon and gave her a new a magazine but again, nobody was injured, the barrel assembly moved forward no more than an inch and twisted just slightly. I don't know who made this upper but it's an Anchor-Harvey forging with "M4" engraved on the face of the receiver. Edited to add: This upper receiver was put into service on 27 MAR 18 but we have no records of who manufactured it where we got it from. I don't know how it ended up on the line because the barrel was Charles Daily Defense (marked CDD 5.56 1/7 NATO) and I don't know how we ended up with it. The only thing I can think of is that we took it in trade and the staff put it into service as we don't sell these parts at Battlefield Vegas. V/R Ron https://i.imgur.com/b8HC0BN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg View Quote |
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We had a couple of weapons go down today. One of our M134 "miniguns" suffered a crack in the main housing and we lost another M4 upper that snapped at the extension of the upper receiver. I guess we've lost quite a few uppers in this manner. This Colt M4 already had it's upper swapped once prior to this catastrophic failure today. It happened on the second to last round and it only twisted slightly when it stopped functioning. The RSO immediately replaced the weapon and gave her a new a magazine but again, nobody was injured, the barrel assembly moved forward no more than an inch and twisted just slightly. I don't know who made this upper but it's an Anchor-Harvey forging with "M4" engraved on the face of the receiver. Edited to add: This upper receiver was put into service on 27 MAR 18 but we have no records of who manufactured it where we got it from. I don't know how it ended up on the line because the barrel was Charles Daily Defense (marked CDD 5.56 1/7 NATO) and I don't know how we ended up with it. The only thing I can think of is that we took it in trade and the staff put it into service as we don't sell these parts at Battlefield Vegas. V/R Ron https://i.imgur.com/b8HC0BN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg View Quote |
|
"Shooting unsuppressed is just uncivilized." - 1UP5DN
PM me for an Active Junky referral link |
wow. So avoid Charles Daly ARs? I never know they offered them. CD is simply a rebranded line IIRC. They don't make their own stuff.
Does the hive think that was a material flaw, or could it be an installation error, overtorqueing of the barrel nut perhaps? |
|
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/ |
Originally Posted By MRW:
wow. So avoid Charles Daly ARs? I never know they offered them. CD is simply a rebranded line IIRC. They don't make their own stuff. Does the hive think that was a material flaw, or could it be an installation error, overtorqueing of the barrel nut perhaps? View Quote V/R Ron |
|
|
That's fascinating. I wonder if you'd get any more life out of a steel upper.
|
|
Married the most eligible woman on ARFCOM.
|
Originally Posted By backbencher:
That's fascinating. I wonder if you'd get any more life out of a steel upper. View Quote All should have a bit more support around that point on the AR, probably would deal with the stress a bit better over time. Thing is, I doubt it matters much for us as if we can afford to shoot that many rounds we can easily afford to simply replace the upper. |
|
|
Thermal fatigue...?
|
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: This has happened to every upper receiver we've used to be honest. I just don't pictures in time before the RSO's start tearing things down. It's happened to Colt, Daniel Defense, PSA and every other brand we use. It's just part of the game when going through a high volume of ammo V/R Ron View Quote |
|
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: This has happened to every upper receiver we've used to be honest. I just don't pictures in time before the RSO's start tearing things down. It's happened to Colt, Daniel Defense, PSA and every other brand we use. It's just part of the game when going through a high volume of ammo V/R Ron View Quote |
|
Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/ |
|
Originally Posted By Rusten:
And now I feel a lot better about my purchase View Quote |
|
|
Originally Posted By AASG:
How many rounds does that take before that happens? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By AASG:
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: This has happened to every upper receiver we've used to be honest. I just don't pictures in time before the RSO's start tearing things down. It's happened to Colt, Daniel Defense, PSA and every other brand we use. It's just part of the game when going through a high volume of ammo V/R Ron @Hendersondefense Any updates on the LMT enhanced bolt orders? Chris Bartocci made a great video about them here and mentions in thousands upon thousands of rounds he hasn't been able to break one yet! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZkK70Miz60 Enhanced AR/M16/M4 Bolts and Bolt Carriers - Part 1 |
|
Put down the Optic! Learn how to shoot the REAL way!
