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Posted: 9/10/2005 4:13:54 PM EDT
I read that putting any 2-stage trigger in a combat/SHTF rifle is a bad idea. I cannot locate where I read it now. What is the reason?
 ROCK RIVER ARMS AR-15 NATIONAL MATCH 2-STAGE TRIGGER |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 4:21:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Don't know the answer to that, but law enforcement agencies sure buy a bunch of them. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 4:23:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Our policy says we can't screw with the trigger - much less put in a different one. I'm sure most are this way. We have to get a letter signed by God to make most changes - and then it's a maybe. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 4:26:40 PM EDT
[#3]
M1 Garands and M14s had 2-stage triggers  The weak link in the RRA trigger is the disconnector pin - I replace the pin. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 4:27:01 PM EDT
[#4]
2 stage triggers can definately be more fragile than your standard trigger. It's true, I've seen many of them fail in classes. However, it's also very true that a good many people who probably have no idea on how to put a match trigger in themselves, try themselves. Leading to a higher than normal failure rate. That being said, I have 5 match triggers in 5 of our guns and have not ever had a failure. This includes mu most used gun which has between 23,000 and 24,000 rounds through it. Gets used in competition every month, and has been though, I dont know, maybe a dozen classes. All without failure.
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Posted: 9/10/2005 4:29:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Higher than normal failure rate.
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Posted: 9/10/2005 4:32:11 PM EDT
[#6]
+1 on the higher than normal failure rate. Also a trigger with a lighter pull can accidentally pulled while your adrenaline is pumping. There is a reason the stock trigger pull is so heavy.
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Posted: 9/10/2005 5:16:31 PM EDT
[#7]
Done right a rra 2stage will work just fine. Why pull 14 pounds of sand when you can have 4.5 pounds of glass?
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Posted: 9/10/2005 5:22:50 PM EDT
[#8]
Leave light triggers to precision rifles. If your AR is a room clearer, just say no. If it's a "vote from the rooftops" AR, get one. snipers get stressed, but not so much they put their finger in the trigger guard and accidently squeeze off a round. running through a drug lords basement is a little different, finger might slip in towards the trigger if bumped wrong by a teamate, or seeing something you want to shoot then changing your mind cause you notice its just a kid in the way. None of my AR's have anything other than a standard trigger. My Remington 700 is a different story.
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Posted: 9/10/2005 5:25:19 PM EDT
[#9]
I don't agree with that. Your finger should be off the trigger unless you're pulling it. I have a lighter trigger on my 1911 and don't have any trouble. Its heavy so that idiots who have no finger discipline don't fire it. If its a personal weapon, not an issue weapon that might be reissued to an idiot, go for the ligt trigger if you have the finger discipline to handle it. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 5:28:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Ya I was just gonna say, if your using your weapon properly you wouldn't have that trigger happy finger on the trigger unless your intending on killing whatever is infront of you...therefore no matter how light the trigger is it shouldn't matter  .
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Posted: 9/10/2005 5:39:35 PM EDT
[#11]
Keep in mind the lighter the trigger the more of a chance it will go off if it is dropped. Finger control doesn't mean shit if you have butter fingers, or your sling comes off. I've seen plenty of M16's hit the deck.
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Posted: 9/10/2005 5:44:36 PM EDT
[#12]
Just say "Yes Pat" and forget about it
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Posted: 9/10/2005 5:48:53 PM EDT
[#13]
Yes with proper trigger finger discipline it shouldn't matter but shit happens. With the stock trigger there is less chance of shit happening.
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Posted: 9/10/2005 5:52:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Also less chance of you putting rounds where they belong. I am going to look into the CMC trigger. 3.5 lbs and supposedly pretty damn reliable. I consider 3.5 lbs to be about idea., with under three being light and over 4.5 being heavy. I have a 4# trigger on my last 1911, and my new one should have about a 4# pull. Thats a little on the heavy side. 3# would be nicer, but oh well. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 6:02:47 PM EDT
[#15]
The reason would be that a true combat AR type weapon doesn't need a two stage trigger. A mission specific weapon might, but your run of the mill A4/M4 doesn't need it.
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Posted: 9/10/2005 6:19:03 PM EDT
[#16]
I personally don't care if its one or two stage, but the gritty, three stage "single stage" stock trigger at 7#s that my rifle currently has just doesn't do it for me. The reset is so poor that hammers are almost impossible. I would settle for a relatively smooth 5# single stage, as long as it was reliable. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 6:19:16 PM EDT
[#17]
I have no problem putting all my shots in minute of dead with my stock trigger. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 6:44:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Have you ever tried doing a quick triple tap with a two stage trigger?
