I just got into AR15s last year.

I really like shooting.  With my aimpoint, shooting at 100 yards is cake.

I grew up shooting guns, not in competition, but in the back yard.

I love shooting.

But I get the general impression, that some of you, live, eat, and breath shooting.

I have read more then one posters comments, when discussing some of the more expensive AR15s, that the best AR is the standard iron sites, and save the rest of your money for ammo.

I have to assume that some of you, put thousands of rounds thru your guns every year.

I get the impression, that a lot of you, actually shoot so much, that you need to replace the barrels on your guns.

That is a lot of shooting.

So just how good do you get when you put 5,000 rounds through a rifle a year?

Feel free to speak confidently.

I look forward to reading your responses.

E (Qiii)

The President's Hundred Tab.
The Distinguished Rifleman's Badge.

Do a Google search.

For me, AR/rifle shooting is pretty much a recreational thing. Pistol shooting, to me, is a completely different animal all together. I have a concealed weapons permit and have been carrying close to five years now. At first, all I had was the minimum required training to obtain said permit and the motivation to go to the range quarterly (on average). I'd usually put less than a thousand rounds thru my pistol in any given year....

Fast forward to mid 2001. since then, I have attended three courses at the Sig Arms Academy.
Since then, my whole attitude towards the reposibilities AND consequences of having a permit have changed. I make a habit of going to the range as much as possible, and I find myself shooting less ammo at each session. Overall, I am a better shooter, but use less ammo maintaining a level of proficiency.

What I am getting at is this:
If one shoots for recreational (non competitive) purposes, one might put hundreds or thousands of rounds per year through their weapon and still not be proficient. Is that necessarily bad? No, cuz it's just fun. There is no penalty for not being "really good," so to speak. Now, if one shoots for competitive reasons OR because they rely on a firearm for protection/on the job use, they had better be proficient with it, irrespective of how many rounds per year they fire.
That's my personal take on this, others may agree, or disagree. That's ok.

Well, What I was getting at, if you put 5000 rounds a year through a gun, you'd probably have an incredible feel for that gun.

Say you were playing guitar, and you never really studied guitar, you just played all the time for years and years.

By default, you'd get pretty good with that guitar.  In fact, you'd probably have a few advantages over people who were formally trained, but who can play more complicated pieces then you.

They might not be the advatages that count...or maybe they are?

E (Qiii)

Oh, and I checked out those links on google.  Pretty interesting, ya gotta love the NRA's dedication to the shooting sport.  I think I'll learn more about the civilian marksmanship program.  Thanks for the info.

I would get a copy of the Army's rifle marksmanship manual, FM3-22.9 (FM23-9).

It will show you what a basic marksman should be able to do.

with or without red dot?  cuz it's almost impossible to miss at 100 yards with the red dot.  at least sitting at the bench.

I'll check out the manual though.

Still, I'd like to hear some braggin at the very list of your own shooting skills :)

Q,

I now fully understand what you are asking. To that, I say "proper practice prevents piss poor performance." If you shoot 5k rounds per year, but you have flawed technique(s) in your shooting, then you most likely will have poor marksmanship skills. As Delta pointed out, FM23-9 should illustrate fundamental expectations of a rifleman. The Army expects you to hit a man-sized target at 300 meters using iron sights. The Marine Corps, IIRC, expects this at 500 meters (I was not in the Marines, but as of the late 80's I believe this was doctrine...Jarheads, help me out on this one, please). So, again, it is not how much you have shot your rifle, it's how you go about shooting it.

edited to add:

Q,

I have demonstrated, on several occaisions to Uncle Sugar, that I can consistently hit a man-sized target at 300 meters using iron sights. That is sufficient enough for myself, as I only shoot AR's for fun.

I need new glasses myself, so 500 yards might be a reach for me, I dunno, but still, I have always been a good shot.

But when I say good shot, that's not compared to anyone; only that I don't miss the target, and I usually have a nice looking group.

I'll get a copy of this FM3-22.9 manual, but I doubt it's anything amazingly difficult to complete with high score.  Maybe that's the beer talking, but I don't really know anyone that can't shoot...well.  I know people who have never shot a gun before, but I don't count them.

