Hi Folks,

A forum member asked me if I would give some insight into how our M4's handle on the range because I've started threads on the AK's, pistols and .50 Barretts.

Here's a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can't bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance log on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. Tourists get to shoot everything from Type 99 Arisaka's, M1 Garand C and D's, MP-44's, G43's, M2HB's, 240's, 249's, MG42's, MG34's, M-14's, Luger's, Swedish K's, M203's, M79's and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day.

Here are some "facts" about OUR experience with M4's on the range.

- Some of our M4's have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced, gas tubes have been replaced, BCG's have been replaced but what sets it apart from the AK47's is that upper and lower receivers continue to function. AK's get to about the 100,000+ round count and rails on the receiver will start to crack. It's an easy fix with tig welding but they crack. We have yet to lose an upper or lower receiver from cracking.

- We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear.

- Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months

- Charging handles will "stretch" allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out

- Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5" full-auto's will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight

- We have yet to lose a single flash hider as compared to muzzle brakes on an AK-47. The muzzle brakes will literally split in half, looking a like bird with his beak open and go flying down range.

- We no longer use ANY piston conversions or factory pistons guns with the exception of the HK-416 "knock-off" TDI upper. I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. I was SO pissed because I spent all that money on the gun and it couldn't last 10,000 rounds. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. I don't know who makes or made the J&T barrels but I was so pissed that actually wasted the money on a MR556 and that's all I got from it. I purchased two of the 14.5" TDI knock-offs approximately 6-8 weeks ago and they have been on the line daily with ZERO issues. I only purchased them because people will come in specifically request the "416" and even they've never handled a weapon their entire lives, they KNOW that the top half isn't the "416 like in COD/MW".

- USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell's with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg'ers with new weapons. We don't have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines.

- Cleaning bolts and carriers is such a pain in the ass as compared to our AK's, G36's, SCAR's, ACR's and most other platforms. We throw them in the ultrasonic cleaner filled with Simple Green (EPA, OSHA and disposal concerns for us) and they never full remove the carbon from the bolts. The armorers spend so much time cleaning them and keeping all the parts together as compared to most other platforms.

- The only piston system to last on the range so far is the HK416 and TD415 system. Ever other systems we have tried has failed in one way or another. I won't say who's broke or how they broke so PLEASE don't ask. Each mfg has their own system for cleaning intervals and we may not follow their way. We have a way of cleaning and keeping records that suits our needs because of so much use.

- There is company that has an AR system that has some "parts don't need lubrication" and that failed before the end of the first day. I don't think some mfg's understand that people REALLY use their weapons and when you're rocking full-auto all day they NEED lubrication. My armorers and RSO's were laughing when it seized it up because we knew there was NO way it would last on our range.

- The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier.

These are just a few of the things that I can think of on the top of my head. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try to respond sooner than later depending on my schedule.

V/R
Ron

ps: I am sure there are some grammatical errors as I tend to read the words into a sentence that are not there. Some sort of dyslexia-type of issue that plagued me through eight years of college.

I'm not surprised in a full auto application.

I'll still pick a nice melonited barrel over chrome lined for anything that I don't intend to do a bunch of mag dumps through, though.   They shoot better, they're easier to keep rust-free under free float handguards, and the cost of the barrels vs. the cost of the ammo makes them pretty much a non-issue.

From what I understand of both types of barrels AND in my non-scientific opinion.. yes. This whole thread was started with the intent of helping the guy/gal who may not have the biggest budget to make the purchase they really WANT and instead make the purchase they can really afford and be comfortable with.

V/R
Ron

Time has become something that I don't have much of anymore. We have grown so much over the last five years that I don't get to spend as much time as I would like to with the armorers. Also, I have advised the armorers pull parts/guns more often than spending time trying to diagnose a problem. We just don't have the time to find out why a particular AR or AK is short-stroking and it's much easier to just replace them.

I do check on the armorers at least 3x daily to see what's going on and still give guidance when I see them stuck on a particular weapon. I can tell that most of my armorers eventually want to spread their wings and get their own shops so I try my hardest to help them along. I am twice the age of most of them and have many years of figuring things out and I always tell them that this is the best OJT for a future endeavor they will ever have (not trying to be conceded). If they can keep our weapons running at this fast pace, they will definitely be able to handle any work that may come through their doors in a controlled environment.

V/R
Ron

I wanna be an armorer for you

Why are melonited barrels easier to keep rust free?

The various nitriding processes (Melonite, Tenifer, QPQ, etc. included) leave a surface that is both extra hard and extra smooth, and is extremely corrosion resistant.

These processes are a form of case hardening, and they chemically change the surface of the metal into a form that is just not susceptible to rust.  This is because, like bluing, nitriding is an OXIDIZATION process.  The form of oxide is stable and does not react to moisture and oxygen the way plain steel does.

