Hi Folks,

A forum member asked me if I would give some insight into how our M4's handle on the range because I've started threads on the AK's, pistols and .50 Barretts.

Here's a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can't bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance log on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. Tourists get to shoot everything from Type 99 Arisaka's, M1 Garand C and D's, MP-44's, G43's, M2HB's, 240's, 249's, MG42's, MG34's, M-14's, Luger's, Swedish K's, M203's, M79's and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day.

Here are some "facts" about OUR experience with M4's on the range.

- Some of our M4's have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced, gas tubes have been replaced, BCG's have been replaced but what sets it apart from the AK47's is that upper and lower receivers continue to function. AK's get to about the 100,000+ round count and rails on the receiver will start to crack. It's an easy fix with tig welding but they crack. We have yet to lose an upper or lower receiver from cracking.

- We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear.

- Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months

- Charging handles will "stretch" allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out

- Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5" full-auto's will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight

- We have yet to lose a single flash hider as compared to muzzle brakes on an AK-47. The muzzle brakes will literally split in half, looking a like bird with his beak open and go flying down range.

- We no longer use ANY piston conversions or factory pistons guns with the exception of the HK-416 "knock-off" TDI upper. I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. I was SO pissed because I spent all that money on the gun and it couldn't last 10,000 rounds. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. I don't know who makes or made the J&T barrels but I was so pissed that actually wasted the money on a MR556 and that's all I got from it. I purchased two of the 14.5" TDI knock-offs approximately 6-8 weeks ago and they have been on the line daily with ZERO issues. I only purchased them because people will come in specifically request the "416" and even they've never handled a weapon their entire lives, they KNOW that the top half isn't the "416 like in COD/MW".

- USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell's with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg'ers with new weapons. We don't have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines.

- Cleaning bolts and carriers is such a pain in the ass as compared to our AK's, G36's, SCAR's, ACR's and most other platforms. We throw them in the ultrasonic cleaner filled with Simple Green (EPA, OSHA and disposal concerns for us) and they never full remove the carbon from the bolts. The armorers spend so much time cleaning them and keeping all the parts together as compared to most other platforms.

- The only piston system to last on the range so far is the HK416 and TD415 system. Ever other systems we have tried has failed in one way or another. I won't say who's broke or how they broke so PLEASE don't ask. Each mfg has their own system for cleaning intervals and we may not follow their way. We have a way of cleaning and keeping records that suits our needs because of so much use.

- There is company that has an AR system that has some "parts don't need lubrication" and that failed before the end of the first day. I don't think some mfg's understand that people REALLY use their weapons and when you're rocking full-auto all day they NEED lubrication. My armorers and RSO's were laughing when it seized it up because we knew there was NO way it would last on our range.

- The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier.

These are just a few of the things that I can think of on the top of my head. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try to respond sooner than later depending on my schedule.

V/R
Ron

ps: I am sure there are some grammatical errors as I tend to read the words into a sentence that are not there. Some sort of dyslexia-type of issue that plagued me through eight years of college.

Let me just say Ron thank you for invaluable information you have given us.



Well I went and bought a 6920 it will be my first AR I haven't built. With all the positive words on the Colt I figured it's time to treat myself.

Thx again Ron

We have a full-auto SIG 716 that hasn't had any issues to date but it doesn't get used very often. I think the staff use it more often that customers to be honest. I have a "Battle Rifle" package (includes F/A M14, FAL, G3 and SIG 716) that should put some heavy use on the SIG. Currently, the FAL's (original FN and Imbel), G3 (PTR post samples) and M14's (M1A post samples) hold up very well and have almost ZERO issues. Hopefully the SIG will hold up but if not, I have a DPMS .308 that can take it's place.

V/R
Ron

Thanks, Ron.

I am looking pretty hard at the DPMS G2 series right now due to the weight savings.  -Looks like the SIG Patrol weighs a little over 9 lbs.

Did a thread ever get started on the durability of the battle rifles that you rent out?  