*************************************** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ligUEAJH25E |
I wonder if constant uneven forces contribute to that, and if you trued the receivers if that would fix it or make it last longer before a break?
|
|
Tastes like chicken.
|
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
I wonder if constant uneven forces contribute to that, and if you trued the receivers if that would fix it or make it last longer before a break? View Quote I doubt a normal semi AR would see this, the only other failure like this has been with mil m4s, ie guns shot a lot and abused. |
|
|
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
I would wager its heat/cooling along a stress point (the end of the threading) I doubt a normal semi AR would see this, the only other failure like this has been with mil m4s, ie guns shot a lot and abused. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
Originally Posted By pavlovwolf:
I wonder if constant uneven forces contribute to that, and if you trued the receivers if that would fix it or make it last longer before a break? I doubt a normal semi AR would see this, the only other failure like this has been with mil m4s, ie guns shot a lot and abused. Highly doubt most of us here will ever experience that failure except maybe those with M16 lowers |
|
|
Ron,
As always the info is greatly appreciated!! Should be up in your neck of the woods before the end of the year, looking forward to it. Question: Do you mainly run A2 hiders on your rifles? Do you use any breaks/BMD's to assist with the muzzle climb? I know at my local indoor range not many people can stand being in a lane next to me for that reason. |
|
|
Originally Posted By ShooterDrew:
Ron, As always the info is greatly appreciated!! Should be up in your neck of the woods before the end of the year, looking forward to it. Question: Do you mainly run A2 hiders on your rifles? Do you use any breaks/BMD's to assist with the muzzle climb? I know at my local indoor range not many people can stand being in a lane next to me for that reason. View Quote V/R Ron |
|
|
@Hendersondefense you ever get those LMT bolts?
|
|
Put down the Optic! Learn how to shoot the REAL way!
*************************************** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ligUEAJH25E |
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: All of our M4's/AR15's use A2 flash hiders with the exception of the M16A1's with the birdcage flash hiders. V/R Ron View Quote While our time there was relatively short ($$$), it was an unforgettable experience. Plus, everything worked and nothing broke, so thanks for all your hard work! |
|
|
Awesome thread! Thanks for all the info.. very interesting reading through the posts. How are the SCAR16's holding up these days?
|
|
|
I think at this point we need a summary of findings. I will have some time next week and see if I can put together
|
|
|
|
Originally Posted By everready73:
That would be great! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By everready73:
Originally Posted By myhatinthering:
I think at this point we need a summary of findings. I will have some time next week and see if I can put together I’m also kind of a dork when it comes to creating random Excel files. So, if anyone wants some assistance, let me know. I’d likely be willing to take this on individually. But, not knowing if @myhatinthering has any affiliation with BFLV, I don’t want to get started if he’s got access to additional data that’s not found in this thread. |
|
|
Those fancy LMT bolts every make it into the rotation?
|
|
|
David “Blaze” Blazek
AR-15 Parts www.SpiceTac.com |
The only things he should need spares of on the LMT enhanced bolts are the proprietary extractors and extractor springs. LMT should provide him with some extras of those free of charge with all the business he gives them.
|
|
Put down the Optic! Learn how to shoot the REAL way!
*************************************** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ligUEAJH25E |
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We had a couple of weapons go down today. One of our M134 "miniguns" suffered a crack in the main housing and we lost another M4 upper that snapped at the extension of the upper receiver. I guess we've lost quite a few uppers in this manner. This Colt M4 already had it's upper swapped once prior to this catastrophic failure today. It happened on the second to last round and it only twisted slightly when it stopped functioning. The RSO immediately replaced the weapon and gave her a new a magazine but again, nobody was injured, the barrel assembly moved forward no more than an inch and twisted just slightly. I don't know who made this upper but it's an Anchor-Harvey forging with "M4" engraved on the face of the receiver. Edited to add: This upper receiver was put into service on 27 MAR 18 but we have no records of who manufactured it where we got it from. I don't know how it ended up on the line because the barrel was Charles Daily Defense (marked CDD 5.56 1/7 NATO) and I don't know how we ended up with it. The only thing I can think of is that we took it in trade and the staff put it into service as we don't sell these parts at Battlefield Vegas. V/R Ron https://i.imgur.com/b8HC0BN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg View Quote Seen that happen before, but never one the cracked off. |
|
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms
Thomas Jefferson If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so. - Thomas Jefferson |
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We had a couple of weapons go down today. One of our M134 "miniguns" suffered a crack in the main housing and we lost another M4 upper that snapped at the extension of the upper receiver. I guess we've lost quite a few uppers in this manner. This Colt M4 already had it's upper swapped once prior to this catastrophic failure today. It happened on the second to last round and it only twisted slightly when it stopped functioning. The RSO immediately replaced the weapon and gave her a new a magazine but again, nobody was injured, the barrel assembly moved forward no more than an inch and twisted just slightly. I don't know who made this upper but it's an Anchor-Harvey forging with "M4" engraved on the face of the receiver. Edited to add: This upper receiver was put into service on 27 MAR 18 but we have no records of who manufactured it where we got it from. I don't know how it ended up on the line because the barrel was Charles Daily Defense (marked CDD 5.56 1/7 NATO) and I don't know how we ended up with it. The only thing I can think of is that we took it in trade and the staff put it into service as we don't sell these parts at Battlefield Vegas. V/R Ron https://i.imgur.com/b8HC0BN.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wUnjRAh.jpg View Quote Any record on round count for this upper receiver? TIA. Tig |
|
Code word is Yellow Umbrella.