Still, there is shooting well, and shooting like something out of a story book, and with all the shooting that takes place by the people on this site, I assume there are some realy amazing shooters, spefically with an AR.

E (qiii)

Let's see, AR 15 with service ammo shoots about 2 MOA at 100m and that's about 2 inches. At 500m that would be about 10 inches.

So even if everything else is perfect and you point of aim is center mass, you could be 10 inches off in either direction.

Now add a little wobble, even in the prone unsupported position and we're talking 20 inches off in either direction.

Lets not even talk about a little 10 mile an hour cross wind which... well you get the picture.

The ammo doesn't even reliably fragment over 200 yds from a carbine barrel.

I'd say you were a good shot if you could hit an 8 inch plate 5 times in 10 seconds firing offhand at 100yds.

Tell you the truth, I shoot fair at best.  Although not as well as in the service, I still shoot better than 90% of those I served with many of which saw more shit than I ever care to. I'm afraid my eyes are not what they were.

IMHO, knowing when to shoot and being willing to is more important than how well. Also being familiar with your firearms and able to use them without thinking is also more important, but then I'm not after a trophy or ribbon either just defense or food.

As for how often, by most peoples standards probably too often.  I get the urge all I have to do is step out on my porch and squeeze them off.

Pet peave, arrogant, key word not all or even most, bench shooters that think they are God's gift to firearms that have never used a weapon on anything but a sheet of paper. In the field, I have yet to find a decent bench when I need it.

Tj

First I'll say get off the bench.  Being at the bench isn't shooting - its ballistic masturbation (to borrow a phrase).

Practice more from a variety of postions and shoto and move stuff.

My goal is to get a perfect score with Giles Stock's carbine test - both day & night.  Marksmanship is the least of the issues - its speed that I need to work on.

And once I master it with my EO Tech - I'll then move on to master it with my irons.

I am a new AR shooter, and new to shooting in general i would say.  Ive shot rifles in the past, just for kicks at the time.  Since i got my first rifle last fall(yugo m48a)  I have improved a lot.  I am also wondering where should i set the bar, and how exactly to get there.  I have been doing a lot of shooting recently and am getting better.  I have been doing alot of paper shooting and also have been shooting steel targets(bout 5 inch diameter) and bowling pins at 125 yards from benchrest, prone, kneeling and standing(terrible at standing).   Yesterday i was shooting with a 'nam vet at the range and we were shooting a 16" steel target at 300 yards, with the mauser i could hit it with some consistancy, but i was having trouble with my AR, i dont think its sighted in perfectly and im still getting a feel for the sights.  The 'nam vet was hitting it pretty damn easily with his M1 garand.  I am doing all my shooting with open sights as i feel that is the most important thing.  I wont buy optics for my AR until i am proficient with the open sights, but what would most of you consider proficient with the opens and what goals should i shoot for(oops pun!)?

I enjoy shooting just like Qiii does and really want to get better!    

With my A2, using irons, at 100 meters, with XM193, off a bench(no rifle rest or sandbags) I can reliably get 4-5 inch groups.

I dont shoot nearly as much as I should either.

I'd say thats about average for most of us.

And there is your answer.  When you shoot 5-10K rounds a year you get very comfortable with your equipment.  You find out what works, what doesn't work, and the abilities and limitations of both yourself and your equipment.

With the irons, I am a consistently competent shooter; not CMP/NRA Highpower grade, but that isn't my game.  With a scope, I can shoot to the limits of the equipment; if the gun will put all of the rounds through one hole, that's where you'll find them.  With a reflex optic (Aimpoint), I'll put my abilities up against anyone, period.

Hopefully, if I can get this shotgun thing down, and improve my pistol shooting a little, I'll give the area 3-gun guys a run for there money.  We'll see.