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Posted: 9/10/2005 7:19:47 PM EDT
[#19]
First Pat Rogers said in an article for SWAT magazine I beleive that 2 stage triggers dont hold up to hard field use and are prone to failure.Second at least in my state if you use a firearm for defense any trigger pull under 5 lbs is considered a hair trigger...not the thing you want the grand jury to hear when deciding to indight you or rule it self defense.Light triggers have no place on firearms meant for carry or defense,I dont want my field rifle more prone to go off with out my finger on the trigger and dont need it to break down at the wrong time.Competition is fine for serious use and carry I wouldnt use a trigger that light.Its bad enough with 1911s people having negligent discharges because of no real experience carrying one cocked and locked...add in a light trigger and its a train wreck waiting to happen.Even with experienced people I have to say light triggers below a certain point are just not what you want on a carry pistol or field rifle.
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Posted: 9/10/2005 7:29:58 PM EDT
[#20]
I can do it also, but I would like every advantage I can get. At the 300 yard line the trigger was really kicking my ass, and its hard for me to reset it properly without slapping while firing hammers or NSRs. With a cleaner 5.5# single stage even this wouldn't be a problem.
I don't know if you were talking to me, but yes I have, and it's easier than with the heavy stock piece. I still prefer a light single stage. Other than the KAC I don't know of any two stage trigger with a good rep.
I agree with you, however I think that point is 3-3.5#s, not 5-6. With triggers in this range I have never had a safety issue, and I can appreciate the difference while shooting them. Like I have said, in ARs right now the stock trigger is the only one of proven reliability, save perhaps for the KAC. The CMC looks like a contender and I want to try 2 or k rounds through it and see how it holds up. I'll have a stock trigger nearby just in case. I have those laying everywhere. My brother had a stock OAI trigger break on him in a class one time. Nothing is infallible. |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 7:38:41 PM EDT
[#21]
I have 3 k on my2 stage armalite nm it works fine..
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Posted: 9/10/2005 7:44:35 PM EDT
[#22]
I have about 3000 on my Jewell and about 500 on my RRA. Havent had a problem from either.
I do clean out my Jewell every couple of months tho |
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Posted: 9/10/2005 10:18:18 PM EDT
[#23]
Actually that is false with 2 stage trigger, even with a " NM" 2stage trigger .
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Posted: 9/11/2005 12:42:12 PM EDT
[#24]
The reason is because RRA triggers go single stage and if they do there is not way to do a field repair of the trigger.
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Posted: 9/11/2005 1:10:38 PM EDT
[#25]
And if they go single stage, they still work just fine, no need for field repair. I've seen a couple where the owners never even know they lost the second stage. RRA must have had a soft batch a couple years ago. EVERY RRA trigger I have seen that "wore out" into a single stage has an "R" stamped on the hammer. The newer hammers do not have this stamp, and I have never seen one of them wear out. All the DEA guns have the 2 stage triggers and seem to be doing just fine. I still replace the disconnector pin though 
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Posted: 9/11/2005 1:27:50 PM EDT
[#26]
bigbore, is this something that can be done after the fact, if an RRA ever does spaz out and lose the 2nd stage? I don't see mine going south anytime soon, but it'd be nice to know if it could be "brought back"! 
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Posted: 9/11/2005 1:50:10 PM EDT
[#27]
Even concerning the law, doesn't really matter what the trigger pull is. If my life is on the line, I'll take a day in court over regretting that a family member is dead any day of the week. I believe even with a 2.5# pull, you could be cleared in court. But thats just me.
I never had a pistol over 3#'s, and rifles, for me anyway, are more precision than the pistol necesitating at least half that shaved off. I prefer rifles measured in ounces not pounds. You can imagine my frustration when I got to the military and faced 6# pull on the M-16. I FREAKED cus I couldn't hit a thing. Then I qualified on the M-9, after going twice through the course, because all my first pulls were flyers. I've never been able to get used to the overly high pull weight. I am way less accurate, always pulling the first round, which to me, is much more dangerous especially in defensive actions. |
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Posted: 9/11/2005 1:52:18 PM EDT
[#28]
The pin I'm talking about has nothing to do with the losing the second stage. If this pin breaks, or comes out the trigger becomes non-functional. When I put the pin in a trigger, I have a jig that I test all the contact points to make sure the trigger is good to begin with.  |
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Posted: 9/11/2005 1:56:47 PM EDT
[#29]
I like your fixture. I could use one of those.
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Posted: 9/11/2005 2:00:00 PM EDT
[#30]
Ahh!
I understand. I guess I was trying to see if this is something RRA owners should think about upgrading... Thanks for the pic! |
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Posted: 9/11/2005 2:04:15 PM EDT
[#31]
It couldnt hurt, but I wouldnt worry about it. If you take a look at your trigger next time you have it out, make sure the factry pin is staked evenly. |
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Posted: 9/11/2005 3:28:28 PM EDT
[#32]
1000 rounds through a RRA 2 stage. Not much, but a hard life none the less. The gun gets tossed in container in a Mule, beat around the in the woods, went swimming in a creek with me one time and basically the crap gets beat out of it at least every weekend.
Never had a failure. Also, the response team for one of the SOs around here all use them and they've never had any trouble either. I'm thinking RRA just had a bad batch a while back. Happens to the best of us. |
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