 

I don't think it did. I will start a thread about those weapons and the weapons that break the most.. shotguns

V/R
Ron

Please link to the thread(s) here. I've subscribed to all your other ones sofar

Interesting

did you go all CHF offerings from PSA or did you do the "premium" as well

any difference that is noticeable?

Uhh, in the first paragraph he says:



So it seems as if no "premium" barrels were used as "premium" barrels are neither nitride nor CHF.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-20-hammer-forged-madness-stripped-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html



 

 
Other than buffer springs, have you used anything else from DS Arms? If so, how have they held up?

Do you buy ammo direct from manufactures or through distributors?


Has there ever been problems getting ammo?

We've only used buffer springs, buffer tubes, F/A assemblies and dust cover assemblies.

V/R
Ron

We purchase mainly from the mfg but there are times where distributors will have a really good price and we purchase as much as we can. As for getting ammo, we don't have problems ever since purchasing from Magtech.

V/R
Ron

Here are some of the bolts that we've gone through this year in addition to other parts. No weapon weapon system is immune to the hazards of being on our firing line. In this pile of bolts are M1928A1 Thompson bolts, M60 bolts, M134 minigun bolts, plenty of AR15 bolts, HK G36 bolts, HK MP5 bolts, AK bolts and even a Kriss Vector bolt. One thing that is pretty interesting is how the M249 gas tubes just slowly erode away.

V/R
Ron

Gonna have to save that picture.

What do you do with all the broken parts/firearms that come off the line? Scrap?

By looking at that pic, it looks like they keep small parts in a bin for posterity.

And from the pistols thread:

Interesting, thanks.

is there any rhyme ore reason as to why it seems that there is roughly a 2 to 1 ratio of broken AR bolts compared to all the other type bolts combined?

Oh gosh I hope not.  Cadavers can be some of the most valuable data.  Cadavers with usage records and history like that - is some pretty rare gold.  I could see some university of Las Vegas Mechanical Engineering graduate student getting his Ph.D. from this data trove.  Especially since it's a large population set.  Cadavers from one guys gun here, and one police department gun there, don't mean much.  But from a large population set with known history and common maintenance like this - man that's a valuable data set.  The data Ron is posting here is incredibly rare, and valuable - this is info that folks just don't get to see.  

I'm surprised he isn't contacted by manufacturers and start-ups.  Heck, imagine the savings in ammo alone if you were to convince Ron to let you put product on the line during product development.  Shit, subsidize the customer $1/30 round magazine if they use your prototype 30 round magazine during their visit, would pay for everyone's Christmas bonus.  Doubt Ron would bite on many offers, but on some - why not.  Who wouldn't want to check out something like a prototype STG44 someone is trying to develop for the market?

Back to the photo: interesting that there are no AUG bolts in there.  I think Ron mentioned he did have one break once.  I'm guessing that has more to do with less rounds fired through AUG's though, than an inherent strength difference, but curious if Ron has any comments on that?

I'd wager it's their most rented/used platform.

Interested to know from Henderson for sure though.

This is what I'd think.

Have you ever tried any of these barrels? https://www.classicfirearms.com/arbarrel10-5m4stainlessm4bar1in7twistcm410517ss
"These barrels are made from 416 quality stainless steel and are rated at a barrel life of approximately 150,000 rounds. They are very top end."

That was my initial assumption as well but, I only asked to be sure.

Very interesting indeed. I thought they were among the most reliable (pump anyways).

Thanks again to the BLV crew and HD in particular.
As always, a plug:

https://www.groupon.com/biz/las-vegas/battlefield-las-vegas

Just read the reviews if you have any doubts...

Any RO from a 3-gun match with lots of newbies can verify lots of failures from operator error.  I would be interested to hear about parts breakage.

this is the best thread I've ever read on here

thank you

I PM'd Ron about monetizing this information, but I didn't hear back, so I'm assuming he's already doing just that.

I don't have the time to collect the information other than what I have passed on here the forum. I've got quite a few suggestions on how I should collect information and hiring people to do it but it's just one more thing to do a list that's already too long

V/R
Ron

What if we were to organize a research grant that would fund a position to collect the data, @ no cost to you?  The laboratory you have created could yield very valuable information, and in doing so, has the potential to lower some of your costs.