Qiii,
(Intriguing handle, by the way)
Interesting question as well; seems like you are trying to provoke a discussion. I'll bite. To give you some background: I'm not an "operator" by any means, I'm not in Law enforcement (unless being a prosecutor counts), and I've never served in the military.
I bought my first AR in the late 70's. I couldn't hit with it, couldn't see thru the sights (!), and sold it. I studied long and hard before I bought my next gun, and came to the conclusion that bolt guns were the only way to go, and further that the 7mm mag was the perfect cartridge.
I still think I was right, in a way. However, I didn't reckon on the recoil, and developed a flinch that took forever to cure.
I've owned an AK, a SAR-8, a mini-30, the aformentioned AR-15, and my present AR (Colt MT6731) The 6731 and the SAR-8 are the only two I had capable of MOA groups.
The good Lord blessed me by allowing me to inherit enough land that I can shoot on w/o worrying about the neighbors. I've set myself up a little range and do some sort of practice at least once a week.
Ammo? The $3.99 stuff from Wally world. When I need or want something better, I shoot Federal Premiums. ( because when I WAS handloading for the 7 mag, I found that the premiums shot as well as the handloads.. I don't handload anymore, though its on my list of things to get back into) At 25 yards, the $3.99 stuff will give me five shots, all touching each other. At 100 yds, it opens up to about 4". This is with a scope! The premiums shoot about 1.5-2".
As you've probably realized, a lot of folks on this board are very much into their specialties. And although I probably wouldn't put it as emphatically as Forest, for example, he and the others are right; you shouldn't specialize if you want real proficiency. Another way to put this is that I don't think that great proficiency from the bench will help you in a CQB situation and vice versa. To put it still another way... your question is meaningless. (Not to flame you... hey, I'm having a good time replying!)
Finally, although I liked your analogy about the guitar, it doesn't hold up, at least for me. Because I AM that guy. I've had guitars since I had that first AR. Still can't play for shit.
But practice made me better with guns.
Rereading this, someone is going to think "Why doesn't he take some training"
Because it takes me a long time to get to the point that I'll take anyone's word for anything!I'm in a profession where I make daily decisions about credibility. There are undoubtedly some folks on this board I would take advise from, but anyone can talk shit.

How well do you shoot? A good question. A complex question. We need you to add the conditions under which you want the answer.

You've got the "bullseye shooter" and "administrative" answers pretty well covered above, and answers were starting to dwell more in the area of practical, defensive shooting issues, where "getting hits" very roughly translated means staying approximately in an 8" circle, often under challenging conditions. At this point the benchmarks get tough to measure.

The real interesting part of the answer is defining "challenging conditions". As others have said above, if you want to be a good defensive shooter you must "get off the bench". 5000 rounds a year at the bench may make you a great bullseye shooter, but probably not much else. If you want to be a competent shooter for self-defense you've got to pile on the stress. Shoot from all positions. Shoot from unusual disadvantaged positions. Shoot while moving. Shoot in all weather and in all light conditions. Shoot other weapons, not just your own. When you are feeling good/bad/sick/etc.

When you are getting hits in the dark on low contrast, backlighted targets when the weather is freezing fog (and you had to shitcan your beloved Aimpoint/Acog/etc. because the fog froze to it!), then you are probably as prepared as any average person can be. Unfortunately, getting the opportunity to do that kind of training is generally rare, expensive, or both.

I'm very lucky that there is an opportunity for the above type of practice right nearby. Compared to the many very accomplished defensive shooters I train with, and given the above conditions, then accuracy-wise my answer fair-to-middlin' inside 50M under any circumstances (say 80-100% hit rate, depending), a little above average out to 100M or precision shots inside 50 (say 60-70% hit rate, depending), and adequate out to 200M (80% in good conditions, 50% in difficult). Speed-wise I'm about average or a bit slow, say ~3 seconds from slung to first hit under optimum (IDPA or 3-Gun) conditions, to low double digits at night in crap weather with crap targets at 100-200M (well beyond IDPA or 3-Gun type stuff). This doesn't include time to move to cover or other defensive shooting tactics.

If you have a range in your area that has USPSA/IPSC matches, check it out. If you feel after watching a few stages that you're interested, grab one of the shooters and let em know you want to try it out. They will be more than happy to get you started. I can guarantee that your proficiency with firearms will double in a matter of months. I shot matches for three years before being injured in an accident, and I can attest that my skills improved a 100% after shooting these type matches. These shooters are very serious about safety and proper demeanor with firearms. They will not tolerate unsafe behavior or "rambo" wannabees! They will help you through the process for your first few matches until you feel comfortable with how things run. You will get to shoot under stress, learn to think on your feet, become a more proficient shooter, and best of all have fun and meet some great people.

