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Posted: 3/12/2006 1:41:36 PM EDT
[#1]
Depends on how hard the fan is blowing...
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Posted: 3/12/2006 1:53:48 PM EDT
[#2]
250 yard zero
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Posted: 3/12/2006 2:04:35 PM EDT
[#3]
Zero my irons and optics at 50yds.
WIZZO |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 2:09:19 PM EDT
[#4]
I zero mine at 100 yards. I have NM sights. Seems to work pretty good.
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Posted: 3/12/2006 2:14:44 PM EDT
[#5]
I zero my irons/optics at 100 yards. Not many 250 yards ranges around here. Just let the bullets hit an inch or two higher and I figure I'm roughly dead on at 250.
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Posted: 3/12/2006 2:32:52 PM EDT
[#6]
If you were zeroed at 100 yards, the bullet's impact and the point of aim would be the same at 100 yds. Obviously, they are not. The distance that you zero at is not the distance between the target and you when you zeroed. It's the distance at which point of impact and point of aim coincide. I can set a 600 yard zero at 100 yards, easy. |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 6:32:33 PM EDT
[#7]
Exactly.... spend some time with a ballistics program (or have a buddy do it for you). What SWO means is that if you know your bullet's path, you can accurately zero for a longer range at 100yds. ie: 200 yard zero might be POI = 1.5 inches high (just an example, don't ues it). The idea behind a "Battlefields" 50 yd zero is that your bullet is crossing line of aim at 50 yds on it's way up, and crossing at about 250yds (depends on load) in the way down. Total deviation is approx. 2 inches. This means that you'd hit anything 2inches below on it's way to 50 yds, 2 inches above between 50 and 250 where it's dead on again. This is acceptable for "man-sized" targets, obviously. . Just remember that it drops off quicly after 250. For what you're talking about, a 50 yd zero is best. On a 100 yd zero, the bullet's POI (point of impact) is touching POA (point of aim) at the top of the curve and drops from there. By 250 yds it will drop significantly. Disclaimer for those that fired up their ballistics program - All these figures are appoximate to make the point, lol. ETA: Couldn't resist. SMK 69 gr 3100fps Eye Height 1.5 inches. 50 yd zero - 1.5 low @ bullet exit, zero @ 50 yds, .5 in high @ 100yds, zero @ 150 yds, -2in @ 200 yds, -5in @250yds, -10in @300 yds 100 yd zero - 1.5 in low at exit, zero @ 100 yds, -3in @ 200yds, -11in @ 300yds. Your milage may vary !! |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 8:29:52 PM EDT
[#8]
Don't mean to be a stickler for details, but I believe HOB of AR irons are 2.6", not 1.5". WIZZO |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 8:39:54 PM EDT
[#9]
LOL... see the disclaimer.
I pulled the data from a sheet I had done for a different upper. He probably isn't handloading 69gr either. The only point was to show how the thinking goes. Same load, 2.6 sight height: 50yrd zero = -2.6in at exit, 0 @ 50yds, +2 @150yds, +1.5 @ 200yds, 0 @ 237yds, -4 @ 300. Kinda like I said for battlefield zero. +or - 2 in out to about 250. Works on "man-sized" misses a prairie dog, bottom end of the pack in a match. |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:23:46 PM EDT
[#10]
Thats why you got a 30 round mag on that baby, to adjust for POI..... LOL - Clint |
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Posted: 3/12/2006 9:41:05 PM EDT
[#11]
i usually set my 10.5 for 500yrds this works well for me because any closer in and i will usually just throw the gun at them and bend over naked
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Posted: 3/13/2006 5:43:16 AM EDT
[#12]
I zero my AR the way the Army has had me do it for the last 18 years. It has worked well for me. With the standard Army 25 meter zero, I can hit 300 meter qualification targets with no problem. 300 meter shots are ideal for where I live.
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Posted: 3/13/2006 5:47:02 AM EDT
[#13]
50 yard IBZ for all my red-dot scoped ARs, 100 yard zero for my Leupold Tactical and ACOG-TA01NSN scoped ARs.
