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Posted: 6/27/2015 2:12:11 PM EDT
Hi Folks,
A forum member asked me if I would give some insight into how our M4's handle on the range because I've started threads on the AK's, pistols and .50 Barretts. Here's a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can't bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance log on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. Tourists get to shoot everything from Type 99 Arisaka's, M1 Garand C and D's, MP-44's, G43's, M2HB's, 240's, 249's, MG42's, MG34's, M-14's, Luger's, Swedish K's, M203's, M79's and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day. Here are some "facts" about OUR experience with M4's on the range. - Some of our M4's have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced, gas tubes have been replaced, BCG's have been replaced but what sets it apart from the AK47's is that upper and lower receivers continue to function. AK's get to about the 100,000+ round count and rails on the receiver will start to crack. It's an easy fix with tig welding but they crack. We have yet to lose an upper or lower receiver from cracking. - We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear. - Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months - Charging handles will "stretch" allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out - Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5" full-auto's will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight - We have yet to lose a single flash hider as compared to muzzle brakes on an AK-47. The muzzle brakes will literally split in half, looking a like bird with his beak open and go flying down range. - We no longer use ANY piston conversions or factory pistons guns with the exception of the HK-416 "knock-off" TDI upper. I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. I was SO pissed because I spent all that money on the gun and it couldn't last 10,000 rounds. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. I don't know who makes or made the J&T barrels but I was so pissed that actually wasted the money on a MR556 and that's all I got from it. I purchased two of the 14.5" TDI knock-offs approximately 6-8 weeks ago and they have been on the line daily with ZERO issues. I only purchased them because people will come in specifically request the "416" and even they've never handled a weapon their entire lives, they KNOW that the top half isn't the "416 like in COD/MW". - USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell's with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg'ers with new weapons. We don't have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines. - Cleaning bolts and carriers is such a pain in the ass as compared to our AK's, G36's, SCAR's, ACR's and most other platforms. We throw them in the ultrasonic cleaner filled with Simple Green (EPA, OSHA and disposal concerns for us) and they never full remove the carbon from the bolts. The armorers spend so much time cleaning them and keeping all the parts together as compared to most other platforms. - The only piston system to last on the range so far is the HK416 and TD415 system. Ever other systems we have tried has failed in one way or another. I won't say who's broke or how they broke so PLEASE don't ask. Each mfg has their own system for cleaning intervals and we may not follow their way. We have a way of cleaning and keeping records that suits our needs because of so much use. - There is company that has an AR system that has some "parts don't need lubrication" and that failed before the end of the first day. I don't think some mfg's understand that people REALLY use their weapons and when you're rocking full-auto all day they NEED lubrication. My armorers and RSO's were laughing when it seized it up because we knew there was NO way it would last on our range. - The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier. These are just a few of the things that I can think of on the top of my head. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try to respond sooner than later depending on my schedule. V/R Ron ps: I am sure there are some grammatical errors as I tend to read the words into a sentence that are not there. Some sort of dyslexia-type of issue that plagued me through eight years of college. |
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Originally Posted By Remman:
Id bet that the counter will wear out and stop working before the rifle. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Remman:
Originally Posted By Slimjim:
Have you considered one of the new Secubit Round counters from CAA on your AR's and other railed firearms as a way to track round counts and keep digital records? CAA Secubit Its all solid state, I bet it would last. Just seems like it would be perfect for his use. |
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Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:
Would be faaaaaar cheaper just to buy a new receiver. Machinist time ain't cheap. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By SecretSquirell:
Originally Posted By scudzuki:
To save the receiver would it be possible to open up the slot (width and depth) and insert a new gas key channel, retained with permanent Loctite? Joe Would be faaaaaar cheaper just to buy a new receiver. Machinist time ain't cheap. Exactly! The forward assist assy and dust cover assy are still in excellent condition and it's MUCH easier to just transfer those parts over to a new stripped upper receiver. That poor upper has done it's time and now it's time to just fade away into the depths of a box full of parts that have been sacrificed tot he gun gods V/R Ron |
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Not a hijack, more of an info share.
We have had a rash of premature weapons malfunctioning due to not resetting on the burst cam (deep notch). Trigger would have to be pushed from the rear to reset. Not what I want to be doing on the training line in students hands. After numerous occasions it turned out that it was an entire series of Colt M4's that all came in 2012. My Instructors and I started trial and error parts swapping with new replacements and it turned out that the hammers were suffering premature wear, possibly from impropper heat treat. A memo was sent up the chain and we ended up ordering a pile of spare hammers. Now when it occurs, hammer gets replaced and the problem in fixed. Have you experienced anything like this with your Colt products? S/F Al |
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Originally Posted By CATM-Al:
Not a hijack, more of an info share. We have had a rash of premature weapons malfunctioning due to not resetting on the burst cam (deep notch). Trigger would have to be pushed from the rear to reset. Not what I want to be doing on the training line in students hands. After numerous occasions it turned out that it was an entire series of Colt M4's that all came in 2012. My Instructors and I started trial and error parts swapping with new replacements and it turned out that the hammers were suffering premature wear, possibly from impropper heat treat. A memo was sent up the chain and we ended up ordering a pile of spare hammers. Now when it occurs, hammer gets replaced and the problem in fixed. Have you experienced anything like this with your Colt products? S/F Al View Quote Al, We removed all the factory hammers, triggers and disconnectors and replaced them with JT Distributing M16 parts and sold them off as a lot. I couldn't tell you if there were any issues or not but these were new productions rifles that had just been delivered from the factory. V/R Ron |
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Was that because you don't trust the Colt parts or because you can flip them for a profit? Or some other reason?