I was one of 9 guys in my Army basic training company (200 soldiers) to qualify expert at Fort Sill Oklahoma.  I consider myself a fairly decent shot and have been hunting/shooting since I was 10 years old (Daisy Champion 99 bb gun).  At 300 meters a silhouette is smaller than the front sight post.  With a light cross wind every day during BRM I found myself hitting about 50% of my 300 meter shots.  Move that out to 500 meters and I would hate to think how impossible that would seem to get a greater than 50% hit/miss ratio.  Oh, I'm talking about TIMED shooting here (if that makes a difference).  I qualified at an electronic computerized range that had the targets pop up from behing burms for a specific amount of time and if you didn't take your shot in that time frame they would drop back down and it was a MISS.  Give me all the time in the world and I could probably do better.



I couldn't disagree more.  I shoot both three gun matches and bench rest with my AR.  Both teach you valuable skills.  Three gun type shooting will NOT teach you how to hit a target at 300+ meters consistently.

These are great posts.

I liked reading about each of your thoughts and ideas on shooting well.

I do tend to sit while shooting.  I've thought about doing the prone position, but I just haven't yet, I dunno why.

I've shot from the shoulder while standing, and burned off a few mags that way, but it was not impressive.  I definately need to practice that.

I saw something very cool that I hope to try some day.

On the History channel series, SNIPERS, one of the episodes, I think it was the law enforcement episode, showed a very cool idea.

They hooked up some helium baloons to a radio controlled car, and then had to shoot one color baloon, but not the other color bouncing right next to it.

I thought that would be a fairly decent shooting skill test.  I would fail right now, but one day I'd like to try that.

Thanks for posting!

E (Qiii)

I have natural point of aim. This has helped my shooting as well as the Marine Corps training I received. I shoot every other weekend, even if its raining, unless the wife asks me to stay home. I usually take my 12 yr old son with me as well.
I practice bench first at 50 yds then at 100yds. Then I go to hitting skeet disks offhand with the sling at 100yds. My range doesnt have anything longer.
I don't get my ruler out to measure the holes, as I dont PERSONALLY feel the need. My son times me and sets times for me to hit the targets. I just wish their were longer ranges where I am at.

Forest,

Could you give some details on Giles Stock's carbine test?  What are the gun handling skills and marksmanship requiremnts?  Are the different stages listed on the net somewhere?

Thanks!

USMC Expert
LEO  Master

I routinely shoot with my AR's, M1, M1A and M1 carbine. As well as 9mm, 40 s&w, 45acp, .38 spl. .357 mag and .45 Colt.  

I currently have to qualify with handguns twice a year, always at %100.

Most of the shooting I get to do is an action based "game" while running a clock. If I show improvement in my approach to courses of fire and don't hear the RO's yelling "cover!!" at me, I know I'm improving.
When I can hit 10 for 10 on a paper plate at 100 yards offhand, I feel good.
With a pistol, if I can get a 1.90 sec, 0 down failure drill from concealment, I feel great.
 

Qiii,

Find and go shoot a USPSA 3 gun match or any non-USPSA 3 gun match.  You can find a nearby club by going to www.USPSA.org.

This is dynamic, fast-paced shooting that's a ton of good clean fun. It will also give you an objective look into what good shooters can do with the rifle and the speed at which they can do it.

Good luck!

I've a couple rounds down range.

Set your goals to where you you have to work at it, but not one you can never make. When you make it set a higer goal and go for it. The aim point is fun but take it off and learn your rifle and hone your skills. Sight picture, breath control and trigger control. Learn how to read the wind.

It doesn't matter how much you practice.
What matters is the quality of how you practice.

I have dry fired on a average of 100 times for each round down range when I shot in compeitition. (two barrel changes on my service rifle, one barrel change on the long gun. That was in 5 years time)




Oh yah President's 100, Distinguished Badge #231, Member, Coach and NCOIC USAF HP Team 86-91.

I plan on posting his test on MD-AR15.com as soon as I have some time.  While at his class this summer he gave us permission to post some of his stuff as long as we give proper credit.

Both his test and his rules for dry-fire practice are great.

