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Posted: 10/2/2005 8:50:19 AM EDT
[#1]
Basically doing anything to start an argument. I would be considered a troll if I started a thread in which my starting post was... "Colt sucks. Discuss" I would know that doing that would start an uproar. Also trolling can be construed to mean following threads around and pissing in them. An example would be if I disliked LMT so much that everytime I saw an LMT post I would reply to it that "I hate LMT" or some other defamatory statement that adds nothing to the ongoing conversation. Do not feed the trolls. 
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Posted: 10/2/2005 8:56:19 AM EDT
[#2]
Who cares?
They are two different weapon systems, and people are free to choose whatever makes them happy. There are a handful of people I would pay attention to on this board, a larger group that I read with interest, and a bunch who can say what they want and its just text on a page. |
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Posted: 10/2/2005 8:57:50 AM EDT
[#3]
Arsenal, I don't have a problem with a real debate over which rifle is better. I think the problem was your delivery and the fact that you decided to start it in the AR forum. You acted like an ass and I was happy to see the AK sides reaction. As I stated in last nights thread, I am an AK guy myself, but you will get no support from me when you come on the AR side just to start shit.
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Posted: 10/2/2005 8:59:10 AM EDT
[#4]
no problem arse.
Chime in anytime, but before you do, ask yourself.....is this going to start a shitstorm? If yes...abort If not ...submit 
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Posted: 10/2/2005 9:39:32 AM EDT
[#5]
It didn't help you that most of your conclusions were complete crap.
 I don't see how someone who actually owns both would say what you said. Particularly about AR15 reliablility and cleaning times.
 I've seen AKs and ARs malfunction. I've seen some AKs that are okay in the accuracy department, but saying AKs are good and ARs are great isn't a fair comparison. Cleaning the AR (cleaning the barrel at least) is just as easy if not easier than the AK. Only the first M-16s had reliability issues. That was because of bad powder and the fact that they told soldiers they didn't to be cleaned. AKs are a bit more reliable than ARs, and ARs are a lot more accurate than AKs. However, that doesn't make the AK indestructable, as your posts would make it sound. ARs are a little less reliable, but that doesn't mean that they are worthless pieces of crap that fail to fire every other round. If you owned both, you wouldn't have made such a BS post. I own both and like both, but you're greatly exaggerating the weaknesses of the AR and the strengths of the AK. Stop getting your information second hand from the "former navy seals/special operations/commandos" at the gun shows and get some firsthand knowledge. Rant is officially over.  |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 6:44:30 AM EDT
[#6]
AKs are for poor people.
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Posted: 10/3/2005 6:54:56 AM EDT
[#7]
+1 |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 7:11:39 AM EDT
[#8]
I'm poor!!!  But I've still managed to get both an AK and an AR. I won't mention which one I like better.  No need to fuel the fire.
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Posted: 10/3/2005 1:16:10 PM EDT
[#9]
The most accurate statement. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 1:21:13 PM EDT
[#10]
A good AK will cost around the same as a lower end AR, about $600/$700. A cheaply made and inaccurate AK will cost you $400 or less but what's the fun in that? Or you can build a good AR15 for the price of a nice AK from Arsenal, AK-USA and so on. AKs are for people who like AKs. ARs are for people who like ARs. I happen to fall into both categories. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 1:25:01 PM EDT
[#11]
One of the smartest posts I've seen in these debates. You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 1:42:34 PM EDT
[#12]
Yeah ok .... What I got my sa-m7 for , I could got an ar 15 !!!  And I also have a armalite !!! 
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Posted: 10/3/2005 1:50:26 PM EDT
[#13]
An AR is more maintenence intensive but maintained Id say reliability is right up there with an AK.The AK has more pentetrating power in targets harder than people..walls clay,wood but other than that both will kill for sure.I likke comparing rifles in the same league.Like comparing the M16 to other 5.56 weapons.Lets compare the AK say to the M14 id give the edge to the 14 for accuracy,lethal range.both just as reliable AK edge on mag capacity.That being said I also own an AK...polytech under folder.To each his own including opinions.
