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[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BB:
the OP should contain what makes a correct AR15A4 M16A4 clone like the cool kid clone threads.

One could probably write a fair sized book on all the changes that have been made to the M16A4 as a weapon system over time, so you can understand that it's somewhat difficult to do a write up to the effect of: "This is what constitutes an M16A4 clone..."

I sure someone will be along shortly to either refute or amend some of this, as I'm far from what I would consider to be a subject matter expert on it all, though I'll give it a try...

In regards to the M16A4, I generally view the weapon as having 3 distinct eras: "Early A4s", "The War Years" (to include US Army & Marine Corps variants), & "Modern Era A4s".

Early 'A4s...(July '97 - Sep '99)

Officially, the M16A4 was adopted on July 29th, 1997, to replace the M16A2 as the standard-issue rifle for both the U.S Army & the US Marine Corps. While there were prototypes rifles (XM16A2E4s) in use on dates before July of '97, their features (grey anodizing or such) are not generally considered when discussing "Early A4" clones.

Early M16A4s are noted by their use of:

M16A2 barrel assemblies (having rifle feed ramped barrel extensions & fixed carry-handle height front sight bases)
Non-"M" or "M4" marked flat-top upper receivers (these early A4 upper receivers did NOT have M4 Feed ramps)
They used peel-washers to time their flash suppressors during most of this period.
Most were delivered to their respective services equipped with standard ("shiny-surfaced") A2 hand guards.
They were delivered with standard detachable carry handle rear sights.
They all used metal trap doors in their A2 stock end plates.
Their safety selectors, while having a "tick" to indicate the mode of operation, were only single-sided (no ambidextrous safeties were in use) & the "lever" itself extended from the edge of the safety rather than from the middle as currently issued ones do.
Their A2 pistol grips also tended to be of a "shinier" black material & the bottom forward "bump" was not as pronounced as currently issued ones (it incorporated a smoother transition to the tip).
While the Parkerizing of the various steel components (Components like the barrel, hand guard retainer cap, flash suppressor, forward assist, rear sights on the detachable carry handle, ect.) were more "grey" in color than they were "black", the upper & lower receivers after the adoption date were anodized to a Type II (black) hard-coat specification. (Someone more knowledgeable than me may know if there were ever actually any "M16A4"s with "grey" receivers, though I know of none that were officially labeled as such.)
Early A4s were known to have used either the US M7, or US M9 bayonet (with early straight tube-style grip).
Sling-use varied between: standard M1-style sling or black A2 "silent" sling, though by sometime @ early '98?, various 3-point slings started showing up in use.
As for side-sling swivels, I'm not certain if it was only a Colt thing or what, but seems like some rifles had them, and others didn't. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in on this.

(Starting @ Oct '98? - early '99?)
A4s started showing up either equipped with, or were modified by the addition of, a KAC M5 Rail Adapter System (RAS).
These early drop-in rails tended to be more "purple" than "black" in color.

(For a short time between Oct '99 to @ early 2003(ish?))
ARMS #59M SIR systems would be seen to be installed on select units' M16A4s.

What I like to call...
"The War Years"...doesn't have so much to do with any particular "war" per se, but is basically from @ 2000 - 2010(ish)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of:

True A4 barrel assemblies having "M4" feed ramped barrel extensions & "F"-marked (detachable carry handle height) front sight bases.
Flat top "M" or "M4" marked upper receivers incorporating "M4" feed ramps.
They used "crush" washers to time their flash suppressors.
Their A2 pistol grips, while still incorporating the earlier tapering of the bottom "bump", were made of a notably less-shiny material.
The steel components (barrel, HG end caps, triggers, ect.) began having more of a true "black" coloring due to changes made in the surface-treatment procedures.
These rifles began being delivered with KAC (or later, P&S Products) M5 rail adapter systems pre-installed from the factory.
They still incorporated metal (aluminum) trap door assembles in their A2 stocks, though the stock-body materials began being produced in a slightly more "grey" color, than the deeper "black" color of earlier models.
Sometime during the later part of this era (@ 2009ish?) ambidextrous safeties started showing up occasionally in use.
Detachable carry handles began to be phased out of deliveries (or packaged separately with the weapon) as A4s began to be shipped out with either no rear iron sights or had Matech back up rear iron sights equipped... Also, KAC 600m? sights were occasionally (though rarely) seen to be used rather than the Matechs during this time period. (May have been KAC 800m sights - my memory is somewhat hazy in this regard)
These rifles were often seen using Surefire M95 & M96-series weapon lights (M951/M952 or M961/M962 models both with & without the use of tape switches) The earliest ones had "wide" bodies (thicker) & "ribbed" head assemblies. Later ones used thinner bodies & had smooth head assemblies. These changes were made in an effort to lighten the accessory weight-wise, at the expense of heat dissipation.
Depending on the AO - Buttstock magazine pouches were often used during this time period. Most were seen to be black in color, though occasionally other color variants like olive drab or camo-patterned colors were used.
Sling use varied dramatically during this period, though most were seen to be of the 3-point type design, usually black in color, though like the stock pouches, were occasionally seen in other color variants. Near the latter part of this period (late 2006ish?), Blue Force Gear 2-point slings began to be seen occasionally in use on A4s.
Also, during this period, many of the standard 30rd magazines with field units were upgraded by the use of Magpul "anti-tilt" followers. Later (circa 2009), the military began procuring their own version of this follower for use in all their future magazine purchases.

US Army variants tended to use Aimpoint M68 red dot sights (Comp M2 earlier, or Comp M3.. maybe Comp M4 for very late models? - I'm not sure exactly when the Comp M4 & M4s models actually started making the rounds)
Us Army variants were also noted to still be using either US M7 or M9 bayonets.

Marine Corps variants usually were noted to be using a Trijicon scope (TA01NSN & TA31-F? models earlier, & TA31RCOA4 models later)
The original TA51 mounts on these optics were at first shipped with knobs facing toward the left side of the weapon. Later this was changed to have the knobs of the TA51 mount face toward the right side. (or was it the other way around?...I can't recall now.)
The Marines started using the OKC3S bayonet with this rifle from @ 2003 onward.

Modern Era M16A4s (Circa 2011(ish) to Present)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of the following:

Their A2 pistol grips have a distinctive "shelf-like" tapering of the bottom "bump" of the grip, as well as a squared-off taper to the top side profile of the grip. Furthermore, these grips tend to be lighter black in color, nearing closer to a "grey-scale" than "black" and have a flat, non-reflective surface finish.
They use one of 3 different types of safeties - The first being like the older format (War Years) safety except that it is reversible for use with South-Paws, the second is an ambidextrous safety that has a shortened lever on the non-dominant (non-thumb) side, and the 3rd is non-ambidextrous safety though the "lever" extends from the center of the safety rather than from the edge of the safety as those of the previous eras.
The trap doors of the A2 stock assemblies, while still using metal retaining latches, are occasionally found to have plastic door bodies rather than the metal (aluminum) bodies of previous eras. (Though I'm not sure if this is an actual change to the A4 specification, or rather some type of screw-up in the supply chain.)
These rifles are delivered with either Matech or KAC rear sights equipped, rather than with detachable carry handles.
They are often seen equipped with either black or coyote colored Blue Force Gear NSN Vickers 2-point slings & mounts, though M1 slings are occasionally seen in use for "parade" or "training" purposes/exercises.
These rifles are almost exclusively used with either the Trijicon TA31RCOA4 scope (for the US Marines), or the Aimpoint M68 (COMP M4 & M4S) red dot sights (for the US Army).
The TA51 mounts used with the Trijicon scopes were, or rather ...are, commonly replaced with LaRue Tactical quick release lever mounts.
As of this posting, I believe there are no longer any A4s that are still equipped with standard A2 hand guards. They should all be equipped with KAC M5 drop-in rails. (That I know of)
Right around this time frame (2010ish), LED lighting began to really make itself known in the weapon light industry, and as such - M16A4s began to be seen with Surefire M952V LED/Infrared convertible weapon lights, or Surefire M600v? LED "Scout" weapon lights in use. (Not sure of the actual Scout model number, though I believe it was in the 600-type series)

Because of the often rapid, constantly changing nature of the use & development of night vision accessories & laser sighting equipment, I have purposefully not touched upon their use with the M16A4 in this posting, and shall leave that to the AR15 community's more knowledgeable fellows to expound upon.