The course is 40 rounds, at ranges from 50 yards to 5 yards.  You always start at low ready - firing positions are either offhand or kneeling/squating (depending on the stage).  Each stage is timed (so you'll need a shot timer).  Some stages require COM shots, others require head shots - so you'll be using either the Gunsite or Randy Caine camo targets (for the 8" COM ring and the 4" box on the head).  There is a stage requiring a reload between controlled pairs, the close ones require failure drills (2 to body, 1 to head).

Tough course IMHO, that stresses practical accuracy vs time.  A test for practical self defense (I mean who can justify a 500M or 300M self defense shot).

The only 'skills' they can reenforce are breathing and trigger control.  I can do the SAME training while prone; and PRONE is a position I could possibly use in the real world.

Any of you carry a bench and seat with your rifle?   Neither do I.

BTW I found I shoot the best groups using Pat Roger's SBU prone positon anyway - better than a bench and better than the typical prone positions.

You did good, especially since that was on the 300m popup course.

If I remember right, there were about two or three individuals out of our entire basic training company qualify Expert, and two of them were prior service/Vietnam vets.


Chris

There was a MARSOC(?) carbine and pistol qualification by Pat Rogers that was referred to on another board that I felt was a great standard for short range marksmanship skill.

All of the pistol portion started out with a transition from a simulated malfunctioned carbine to the pistol.


Chris

 I would say 1" per hundred yards.
I have a 24" bull and a Dissipator. Much tighter with the 24". I was raised shooting and was expert in the Army at Benning in 1976. Could not shoot them crappy 45's worth a shit tho.

I think I found it!  Looks pretty good and tough too![:D]  BTW, it's in MS Word format.

[url]http://www.quanticoshootingclub.com/Pat%20Rogers%20MEU(SOC)%20Carbine%20and%20Pistol%20Qualification%20Course.doc[/url]

Yojimbo


Thanks for posting that Rogers test.  Very interesting.

Thanks.  I miss Fort Sill's 300m range.  I wish I could find a range around here that had pop ups like that.  Lots of fun and hard to shoot.  That "time" factor really screws with peoples minds.

Thanks for the link.  Does anyone know how FAST you have to be moving to be considered "Shooting on the move"?  I've seen some guys in three gun matches barely shuffling along in the "must be moving" parts of a match.  I think if you're not moving at least as fast as you would normally walk you're moving too slow

How good of a shot am I? Never as good as I'd like to be, but not as bad as I think sometimes.

I qualified as a "sharpshooter" in the Army (37/40 last time around), but that doesnt really tell me how good I am at anything but shooting at static paper targets, even if they are popups.

Since then, I've attended pistol classes and precision rifle classes, but there will forever be room for improvement. I did well in all of them, even hitting targets at 900m consistently in the precision class. I was proud of myself but I know there will never be enough time or money to train to maximum profiency.

I do know that I am trained to a level that far exceeds most civilians, some law enforcement and even some military, but I cant wait till the next shooting course.

It's well known that the average "domestic" armed engagement takes place at about 7 yards. I'm thinking that as a 'civilian', if you can hit CM at that distance you're cookin' with gas......... anything farther than that is called a "head start".

I judge by being able to hit a 3 foot acetylene tank at 400 yards. Thats all, No one inch groups for me. I do not use a bench.

lol Buey.  That's cool.

Anyone know what targets are used in the Pat Rogers test?

How about measurements for the "brain" and the measurements for the center of the "body"?

Brain - 4x4 inches?
Center Mass - ???

This summer I had the chance to shoot at the Winston P Wilson Match being as I am in the Army National Guard. It's an international rifle, handgun, & machine gun shoot. I am on the combat rifle team and shooting at 600 meters accurately was the highlight for me. Firing the M16A2 from the prone with a slight crosswind and getting good hits I now feel like a true rifleman. Every event was timed but some stress accuracy while others it was about speed. Find out how to get into a DCM shoot in your area and you'll be twice the shooter you are today.

So ALL bench shooters shoot just as accurately as any other bench shooter as long as their rifles are equal?  Sorry man, that just ain't so.  Of course, this all depends on your definition of a "bench shooter".  I've met guys that think you have to have the whole windage & elevation adjustment vice to call it "bench shooting".  

[img]http://i12.ebayimg.com/03/i/00/8d/94/a8_1.JPG[/img]

Me, if I'm sitting down at a station and have a ammo can to steady the gun against it's bench shooting.