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Posted: 10/3/2005 1:53:31 PM EDT
[#14]
The term "trolling" often gets used that way, especially around here, but originally it meant something a little different. A good "troll" was someone who managed to incite problems in a subversive way, rather than a direct way. A troll might be someone knowledgeable about a topic, who signs on under a fake newbie account and asks a really stupid newbie question with just the wrong wording, knowing that it will cause a flamewar between everyone else on the board. Or they post what sounds like an informative paragraph on some topic, but intentionally screw up a few keys facts in order to confuse those less knowledgeable and/or bait someone into arguing about it. The best trolls are clever, subtle artists. If a troll is dead obvious to everyone (even those less experienced in looking for it), then it really isn't a good troll. Just posting "I hate LMT" over and over is really more in the category of "flamebait" than "trolling". Almost all trolling of course amounts to flamebait, but the distinction is generally that flamebait is direct and obvious, whereas trolling involves at least some amount of subterfuge. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 2:12:13 PM EDT
[#15]
For sure, I've seen some Saiga's new for 180!!! |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 2:32:02 PM EDT
[#16]
That's quite a blanket statement. I'll bet I make more money than you, and I own four AK's and one M4gery. Wanna bet me?? |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 3:58:07 PM EDT
[#17]
AKs are made to be cheap. They are not made to be expensive, accuate or nice. They are made for 3rd worlders to be able to mass produce them on primitive equpiment. They are designed to need minimal maintaining by 3rd world idiots. They are the perfect firearm for the poor and ignorant and thus are used by the majority of poor and ignorant countries. I used to have an AK. That does not change the fact they were, and are, designed for poor, ignorant people in 3rd world countries. They have poor recoil characteristics, suppress horribly, have built in negatives to accuracy, have poor sights, are unergonomic, tend to rust easily and are generally not very well good firearms compared to the newer designs of firearms that assume the end user will be intelligent, trained, well equipped and disciplined.
AKs are for poor people. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 4:00:38 PM EDT
[#18]
I bet I could whoop your ass with one hand and can pick up 10X more pussy than you. What does that proove? That I have too much testosterone flowing and an insecurity complex so I need to brag and boast? Donald Trump can buy 4 Geo Metros... Geo Metros are still for poor people. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 4:22:27 PM EDT
[#19]
 $699 cheap 
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Posted: 10/3/2005 4:23:32 PM EDT
[#20]
Oh - and I guess that doesn't count as TROLLING ?
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Posted: 10/3/2005 4:24:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Pretty much right on.... |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 4:29:32 PM EDT
[#22]
I agree with Mauser Mark. I have a SLR-95 and it's nice, but I'am looking forward to owning a nice CAR AR...
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Posted: 10/3/2005 4:49:43 PM EDT
[#23]
Well said sir...... I own both, love both....arguing over which one is better...........who cares, enjoy what you have. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:28:28 PM EDT
[#24]
The AK is a "first generation" assault rifle. Same category as the original, the Stg44. As such, it has some design deficiencies that have been addressed in later designs, ergonomics being the biggest area. Since the comparison was directly to the AR15/M16, the AR has a degree of modularity that to my knowledge, is unequaled by just about any other design out there. That one characteristic makes everyone else play catchup.
Others have addressed most of the real and imaginary defects. No need to go into them again. On the plus side, you need to remember when the AK was designed, their history and what they intended to do. Don't forget a fundamental maxim of Russian arms design. Better is the enemy of good enough. In just about everything, the Russians made a conscious design to make it just good enough and then make a lot of them. We pay a lot for AKs in this country, but if you were sitting down to produce a rifle and you had to choose between the AK(AKM, the stamped version), M14, FAL, G3 or M16, the cheapest to manufacture by far would be the AK. For a poorer nation, you don't have the money for optics anyway, so you don't need a weapon with good optics mounts and long range accuracy. The buttstocks are robust and can take a beating and can be cheaply replaced. Laminated furniture is strong and doesn't warp, but the original purpose was economics. Laminates let you use what is essentially scrap wood, pieces that are too small to make a stock out of by itself. The controls and sights are simple. The rear sight follows the pattern of sights that have been used for probably 200 years in one form or another. Peep sights are relatively new. If you want cutting edge, sci-fi technology with modularity to allow task specialization, look to the AR. If you want simplicity, stick with the AK. If you like both, get both. I did. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:30:32 PM EDT
[#25]
I'd like to add one of those "poor people rifles" to my armory.
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:46:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Get two their "cheap" 
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:52:42 PM EDT
[#27]
AK's are pretty solid weapons.
The trigger pull is kind of funny, but I wouldn't hesitate to carry one in a SHTF situation. I would definitely take any AR over any AK, though. |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:53:46 PM EDT
[#28]
it was not a "debate"
 you initiated a direct, unfounded, and troll bashing on ARs and where are your pics of your
both are great guns, both have thier faults and strenghts and not all AKs are "for poor people" |
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Posted: 10/3/2005 5:56:26 PM EDT
[#29]
I pretty much agree with Devl. But I like both ( I like almost all guns) so I own both...but only 1 AK!