The flip side is that the depth of the surface treatment is pretty minimal.  It’s only about 0.008” to (at most) 0.024” thick.  That’s fine for most surfaces, but nitrided surfaces are not anywhere as heat resistant as chrome, so the bore - especially at the throat and crown - will eventually erode, and much more quickly than chrome lining will.  This leaves unprotected steel exposed, and that steel is even less heat resistant.  That’s why those chrome line barrels survive so much longer at BFV.

The erosion is way slower if you’re not running full auto, if you’re letting your barrel cool reasonably after a rapid fire string, and so on.  In a semiauto rifle, you may notice a small to zero lifespan difference, depending on how hard you are on the barrel.

Lecture over.  Thanks again, Ron, for all the work you put into this thread!

No kidding!  Learn from the best and getting paid to do it?  What a deal!!

Great info in this thread.  Been shooting chrome lined MG barrels in my M16/M4 since 1986 and have had to replace only one CL barrel due to it giving up the ghost (keyholing).  That barrel was severly abused doing 100 round C-Mag dumps - sometimes 2 back to back.  Gas tubes usually melt around that point.  I started measuring erosion at the throat after extreme shooting sessions to get a feel how much wear I was getting.  Basically came to the conclusion that as long as I limit mag dumps to 20-30 round mags with a little bit of time for cooling its basically a non-issue for a long long time.  IMHO I dont think CL is really needed for a semi auto unless you are a hard charging trigger puller for hours at a time, and most of us arent.  I'd bet most barrels will outlive the shooter/gun owner these days.  Its the heat that kills barrels.

This

Thanks Ron for posting, there's a lot of good info that has been field tested. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Just wanted to repeat this sentiment.

Oh this just got interesting.  LaRue rifles on the line perhaps?

Nope just dillo dust in the store.

What kind of buttstocks do you use on your AR’s, and how well do they hold up?

Thank You Ron

This is why I have been following your thread.  Thank you for hiring retired US service veterans!

No kidding, whish there was a place and person running said place like you have going on the East coast.

Exactly if he was in NC It would be a dream job

Myrtle Beach would be a gold mine.

Who cares what state, I'd pack up tomorrow Sounds like they have people way more qualified than me though.

I gotta go there someday.

Concur on Myrtle Beach, close enough I may apply.  Tired of deploying.

CD

Ron,
I am sure your vets have already suggested this or it has already been posted. Your night shooting guests would thoroughly enjoy platoon size element "mad minute". There is something quite close to euphoric experience when brining all weapons systems into concerted fire! Volume + tracers = an unexplained awesome shooting experience! Great way to kick off a night in Las Vegas sequins optional!!

No archives.

Does HD/BLV use any KAC SR15 or LMT CQB MRP for their ARs?

We are in the process of doing something in that order. I haven't posted much here lately because we've been devoting so much time for an outdoor area. We've got on M60A1 main battle tank (with NFA registered main gun) that will be ready for test-firing. We are waiting on our DD license to be approved so we can start working on re-arming our Leopard 1A5's. Also, we got some flamethrowers, plenty of M203's and M79's along with a few mortars so outdoor night firing with night vision is definitely on our list of things to do.

V/R
Ron

I believe 99% of them are the Magpul MOE stocks and we've only replaced the FDE's because they are harder to keep "looking" clean that the OD or black variants.

V/R
Ron

We are using the KAC SR-25 and though it doesn't rented every day, it has seen it's fair share of rounds and no issues so far.

V/R
Ron

Mark, I apologize I never replied. This is the first time I've been on this thread since in ages. Email will be sent.

V/R
Ron

I don't have the time to browse the forums like I used to but didn't recently read some posts about the hate for PSA products while on FB. I don't get a discount from them and we order online just like everybody else and owe them NO favors but I can tell you from our experience, those cheap complete uppers just run and run. I know that there are several subcontractors who make parts from them and I am not a liberty to discuss the details but I don't understand all the hate for PSA? Is there something that I've missed?

V/R
Ron

Good afternoon Ron.

Amazing goings-on in the desert.

Much appreciated if you could give an update on your PSA equipment.

Thank you and wishing you and your staff continued success.

ETA: I've seen some PSA "hate" as well and can not understand where it's coming from as well.

One post right here in the PSA Industry forum claims that you yourself have been breaking PSA bolts at an alarming rate and don't understand why. Truth?

Quite simply, many people who spend $1500+ on high end rifles don’t want to believe you can get a reliable AR for less than half that. There is a lot of marketing to the same effect.

I’ve always recommended people look at PSA premium ARs and use the money they save on optics and ammo.

Thank you for the continued updates. They are very much appreciated.

I don't believe that I posted that we've broken them at an alarming rate but I can provide another piece of the puzzle that I myself wasn't even aware of.