Imagine if an ammunition company wanted to market a new load that produced no stoppages in 1 million rounds - where could they run such a test?

I am VERY grateful for the useful information you have passed on to us already.  Data like this is very rare, and could NEVER be too much, perhaps never even enough.  

But, I just wanted to say that I feel very lucky that I ran across this thread.  Probably the best thread I have ever read!  (I also wanted to put it back near the top so others might read it....)

Bump

love the thread...now that you have the second site have you considered artillery of some sort

mortars at least

This is probably one of the top 2-3 no-shit threads I've ever read on-line.  Thanks to Henderson Defense for sharing this.  And thanks to them for hiring vets and giving them such a supportive workplace.

And here this thread sits buried on page 2 of the AR discussions.  Couldn't even find the AK thread after going back 4-5 pages.

Pretty sad state of affairs.  Some of the most important info ever posted on line and doesn't even rate a sticky.  Huh.  

Here is a guy offering up his experiences to the public, for free, and the response here was pretty mixed.  Some guys get it, and thanked him; others just had to nit-pick at him, others had to argue amongst themselves because they got butt-hurt over his findings.   Others are praying for this thread to slip into oblivion I suppose.  

Well, I guess we don't want to offend the big money vendors and their legions of fanbouys.

This thread and info ain't goin nowhere, they even have their own thread talking about this thread on "the other site" lol....


Most of us really do appreciate it.

Well, just read the whole thread and I love it.  Now have a reason to stop in Vegas.

I was wondering, Ron, if you have any more updates on the Colt rifle functionality, any issues since I think it has been about 3-4 months since you put them on the line?  Thanks!

I could not agree more.  

Ron,

Thank you for all the info! Looking forward to stopping in next time I'm in Vegas.

Fantastic thread, thanks Ron!

This is an excellent thread, thanks Ron.

Looking forward to the battle rifle/shotgun threads.

I apologize for the lack or responses gentleman. We should have entered our slow down at the beginning of November but it's been full steam and hasn't let off. It only slowed down just a bit but all the upgrading and work we planned on doing kept getting pushed back. We want to make sure the range and property looks good for SHOT Show as we have special guests arriving here on the property for the entirety of SHOT. It's 0400 here in Vegas and I'm suffering from a little insomnia so I figured I would knock this out.

That being said, we have our Colt rifles on the line daily and have yet to suffer from a broke bolt, disconnector, firing pin or anything. They have been functioning flawlessly since coming on the line. They've all been dressed in Magpul furniture with the SL hand guards but we had to add the Vertical Fore Grip soon after because the hand guards get hot QUICK and customers are not able to handle the weapons safely without them. Standard Colt M4 double-line hand guards do stand up better to the heat but I like the fact that the Magpul sets extend further down the barrel to prevent further chance of burning a hand from handling the weapon.

We also started using (can't remember if I mentioned it previously) the Quarter Circle 10 lowers with PSA 7.5 railed uppers in 9mm and they too run great. We are using the YHM 9mm buffers in them and along with a little modification to the disconnector, we are getting no trigger slap.

I promise I will get a shotgun thread going but I will give you a bit of a spoiler..... Benelli M4.

V/R
Ron

priceless.  ETA.  Ron, Thanks for taking care of vets and giving them a good job and a sense of community.  We lose a lot to suicide and you may have saved a life or two.  I hate vegas (born and raised there) but if I am ever back, I will swing by and finally send a magazine out of a BAR.

Ron
If this has been asked my apologies but on your suppressed ar's are you seeing any high failure rate for specific parts over un-suppressed?  Are your suppressed ar's using any kind of adjustable gas block or any other parts specific to the suppressed ar's?

Dude, these are your threads.  If you never post here again, we'll still be grateful for all the information you've provided us.

Get a materials science/mech engineering student and his adviser to do it for free, as a thesis project.

Everyone thinks it's so easy to run a biz and do extra stuff that doesn't add to the bottom line



Also, good luck getting any prof to drop their research or workload somewhere else for unfunded research that has virtually no chance for publication!