On a side note:
Throughout the last two eras (War Years & Modern), there have been a number of "Field Modifications" (some "approved" & others ...not-so-much) to the M16A4 weapon system. One such modification, has been the replacement of the Standard A2 stock assembly with a collapsible one such as the Lewis Machine & Tool Company (or also B5 Systems) SOPMOD Stock, or the Veltor "A5" stock assembly. While these "Mods" may have been approved for temporary "fielded" use, while so modified, these weapons are generally no longer considered to be classed among other "M16A4s", but rather among the status of "Special Weapons" or unofficially as "M16A5s". Because these weapons (as modified) no longer fit either the physical description or technical specifications of that of an M16A4, clones which are based around these modifications are generally not considered to be among M16A4 "clones".

Maybe later I will go back through this adding a few relevant pictures, but I think this is about the best I can come up with at present, and hopefully it will be enough to help you to sort things out...

Mike (FlDiveCop71)

ETA: This write up, while general in nature, primarily refers to completed M16A4 weapons' configurations as they were delivered to the US military @ the timeframes mentioned, and should not be construed as absolutes as to actual configurations that may be found in the field, either presently or at the aforementioned time periods. While the military supply system may continue to provide newly manufactured components built to outdated specifications, these items are primarily intended & supplied as "replacement" components for older weapons, rather than as revisionary components for newly issued M16A4s. Though some mention is made as to various options & accessories used in association with the M16A4 throughout these periods, please note that these comments are by no means the end-all / be-all of what was either available for use, or actually issued to the troops, but rather that which has been either known personally, or shown through reliable sources to have been used @ these periods. ...FDC71.

First time posting in the thread, so I have some pictures I took from an actual M16A4 here for those who want to engrave everything into the lower.

I am trying to achieve the glossy finish on the lower. Every anodized lower I've seen has a matte, gritty finish while the M16A4's lower is slick and shiny. I believe it's teflon, but I don't know how I would coat it. Also, does anyone know what font that FN uses on the lower? It looks like some type of sans serif font.

Don't have a M16A4 here but here's a FN M4A1 for font.
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I found this one online from Dog Fight Ink. I think he pulled all of his Colt and FN stencils, but you could obviously still use them.

Edit: No, he only deleted the Colt stencils. They're 14$ and he can make custom serial numbers, name, and city for your state requirements...

More from MCRD Parris Island Basic Warrior Training.

Finished my builds had to make a few changes and am just waiting on my Vickers standard issue slings now.
I was very surprised on the Green Mountain barrel / Trijicon ACOG setup on my Marine version build. Heard some people say the Green Mountain barrels really know how to do chrome lining and I think they are right. Guns not even broke in good and below is the ACOG zero shot at 100 meters. Sub MOA.

ACOG 100 by Stuart Boyer, on Flickr

Army Version with Matech BUIS and Aimpoint Pro with the caps changed to make it look like a M2
IMG_0302 by Stuart Boyer, on Flickr

Marine version with TA31RCO-A4 and KAC Marine marked BUIS
IMG_0289 by Stuart Boyer, on Flickr

IMG_0292 by Stuart Boyer, on Flickr

IMG_0297 by Stuart Boyer, on Flickr

I know it's been discussed, just interesting that there isn't a rear sight among them.

My boy during grass week.

When my son went to boot camp last year, they had carry handles on their rifles for the first phase of boot, then prior to Grass Week in phase 2 did they get their RCO. No mention of rear sights. When he was in the huts at the range and they were with their PMI's he asked about a BUIS. The Instructor looked at him and said, "Now how do I know that you have a AR at home?"