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Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/ |
Originally Posted By MRW:
Was that because you don't trust the Colt parts or because you can flip them for a profit? Or some other reason? View Quote Most likely it was because the rifles were bought as semi autos and converted to full auto, requiring a M16 FCG. Thus no need for the semi parts any more. |
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" Laziness is an essential part of all walks of engineering."
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Any updates on how the PSA's are doing?
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To state the obvious, this thread is amazing. Thank you very much for sharing all this!
Now I'm just hoping that the industry is paying attention. Here is their golden opportunity to prove that their products really are as good as they claim them to be, by sending them to you for free (frankly, they should be paying you, if anything) for a real torture test. You might want to trademark "Battlefield Vegas approved" and come up with a logo for that. ;) I'm looking forward to seeing it on no-nonsense, proven reliable gun parts in the future. |
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Tremendous, TaylorWSO!!
Thanks for compiling that!! |
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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of all the things to do in vegas, this about the only thing im interested in
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abandon all hope ye who enter GD
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Originally Posted By smitty_007:
I concur! Thank you for putting that together. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By smitty_007:
Originally Posted By EVR:
Tremendous, TaylorWSO!! Thanks for compiling that!! I concur! Thank you for putting that together. +1 it saved me a ton of time looking for what I was looking for. Thx |
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I now have a ban button. Want to see me use it? Keep it up. - Lancelot
You do not fight out of hate, but rather out of the love and compassion you have for those you are trying to protect. |
Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
If your married it's about the ONLY thing to do that won't cause a divorce View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Originally Posted By TheBigStink:
of all the things to do in vegas, this about the only thing im interested in If your married it's about the ONLY thing to do that won't cause a divorce Unless you sit on the M134 all day and run over a few dozen cars with a tank |
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Originally Posted By oogabooga289:
Unless you sit on the M134 all day and run over a few dozen cars with a tank View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By oogabooga289:
Originally Posted By The_Hammer:
Originally Posted By TheBigStink:
of all the things to do in vegas, this about the only thing im interested in If your married it's about the ONLY thing to do that won't cause a divorce Unless you sit on the M134 all day and run over a few dozen cars with a tank So when are you planning the trip? I'll bring the beer and BBQ. |
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I now have a ban button. Want to see me use it? Keep it up. - Lancelot
You do not fight out of hate, but rather out of the love and compassion you have for those you are trying to protect. |
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Hi Ron,
You've mentioned earlier that you guys have had a good experience with SIG rifles & carbines. I wonder if the ones that you have are original Swiss firearms (SG 550/551/552/553), or made in US by SIG USA (556/556xi/551A1)? |
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Just to add to the info for those pushing the use of the Knights upper:
the KAC bolt requires the use of a Knights barrel extension, only available on a Knights barrel, only available on a Knights complete upper. |
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valheru21:"The argument, "this gun won't go down in value," is used to convince the wife that you are not making a bad financial decision when purchasing a firearm. You're not ACTUALLY supposed to ever sell the gun."
Matt |
Awesome Info!!!! I've been wondering this for a long time Do melanite barrels actually last longer than chromed end barrels? Also are the scar barrels lasting the 26,000 RDS FN claims? Thanks!
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I've learned a lot, and will save a lot of money. Thank you for finding the time to take on these threads and share your experiences!
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Probably the best read I have seen here.
Thank you for taking the time to do this and for also taking care of fellow service members. |
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RIP: LTC D. Cabrera and SGT C. Newman-29OCT11-OEF
FL, USA
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Shit, now you have me thinking about purchasing a Colt M4LE.
ETA: Does Colt still incorporate the large fire control pins in their rifles? |
"Everybody gotta die sometime Red"
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"--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."
Heinlein NRA Life Member Glock Certified Armorer Certified AR15 Armorer Certified M1911 Armorer |
Ron,
I know you have certain bolt carrier groups you stick to now. My question is have you used Toolcraft's bcgs? What, if you remember, were the results with them. I'm figuring they're descent bcgs since toolcraft offers a lifetime guarantee on them and they got a contract to sell the military replacement bcgs. Thanks. |
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Originally Posted By int_19h:
Hi Ron, You've mentioned earlier that you guys have had a good experience with SIG rifles & carbines. I wonder if the ones that you have are original Swiss firearms (SG 550/551/552/553), or made in US by SIG USA (556/556xi/551A1)? View Quote We have both Swiss and US made variants in use. We have lost op rod springs (both US and Swiss) and a Swiss hammer spring. It took one of the armorers about an hour and half to put the Swiss full-auto lower back together. It's built like a...... Swiss watch V/R Ron |
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Hi, first of all thank you for the great information. My question is regarding the bolts you use: have you been able to continue to use them if there appears to be damage (cracks, lugs shearing off)? What is the usual standard operating procedure when you find such issues during cleaning, inspection etc?