|
I bet he has some hot updated info for us!
|
|
|
Originally Posted By Brok3n:
Awesome thread! Thanks for all the info.. very interesting reading through the posts. How are the SCAR16's holding up these days? View Quote |
|
|
Originally Posted By JohnMH92: I second this. Looking to purchase a scar 16 here soon. Was wondering how they hold up. Not that it would change my mind as I run maybe 3k rounds of 5.56 a year and would not nearly punish it like you guys do but would be interesting to know!! View Quote I apologize that I haven't been been updating the various threads but between work and personal life, it's just been non-stop. I am taking six of the staff to Big Sandy in a few weeks and I plan on talking to them about helping me out updating the various threads. V/R Ron |
|
|
Any Palmetto State Armory AKs on the line yet? I know Josiah was looking at making it happen.
|
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: SCAR's are STILL kicking butt on the range. We've lost a few more bolts over the last year but still not even close in comparison to AR15 bolts. I apologize that I haven't been been updating the various threads but between work and personal life, it's just been non-stop. I am taking six of the staff to Big Sandy in a few weeks and I plan on talking to them about helping me out updating the various threads. V/R Ron View Quote |
|
|
Originally Posted By Kvjavs:
Any Palmetto State Armory AKs on the line yet? I know Josiah was looking at making it happen. View Quote V/R Ron |
|
|
Originally Posted By Capta:
Do you guys have any Beretta ARX100s running, and if so how are they doing? Thanks. View Quote V/R Ron |
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
We do have one Beretta ARX100 that we cut down the barrel and put on the line as an SBR but NOT full-auto. It doesn't get a bunch of use but zero issues since putting in the line some time ago. V/R Ron View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By Capta:
Do you guys have any Beretta ARX100s running, and if so how are they doing? Thanks. V/R Ron |
|
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
SCAR's are STILL kicking butt on the range. We've lost a few more bolts over the last year but still not even close in comparison to AR15 bolts. I apologize that I haven't been been updating the various threads but between work and personal life, it's just been non-stop. I am taking six of the staff to Big Sandy in a few weeks and I plan on talking to them about helping me out updating the various threads. V/R Ron View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By HendersonDefense:
Originally Posted By JohnMH92: I second this. Looking to purchase a scar 16 here soon. Was wondering how they hold up. Not that it would change my mind as I run maybe 3k rounds of 5.56 a year and would not nearly punish it like you guys do but would be interesting to know!! I apologize that I haven't been been updating the various threads but between work and personal life, it's just been non-stop. I am taking six of the staff to Big Sandy in a few weeks and I plan on talking to them about helping me out updating the various threads. V/R Ron |
|
|
Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: We do have one Beretta ARX100 that we cut down the barrel and put on the line as an SBR but NOT full-auto. It doesn't get a bunch of use but zero issues since putting in the line some time ago. V/R Ron View Quote |
|
|
Any update on the PSAK-47s? Very anxious as an AK nut.
|
|
|
Originally Posted By Kvjavs:
Any update on the PSAK-47s? Very anxious as an AK nut. View Quote https://www.ar15.com/forums/ak-47/AK-abuse-update-on-Page-11-/64-159106/ |
|
|
Will you be getting many of the new Brownell's HK 416 kits for the range?
|
|
AR15/AR10 student since 1980s
Co-author of 6.5 Grendel Reloading Handbooks Vol I & II NRA Certified Instructor: Basic, Pistol, Rifle, RSO, Shotgun |
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.