He replied, "I have 2 at home."



He said he really liked his PMI. His PMI is a 3 gunner and huge 2nd supporter and talked politics with my boy during breaks.

The boy said the range time was nice, it was a break from being yelled at..

Anyone aware of a source for proper barrels? Everything I find is either nitride, 1/9, or has an A2 FSB.

Barrels right now seem to be out everywhere. I'm trying to finish a M16A2 clone and I have everything but a barrel. Waiting on Brownell's to restock.

Dane Armory custom upper, 1:8, Wylde, Young BCG, free float handguard, WC TR-TTU-M2 trigger and NM 1/4 min carry handle.

Looks great from here!

Windham?

https://shop.windhamweaponry.com/products/ba20gvt-7#axzz59gDXzDqs

Sabre Defence NOS miitary contract M16A4 upper, Toolcraft 1b1b6 BCG, Palmetto state armory lower and carry handle

I don't want M4 feed ramps. I already look that one over. It's no big deal I've got one ordered on Brownells that's correct I can wait. My bank account certainly can LOL

Understood.

I don't really care about the ramps, but the FSB is keeping me from using that one.

This is the barrel I have on the rifle on the first post on page one. I ordered it from Bushmaster way back in 2006.    I just bought a Colt  AR15A4 and it has m4 ramps.

He's alive and so is that couch

I have some more rail covers coming, but I thought I’d throw the M5 and a few other things on the A2 for kicks.

This thing is already turning into a pig.

Thinking about an A4 clone, but what is the best route to take?

1) Get an FN Collector Series and call it good.
2) Get a Colt AR15A4 and upgrade it. (Which would be at or more than the FN.)
3) Source all parts individually and build it.

Interested in what is the best approach and why?

If I had the money then, I would have bought the FN. As it was, I had some parts, a lower, so I built mine.

Tifosi (you sound like you may be Italian - I grew up in Rome),
I have had a FN Military collector series (M4) and sold it recently. I don't like their finish; definitely more modern than what I like.
Not more modern than what indeed FN A4s have looked like; I am sure the finish matches what they are in reality - regarding the FN ones.

But I like Colt's finish. Colt looks like velvet. It's different.
So I would go Colt's way - the way they look matters to me.

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My contribution to the thread. All of the parts comprising the build are brand new/unfired. Some were very hard to find:

Black Creek Precision M16A4 lower (FN-style logo engrave added), FN rifle upper (no ramps), FN M16 BCG, FN cage code barrel, FN grip (shinier than Colt’s with slightly different markings next to screw hole), KAC M5 RAS, Colt LPK and buttstock (aluminum trapdoor swapped onto stock), Colt non-cage code charging handle (a bit more rounded edges), forged buffer tube, USGI .840” carry handle (for now, can’t afford the ACOG). I have the 2-pt. Vickers sling as well as the 3-pt. Specter sling and buttstock mag pouch. Can’t decide on which sling yet.

Sorry for the somewhat crappy pics. Rifle has oil/lint on it. I was pleased with the upper/lower fit - super tight and a good overall color/texture match. FN’s anodize is smooth and sort of shiny in appearance. The rifle is unfired (for now).

I did own a Colt AR15A4 and liked it very much; however, since the vast majority of A4s seem to be of FN manufacture I just had to build a clone.

(Yes, the rifle is unloaded... The hammer is down so selector cannot be turned to safe. That’s how it’s kept in the safe. That’s a mint FN 30-rd. empty mag inserted for the photos only.)

That looks great! Thanks for sharing the photos. Can I ask where you found the FN upper? It looks like the same forge marks as the Military Collector upper, but my understanding is that those come with M4 feed ramps. I’d love to find a source for a correct FN rifle upper. Thanks!

Wow!
Now that's doing it right! I had almost decided on buying a FN Collector Series but your build has me thinking of doing it piece by piece. Very cool.

I can’t believe it has taken me this long to build a 20”. I carried an A2 in the corps and thought about building it that way, but an A4 is just cool.