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Thanks, Ron!
Another question along the same lines... do you have any full auto Mini-14s on the range (I think it was called AC-556 or something like that)? And if you do, how do they fare in terms of breakdowns and required maintenance schedule? |
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Would be interesting to see how an SR-15 performs. Ballistic Radio got their to 20,000 rounds and it was still good to go.
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Originally Posted By int_19h:
Thanks, Ron! Another question along the same lines... do you have any full auto Mini-14s on the range (I think it was called AC-556 or something like that)? And if you do, how do they fare in terms of breakdowns and required maintenance schedule? View Quote Yeah, do you ever get customers wanting the "A-Team" gun? |
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As others have said, this is a great thread. Invaluable info. Thanks much for posting. I hope to come out and visit next time I am in Las Vegas.
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Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: We have both Swiss and US made variants in use. We have lost op rod springs (both US and Swiss) and a Swiss hammer spring. It took one of the armorers about an hour and half to put the Swiss full-auto lower back together. It's built like a...... Swiss watch V/R Ron View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By HendersonDefense: Originally Posted By int_19h: Hi Ron, You've mentioned earlier that you guys have had a good experience with SIG rifles & carbines. I wonder if the ones that you have are original Swiss firearms (SG 550/551/552/553), or made in US by SIG USA (556/556xi/551A1)? We have both Swiss and US made variants in use. We have lost op rod springs (both US and Swiss) and a Swiss hammer spring. It took one of the armorers about an hour and half to put the Swiss full-auto lower back together. It's built like a...... Swiss watch V/R Ron Interesting. I have a SIG 556 SBR that's been great, all be it not shot anywhere near as much as your guns. They seem to get a bad rap, largely based on cosmetic complaints compared to the Swiss versions. In respect to longevity between issues, how would you compare them to AR's and AK's? |
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كافر AMERICAN INFIDEL كافر
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Why haven't the questions and answers here been made into a sticky?
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Maybe I missed it but I'm curious if you guys have had an itch to run any of the aftermarket triggers (full/semi). If so how are they holding up.
I would think there wouldn't be much of an issue, I'd just like to here from a good "beta testing ground" that you guys deliver. There's been a wealth of knowledge brought about by folks having fun and working at your facility. Keep the updates coming. |
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Cause it was Jimmy Two Squaws and Buffalo Face
MS, USA
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Wait... Your shop is the same place that old Dan Bilzerian posts on his IG?
And thanks for the write up! |
“When guns are outlawed, only the Government will have guns. The Government - and a few outlaws. If that happens, you can count me among the outlaws.” - Edward Abbey
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Im gonna be in vegas in 2 weeks. Cant wait to hit your range. Better entertainment return on my money than slots. :)
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Team Ranstad
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Planning on coming down and seeing you, Ron. In May. Keep that StG 44 cleaned and oiled!!
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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
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I know you're a busy man, but did you ever start that battle rifle thread? Very interested in that. Appreciate all of your info!
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Why is this thread not permanently tacked?
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Don't be so open-minded that your brains fall out.
General education should not be mere job training, but training of the mind to reason. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/classical-education/ |
Originally Posted By MRW:
You're lucky it's not in the TEAM forum. This thread is well worth paying a membership for! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By Will:
Why is this thread not permanently tacked? I suppose I am...never the less, it certainly would seem to merit a tack..... |
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I saw the Battlefield Vegas vehicle wrap on one of the cabs while I was there last week. I tried to make time and get by there. Next time! Definitely throwing some money your way when we head back this year, and I am bringing a group
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Bumped, because this is one of the most awesomest threads on Arfcom, and no one has replied for a few days. Should be pinned!
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Proud Supporter of Team Ranstad
Life Member, National Rifle Association |
How does the Melonite barrels hold up vs Chrome lined?
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Just got back from Battlefield. Must say I was super impressed with the whole staff and I had a blast shooting. They even took the time to bring me back to vault and handle and photo the collection. Talked a lot to the staff about their experience with different guns and what issues hey have/have had. Very informative.
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Bump for this amazing thread.
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Used to be a Larue hater.... then I got super precision.
I like M1As, commie gun, AR-15s, and Glocks. |
Originally Posted By FullAssault:
How does the Melonite barrels hold up vs Chrome lined? View Quote The melonite and nitrided barrels have been holding up just as well as the chrome-line barrels up to this point. Some of the melonite and nitrided barrels have tens of thousands of rounds through them with no issues. V/R Ron |
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