Mike |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 6:26:03 AM EDT
[#14]
But it's a CRITICAL detail. Good eye Wizzo. |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 6:38:41 AM EDT
[#15]
Is this a sighting in question or a SHTF question?
For sighting, there is lots of stuff out there about the value of a battlefield zero that will keep you within an inch or two from 50--250 yards. I think the IBZ stuff is even tagged. I also think the National Match crowd has a tagged linked on their forum as well. For me, I sight all my scoped rifles at 100yrds. My back-up iron sights on my AR are set to be about an inch high at 50yrds which will keep me on a E3 type target from about 50-250 yrds. That keeps it all simple enough for me to understand and all I have to remember is some basic ballistics. BUT, if this is a SHTF question......one needs to really think about what ranges you'll be engaging at. 300 yards??? I doubt it. For some people, their AO might mean such longer ranges are possible. But, I think it is hard to justify engagements at that range and I am certain it would be hard to justify them in court after the S has stopped HTF. One must also consider target recognition and threat assesment and at what ranges those can accurately be done. Personally, I think I'd be much more likely to hide or evade from a threat at 300yards in a SHTF scenario. I will likely be alone, or worse yet, trying to protect my family without any real backkup. I will likely have no heavier firepower than a hunting rifle. If the the threat is a dedicated and declared enemy engaging in flanking maneuvers to attack my position, then I shall engage at the furthest ranges possible. And, if that is the case, I will have time to adjust my dope. But, I think that is an unlikely scenario. Much more likely is the random looter who won't even know I am there unless I engage. |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:14:26 AM EDT
[#16]
+1 50 YARDS |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:16:55 AM EDT
[#17]
87 meters is best!
Research has proven this! |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:17:39 AM EDT
[#18]
both iron sights and Compact ACOG at 100m. I think it's a good set up for my local scenario.
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:18:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Yep, I don't envision needing any 300 yard hits with an M4 in a "SHTF" scenario. The only way I would be taking shots that far is if I was taking out one of the survival forum geeks to steal his supplies.
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:22:56 AM EDT
[#20]
You could move in closer! Those nuts are probably sporting Shotguns for SHTF, and won't be able to hurt you until you're less than 50 feet away! 
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:40:28 AM EDT
[#21]
The question on its face is an interesting one and one that all should actually consider. I have. I fall back on - I undertand ballistic advantage, I am a good shooter, I will have a 7.62. I would definately want to stay at least 400 yrds out from trouble. I would prefer to engage from 500 to 900.
Inside of 400 it is too much of an even match - esp inside of 300. I would do everything I could to slide out of there un noticed unless the situation called for a response. My M4gy with a dot is zeroed at 50 ACOG at 100 7.62 at 300 Good luck |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:46:44 AM EDT
[#22]
M4 with ACOG donut of death zeroed at 50 yards, top of donut is 100 yards.