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Thank you. I believe I found the upper on GunBroker. It is indeed rare to find an FN upper lacking the ramps, but some good fortune played into it. But I hear that later A4s likely had the ramps. The “square forge” code is Brass Aluminum Forgings, Inc. and they forge uppers for many manufacturers, including Colt, FN, etc. However, I’ve yet to see an FN Military Collector bearing the “F” stamp (meaning FN) on its upper receiver. The forge codes vary, as I’ve seen some “splintered A” (Anchor/Harvey Aluminum) codes as well, again normal. Moreover, the FN M/C rifles I’ve examined bore the FN Herstal commercial stamp on their barrels and also had unmarked fire control parts. That’s not a knock on FN, as the TDP deal is the major contributing factor. The lower I used was a limited run by BCP and I was fortunate enough to get in on that also. Once I had the lower receiver, I just began combing the EE here and GunBroker. The guy who sold me my upper also had a new FN BCG still in the grease. Again, just lucky. This project took months to complete, but that’s the fun in it. I had to use some Colt parts, such as the buttstock and LPK, but that was a non-issue to me. I got the grip from SAW. The barrel still had the straw in the bore, also a GunBroker find.

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I applaud BCP for their release of the A4 lowers. They also offered A2 marked lowers when I signed on. It might be worth checking with them, if you’re interested, to see if they plan on releasing anymore in the future. The waiting period was something like 8-9 weeks, but it came already anodized and ready to assemble.

Thank you for your kind comments. Parts scrounging is part of the fun. New FN USGI parts aren’t the easiest to locate, but with time and patience it can be done. The FN Military Collector rifles are cool also, but they are expensive and, at least the ones I’ve seen, lack many GI issued components, but that’s not their fault. I owned a Colt AR15A4 for a brief period and liked it very much as well.

I hope to have an ACOG mounted on it by early fall. That addition would make it “complete.”

Thanks for the info. I’m definitely interested in the idea of slowly piecing together a correct rifle. A lot of the photos I’ve seen of the FN MC rifles on GB (including a complete upper receiver that sold recently) show both the F and the Brass Aluminum forge mark, so I think those may be from the first batch of them (people seem to be using stock photos for the sale listings). Many photos of FN military rifles from the early 2000s seem to show Cerro or Anchor/Harvey marks, so I’d like to find an FN rifle upper like that, but I’ll take whatever I can get. I’ve seen a few FN M4 uppers like that but would prefer a rifle upper.

Thanks for the tip about the grip from SAW. I’ve heard that lower parts will sometimes show up on the EE or GB, but it seems like I’ll have to get really lucky to catch one of those unless I search a couple times a day. I can live with some Colt internal parts it it comes down to it. It’ll be fun to hunt for all these component though.

That good about the “F” stamp. I’ve personally inspected 2 M/C A4s in the flesh and neither had the F stamp. I currently cannot find an example of one on GB either, and I’m looking at pics of the actual rifle, or carbine, for sale. I guess I just haven’t seen one. They’re still using commercial barrels, however. I almost bought one but could not deal with the price tag, plus I wanted to build my own. Nothing wrong with either the FN M/C or the Colt AR15A4 IMO.

I have a set of FN USGI fire control in mint condition. I’ve “neutered” the hammer, disconnector and selector. Can’t use the trigger without a more major modification, but I can live with the Colt AR15 trigger if I don’t get that done. That’s my next, and likely final, addition to the rifle. Then, it’s back to Colt SP1s... lol

Best of luck with your build! A4s are truly a piece of our military’s history.

Is an SR07 switch for my M951 too blasphemous? Can't decide if I want to go with a more correct ST07 tape switch bike tube'd to the VFG or more modern and useful (to me) SR07 on the top rail of the M5.

The SR07 is indeed “modern” but you should use what you like and works best for you. I actually carry an early M952 (Kit 01) with a Malkoff M61 bulb using bike inner tube on my KAC M4’s broomstick on my issued duty carbine, an M4A1 SOCOM F/A. Heavy, yes, but it works, plus I’m old school (on the job 23 years, 7 to go) Lol. I plan on using the same setup on my A4 clone, except maybe use a 951 instead. I prefer the early 952’s ARMS mount though.