The purchasing and moving of ammunition is not on my radar. My wife and our operations managers handle all the logistics of getting ammo in and putting it down range. During SHOT Show, we had several ammo mfg's stop by like usual and negotiate our yearly purchases. During this time, there were also some high-ranking DoD officials having a meeting with other private industry execs and the LTC was commenting on how we run our operation. I told him that we are putting 250,000-350,000 rounds down range per month, depending on the season. After that conversation, my operations manager told me that he didn't want to interrupt or correct me during the conversation but that our numbers were in the 500,000-600,000 range monthly. I was honestly shocked at the number. He started laughing and said something along the lines of "yeah boss.. why do you think we are always stressing on keeping new parts in the bins and keeping the ammo coming". My armorers no longer come to me for about 90% of the parts as they have a weekly meeting my operations manager and they get all their parts ordered. I still spend 3-4 hours every single day of the week scouring the internet and websites looking for the other 10% of the parts that have be tracked down.

So, if we are losing bolts faster than normal it's because have double the amount of ammunition we are putting down range, which relates to how much more wear and tear is being place on the weapons. I haven't heard one of the armorers ever complain about the PSA bolts. On the other hand, I have heard them request that we don't purchase parts for various weapons from certain mfg's. Again, I don't know a single soul over at PSA and have never been offered a discount but will continue to use their products because they work.

V/R
Ron

@hendersondefense

Ron,

I'm on a completely different scale from Y'all, but PSA has done very well by me for all my AR's so far.

Accurate, Reliable and Affordable.  My brother was very upset that his Colt didn't shoot as well (as accurate or as reliable) as my 1/2 price Palmetto Premium M-4 carbines.

Just curious if you have run any Sig M-400s on your range and the experience with them?

THANK YOU again Ron for sharing your real world experiences with numbers most of us could never dream to shoot in a long Long LONG time!

BIGGER_HAMMER

Hi again Ron.

Found a thread going right here in this forum titled: "bought a PSA upper." It's a few threads down here on this front page.

Member "Zerlak" disputed member "lazyengineer" when lazyengineer praised PSA gear.

Zerlak stated: "Actually he posted that he had numerous PSA bolts go down very early and at low round counts. He couldn't figure out what was wrong/different about them.

The Colt bolts are his longest lasting."

The "he" being you Ron.

There are some other members in the same thread ragging on PSA to various degrees.

This is where so much garbage gets into people's heads.

Nope, some people just scoff at items that are affordable so, In their minds it’s junk.  I have 2 uppers from PSA and havnt had one single issue.

@HendersonDefense

What happened to your membership?

[Trimmed - PM sent to HD instead]

That’s good to hear.  I don’t currevtly have any PSA stuff but I’m always tempted for budget builds.  Thanks for sharing that.

Fanboys of other manufactures who are upset that your experience with PSA products invalidates almost everything about PSA they have been claiming for years.

Unbelievable, you guys do not miss a beat. Carry on and Godspeed!!

It would be really cool to see how the SR15/SR16 hold up at Battlefield Vegas. The longer gas system, E3 bolt made of Aermet 100 alloy, and CHF barrel should in theory give them longer service life than other AR’s.

Out of the box stock they are about the softest shooting, lightweight, and most fun AR’s I own. Definitely my wife’s favorite as well.

Late reply but - on parkerized barrels, you bake out the oil when you get them really hot, and then they'll pick up little bits of surface rust here and there.   Not really a functional problem, but about all you can do is reapply a bunch of oil and let it wick over the exterior of the barrel.

The melonited barrel exteriors are much more corrosion resistant when not oiled.

Obviously this is not a big deal if you're going to shoot out the barrel in a year or two.

Question about your contract with LMT.  Have you tried using their "Enhanced" bolts in your ARs?  They supposedly have never broken one, and you mentioned that it's cheaper for you to buy higher quality first and get more life out of it.

I'd love to see you test those out.

Those and the fully plated Chrome BCG from daniel defense.

Also, any progress on the highlighted part from your earlier post below?

Would you say an SR25 is worth the money compared to other .308 ARs with your round count and experience? Are you considering SR15s at all?

I didn't realize PSA Premium M-4 s was that cheap. I'll have to drop by PSA and get a few . SC and a Georgia run coming up .

@WarDawg

If I recall correctly, the in store pricing at PSA isn't always as good as that they offer online.

I can second the good experiences with all the parts I have sourced from PSA.  Nitride barrels, complete premium bolt carrier groups, and I think a few upper receivers.    Obviously I don't have any comparison with HD regarding round counts.  I was pleasantly surprised at the accuracy that I get from PSA barrels that have cost me roughly $120 per.

I will talk to my operations manager on Monday and get some ordered up. It would be nice to see how well they do on our range.

V/R
Ron

Count me in for an update on this.

FYI, JP Enterprises also makes an enhanced bolt. Might be worth a look.