20" Rifle with scope is zeroed at 100 yards |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 8:01:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Don't bet on that. Ever read Mel Tappan's "Survival Guns"? He tells everybody that reads it that a .308 rifle and a good .45 are the best in a limited budget situtation. Besides, I am one of those "survival geeks", I have a lot more than a 12 ga. buckshot blaster. |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 8:18:46 AM EDT
[#24]
Who the hell do you think you're engaging at these distances and why? |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 11:40:10 AM EDT
[#25]
I think the answer to that depends on what sort of SHTF people are thinking about. For example, if you were down in N.O. during that giant charlie foxtrot, I highly doubt you would have had any need for a .308 set up for shots of a few hundred yards. What you're looking at there is the defensive use of firearms in a civil disturbance. However, if we're talking about the S totally HTF - you know, dudes with mohawks and crossbows zooming around on methane powered dune buggies - then it is understandable that some guys like Face_N_The_Crowd are also interested in an increased offensive capability. They want to be able to kill people and break shit. That sort of thing really has nothing to do with any of your notions of a legally justified, self-defense type shooting. Me, my 20" A2 is set up with the 300m zero I'm used to using. That's my first choice for anything likely to happen requiring a long arm. The carbine irons/EOTech are set for 50 yards, and I have an ACOG on a QD mount I can swap out with the EOTech. |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 11:48:40 AM EDT
[#26]
Its not 25 yards its METERS RIGHT??? SgtSAUER
LMT 14.5 arms 40 BUIS zero at 25 meters and 551 at 50yards Bushy A1 15HBAR irons at 50yards and ML2 at 50 yards Hunting rifle 3 inches high at 100 yards OLD SCHOOL |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 12:04:23 PM EDT
[#27]
You are correct, it is Meters, I was in a hurry and was in civilian mode (I'm on leave today). In response to those that criticize being prepared for a 300 meter engagement, just because the weapon is prepared to take a shot at 300 meters doesn't mean that is the range the shot will be taken. Obviously the situation will dictate which I thought was a no brainer. There is a lot of open farm land around me so distance is a consideration. If I lived in a MOUT environment, 300 meters obviously would be irrelevent and closer distances would rule the day. |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 12:16:01 PM EDT
[#28]
Weapons set to engage at max range... for ARs that is 300m plus, all other weapons accordingly. And if its closer, than its just easier to hit.
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Posted: 3/13/2006 6:27:39 PM EDT
[#29]
300M for the ar. The trajectory will be close enough to produce hits from 0-300 on a man sized target at that setting. Also, I won't be shooting at anyone farther than that with a .223
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Posted: 3/13/2006 6:47:21 PM EDT
[#30]
The original question still needs clarification. What sort of "SHTF" is it you're worried about?
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:21:03 PM EDT
[#31]
My 7.62X63 is set for 1.75 high at 100yd with a 165gr. and a 8X24X50.
My AR hits dead on at 100yd. with zero magnification. |
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:25:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Excellent question! 50 yds/200m probably works. See tire iron's post from a while back:
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Posted: 3/13/2006 7:54:58 PM EDT
[#33]
I am a 50 yard guy too. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 12:24:18 PM EDT
[#34]
There are two basic types of SHTF, ones with an eventual return to normalcy (i.e. riots or a natural disaster) and ones which are more aptly termed TEOTWAWKI (i.e. zombies, Red Dawn, Lucifer's Hammer, RAHOWA).
If you're expecting an eventual return to normalcy you might want to consider what the .gov might think of your shooting someone at 300+ yards. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 12:29:59 PM EDT
[#35]
In before Zak and his pie charts!
 I like the 50 meter zombie beater myself. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 12:33:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Step 1: Look out your bedroom window, notice the surroundings
Step 2: Pace off the distance to the mailbox Step 3: Sight in at the paced distance You'll be Minute Of Dead out to 200 yards. Anything past that should be an evasive event. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 1:53:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Actually, Tire Iron’s post proves just why you do need long range firepower for SHTF. The modern military thinking is to equip their soldiers with short ranged weapons. The reason this makes sense is that the Army has access to 25mm chainguns, mortars, CAS, etc. All of these are far more effective at long ranges than any rifle ever could be. The infantry is there to protect the heavy stuff from anything that gets close and to go where the heavy stuff can’t reach. (CQB) It’s suicide to try and fight a modern military in CQB. They have too much firepower and are going to be so well coordinated that they will cut you to ribbons. It doesn’t matter if you fight at short or long range a professional army will wipe you out. Fighting the military isn’t the kind of SHTF I’m worried about anyway. I’m worried about a complete breakdown of civil order where the landscape is ruled by impromptu groups. Individuals will either be dead or be absorbed into one of these groups fairly quickly. Range wins battles. And if I’m part of a group trying to defend a neighborhood from a group of looters I want to be able to hit them from 1,000 yards away. I don’t want to try and fight them at 100 yards or less. What I really don’t want is to be in a position of trying to defend a building when the other side has 1,000 yard rifles and my side is limited to short ranged weapons. This doesn’t mean ARs aren’t good SHTF weapons. An AR is accurate at fairly long ranges and it has the firepower to protect the long range rifles from anything that gets close. But I think an AR needs to be supplemented by a long range rifle. In a three man team having one AR carbine, one AR rifle, and one 30 cal. sniper setup would be a good mix. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 1:56:08 PM EDT
[#38]
I was recently in a "SHTF" during Katrina- and I wasn't in New Orleans either. I was staying with a family, who were kind enough to take me in, way out in the country in southern MS. A lot of people don't seem to realize that the MS gulf coast was completely annihilated, including most of Pass Christian, where I live.