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Posted: 10/4/2005 6:20:09 AM EDT
[#30]
Arsenal =
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Posted: 10/4/2005 7:45:13 AM EDT
[#31]
I'm still waiting to see what his combat experience is since he said "an AR is a horrible combat weapon".
He came off a lot like a 12-year old whose parents were away for a few hours. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:05:25 AM EDT
[#32]
Man im sorry i started the fire but you people seem to be keeping it lit very well! Look the AR "the gun as it is not bad, its the gas system. H&k's m4 is flawless in everyway. The piston was the solution to every problem the AR was weak in. So i should have been more clear as to what i was saying was the main flaw.
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:07:56 AM EDT
[#33]
More Bullshit. Give me a break. The AR was designed specifically to cut out the gas piston. It works. The only reliability issues military ARs EVER had were in Vietnam, and that was due to the powder used, not the rifle design. I have carried ARs since 96, including a year in Iraq. Get your facts straight. ETA: HK can suck it. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:11:49 AM EDT
[#34]
if i owned a digital camera i could show the pics; whats the big deal ,two AR's like they are hard to obtain. If i did have a digital camera they would surely not be the first of the rifles i would boast about. Dealer samples are where its at :)
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:14:02 AM EDT
[#35]
ok, then why did the military put the revamp project into HK's lap?
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:19:45 AM EDT
[#36]
They didn't, they solicited these things called bids. HK is one of the bidders. Or maybe you should tell me, You seem to have all the answers, the wrong ones anyway. In fact, you are so smart my head hurts.
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:24:04 AM EDT
[#37]
yeah bids or whatever. Well even with HK"s system they still lost , SCAR won at least for the SF boys , its got an AK bolt system :)
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:28:54 AM EDT
[#38]
The military may say its open but only certain companys get the door opened for them even if the have a fine weapon , like RA
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:36:26 AM EDT
[#39]
This is the same guy who doesnt see the point in soft armor and thinks magazines are just fine for protection from pistol rounds. Check out his thread in the tactical gear forum.
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:41:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Gee, the SCAR is an FN design. And its and AK bolt system? Nice logic, twisting the argument. I never said that an AK is a bad rifle. But you said the AR is a bad rifle for above name reasons, which is BS. Let me help you though, since I pity small and feeble minded. The Galil has an "AK BOLT SYSTEM." The K2 uses parts of the AK design. The Sig 550 uses an AK style system. The FN FNC has AK features. That's some of the big names, though I have to add that many rifles including some of the above also incorporate AR features. Let's look at kickass HK, and their lame-ass XM8, which was a re-packaged G36 which used the AR18 (ever heard of one) system. It is the same system rifles like the SA80 use. Keep it coming, If you keep it up, you'll be as smart as me. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:42:16 AM EDT
[#41]
 Wow! Too much cool-aid. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:52:24 AM EDT
[#43]
It is sad though, this board is for the spreading of INFORMATION, not DIS-INFORMATION. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 8:56:19 AM EDT
[#44]
I own or have owned:
AKs FALs ARs Open Bolt SUbguns Sigs Glocks HKs Walthers Bersas Berettas 1911s Mini14s 10/22s Sigs 550s HKs G3s M1 Garands among others, and the only guns i have yet to expereince malfunctions with are my ARs, my Mini14 and my M1 in over in 1000s rounds. That being said let me clarify this is MY personal experience (not to be taken as a standard) and i do clean all my guns thoroughly after every range session. All of them have also the bast mags i could find and decent+ ammo thru their bores. Also guess what, i'm in the Stuck Case in AR chambers land. Just my two cents. ETA: This AK Vs AR debate is getting old, stick to what you're confortable with, this is from a guy who lives in one of those shitholes third world countries and one of those who'd pick an AR over ANYTHING else on a SHTF scenario. HUNTER. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 9:02:08 AM EDT
[#45]
If a .45 acp will go through a plate of iron about 1/4 inch thick, I dont think mags is going to do anything... maybe im wrong though What exactly makes the Gas pistion so desirable vs the normal gas system? I would think the piston would add a lot of weight when the normal system works very well as it is... any info anyone? |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 9:22:44 AM EDT
[#46]
The argument for a gas piston is that the carbon builds up on the pison, not the bolt. Simply put, that's about it. Some claim that makes for easier maintenance or more reliability, but I have yet to see evidence of either claim. |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 9:37:51 AM EDT
[#47]
Good evasion, .
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Posted: 10/4/2005 10:22:17 AM EDT
[#48]
Never mind.... |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 10:49:16 AM EDT
[#49]
The assault wheelbarrow system is where it is at!
Don't you guys recognize gunkid when you see him? |
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Posted: 10/4/2005 10:54:13 AM EDT
[#50]
 Oh ya'!
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