I’d go with the older switch using inner tube to keep it more period correct. Nothing wrong with the SR07 though, especially I f that’s what you’re accustomed to and you’re not building a safe queen. However, the the older switch/inner tube setup is still plenty functional, as I carry that setup daily. Just my .02. Best of luck.

K

I took the first step - picked up an FNMI barrel. I was surprised that the FSB is F-marked, which I assume means it’s an actual A4 barrel assembly. The finish is worn on the tops of the FSB “ears,” probably from rubbing against something in storage, because it appears to be new otherwise. It’s missing the sling loop and front hand guard cap, unfortunately, so I may just replace those with Colt parts. I can probably live with a Colt flash suppressor too (who knows, they may even source them from the same place), or maybe the PSA part if it’s made by FN and close enough to MILSPEC. If I ever come across a new FN FSB with the sling loop and better finish, I could always swap them out. Not sure how difficult it is to rivet the sling loop in place (I’m guessing I can find a gunsmith who can do that).

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This is one of the components that I really want to be correct on my FN A4, so I’m glad I was able to get this one as the starting point for my build. It’s a 2003 barrel, which fits well into the production era for the one I was issued in 2005.

Congrats on that nice FNMI barrel. The triangular handguard cap that you need isn’t that difficult to find. There’s no mfr. stamp so find the cleanest one you can locate (i.e. no rust, smooth parked finish, etc.). I’d not care if it were Colt or FN. Same deal with flash hider. I used new Colt A2 hider from SAW since my whole build was new. Someone makes the flaring tool for the front sling rivet. Maybe check Brownells. The tool I’ve seen looks somewhat like the roll pin pusher used for the trigger guard IIRC. The rivet should (hopefully) be a dark grey color. Lots of folks say just use a hammer and maybe a roll pin punch; however, I’ve never gotten the results I’ve wanted doing it that way. That barrel is a really great start. Keep us posted as your build progresses and be patient. It’ll all come together in time.

Best.

K

Re: the handguard cap

There’s some real junk out there.  Make sure you get a triangular cap that is parkerized/phosphated and not blued.

I just seen this photo in a post elsewhere among other Paris Island pics. It seems that this Marine has an m16a4 with a collapsible stock. I wonder what the story behind this is? Did they actually issue any out in this configuration?

According to my son who graduated from Parris Island last September, is that some of the female and male recruits with shorter arms that could not properly hold the M16A4 with a A2 stock, was issued a rifle with a collapsible stock.

Army did make a conversion kit.  Seen many on A2 but on some A4 also.  Uses a H6 buffer (about the weight of a standard rifle buffer).  H6 designed for full auto firing rate.  Saw these on their way to Iraq couple years ago.


CD

Our armaments shop was doing some of those conversions in Iraq back in 2005, I believe just by ordering the collapsible stock components (not sure if they were using a different buffer). Our regiment had a plethora of M16s and a shortage of M4s. I remember that all our weapons went into reset at the end of the deployments, and all those rifles got converted back to standard stocks.

We need BCP to do another run of lowers!

To expound on this it looks like the NSN marked slings can only be purchased from blue force website directly.

Don’t get the contract sling confused with the commercial version:
VCAS-125-OA-(BK/CB)
$45

The NSN marked contract sling is denoted my model number:
VCAS-125-AA-(BK/CB)
$65

Can be purchased here:  Blue Force Direct Link

Didn't know this; this is cool to know, thanks!

Managed to snag a M591 at a surplus store in Oceanside for $35 bucks. Its used, but works.

I need to find a tape switch.

Good snag. I got mine off of Ebay, for not too much.

I want to clone this rifle....right down to dirt.



It belonged to RustedAce

The light might be the hardest part.  
I cloned the A4 I had, then I remembered how much I hated that config.  I prefer to keep my personal rifle slick as it is just a fun gun.