The two times my weapon was actually drawn on a target were at ranges less than 25m. First time was a human, second was a feral dog. There was one other occurrence, turned out to be a false alarm, where someone thought they saw an intruder inside the fence and approaching the house just after dark one evening. Shots could have been taken at 150m+. 200+ yard shots could have been a possibility with some of the jackass rednecks running around trying to steal fuel and generators. Some of them had the nerve to carry weapons. I'm still amazed that some people seem to think they have the right to be safe from harm while committing a crime.  My AR-180B was zeroed at 50yrds. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 2:01:19 PM EDT
[#39]
I'm amazed you expect them to not carry weapons. 
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Posted: 3/14/2006 3:28:32 PM EDT
[#40]
It's not that I expected them to not carry weapons- I guess I was angry at them for the way they had to be thinking.
I grew up with a bunch of filth that have since moved on to bigger and more heinous crimes. It always makes me angry thinking about the way some of them actually got angry at the thought of getting caught and having a gun pulled on them. It was like they were incensed at the thought of being forcefully stopped. They didn't want to have to contemplate paying for their crime with their lives- they didn't seem to think that was “fair” and the very idea made them mad. A person that commits petty theft, sneaks in and steals something while you're away, might do it because he's lazy, greedy, or covetous i.e. he'll run away when confronted. A person that carries a weapon with them to do the same thing does so with a feeling that no one else has a right to interfere. I see it as a power thing. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 4:17:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Roger that. 1,000 inch snap-in. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 4:33:21 PM EDT
[#42]
so.... i'm a "SF geek", and i say to you BRING IT ON!.  5yds, 50yds, 500yds, it don't matter to me...    ar-jedi |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 4:45:33 PM EDT
[#43]
Some of you guys are scaring me. 300 yards?!
If your muzzle-blast doesn't set the threat's clothes on fire, it wasn't much of a threat. We're civilians. Don't get carried away. |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 4:48:06 PM EDT
[#44]
What are you going to do when you run out of your 5 rounds? |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 4:54:18 PM EDT
[#45]
my spotter doesn't let me play with the big mags on the kitchen counter. she's just like that about some things.  besides, i've been bouncing golfballs at 200yds with the RECCE. what makes you think i'll need more than 5 rounds of Mk262 to counter? ps: they are 15rnders. ar-jedi |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 4:55:14 PM EDT
[#46]
Reload and shoot you five more times? |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 4:56:22 PM EDT
[#47]
I have a few mags to loan a fellow SF geek 
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Posted: 3/14/2006 5:01:31 PM EDT
[#48]
I suspect that he, like me, will either reload or use a 30 rnd mag. the average SF member here is a FAR harder target than you think. I contribute what I can to ensure just that. Having gottne that out of the way, the Santose Zero (50m on the small aperture two clicks down from 300) works well for me from 1 to 300 meters. My single attempt at targets at 600 meters did not have very good results, maybe a 25% hit probability. Ops |
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Posted: 3/14/2006 5:29:17 PM EDT
[#49]
Ok, so let me get this straight...
We have a person who does not even understand the concept of SHTF despite the last year. AND he thinks he's just gonna waltz up to someone who lives prepared and take what he wants. Oh my... where's the popcorn! 
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Posted: 3/14/2006 5:31:35 PM EDT
[#50]
Ah, hahahahaha, the SF geeks have crawled out from their bunkers and are rallying for an interweb attack on the infidel.
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