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Posted: 8/7/2003 10:10:18 AM EDT
[#1]
Its BS. The stripped lower is a complete firearm in itself, and already manufactured. The guy at RRA is a dumbass, you should talk to his boss.
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Posted: 8/7/2003 10:22:46 AM EDT
[#2]
I doubt that RRA told him that. Sounds like he's telling a story. Of course, RRA is at Perry right now...wonder who's answering the phones...
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Posted: 8/7/2003 10:24:02 AM EDT
[#3]
I will tell the FFL to take-it up if interested. I did a little researching here at it seems that the law breaker is evading the fed excise tax. Does the "assembler", ie. me, have to pay the tax? Or is the tax only required of the Class I manufacturer?
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Posted: 8/7/2003 10:33:43 AM EDT
[#4]
Just order the lower through the FFL.
You can order the upper and have it shipped to your house. |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 10:38:41 AM EDT
[#5]
Isn't the excise tax included in the cost of the lower? The lower is the firearm.
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Posted: 8/7/2003 10:44:18 AM EDT
[#6]
RRA told me the same thing. I thought it might be BS, but better to be safe than sorry. It is interesting though, b/c since the upper is an accessory by law, who is to say that your FFL even has records of it being bought and sold? I'm not telling you to circumvent the law, I'm just saying there seems like there's some loopholes in this law that people might try and get around.
B9 P.S. Keep your nose clean, order them separately from diff. distributors. |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 10:48:56 AM EDT
[#7]
well I explained this to the FFL, which I really dont know that well. he still wussed out and said I dont want to get in trouble. then he wanted to charge $50 for the transfer. I think its time to find a diff fun shop!!!
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Posted: 8/7/2003 11:04:41 AM EDT
[#8]
I may be wrong, but my understanding is that if a FFL orders a [b]separate[/b] complete upper and lower [b]for the same person at the same time[/b], versus ordering the complete firearm (which includes the excise tax), the FFL could potentially be at risk of a charge of evading the excise tax.
The easy way to avoid this problem is to have the lower transferred through the FFL, and have the upper shipped direct to your house. You can purchase any AR part except the stripped lower receiver without a FFL transfer. How long have you known this FFL? If this was the first time you have done business with him, he may have suspected an ATF sting. I wouldn't put it past them to attempt such a thing. |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 11:08:44 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: I may be wrong, but my understanding is that if a FFL orders a [b]separate[/b] complete upper and lower [b]for the same person at the same time[/b], versus ordering the complete firearm (which includes the excise tax), the FFL could potentially be at risk of a charge of evading the excise tax. The easy way to avoid this problem is to have the lower transferred through the FFL, and have the upper shipped direct to your house. You can purchase any AR part except the stripped lower receiver without a FFL transfer. How long have you known this FFL? If this was the first time you have done business with him, he may have suspected an ATF sting. I wouldn't put it past them to attempt such a thing. I didn't think about that when I first posted. I bought a stripped lower at a gun show. The dealer didn't carry any parts, and wouldn't suggest a vender as he was concerned about getting hit as a manufacturer. |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 12:16:58 PM EDT
[#10]
I agree there is probably some problem buying both the complete upper & complete lower at the same time.
However, You are much better off buying them seperately anyway. Have the dealer get you the complete lower and get an upper from an online source and you should be able to save yourself some $. No sales tax & no dealer markup. |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 12:41:49 PM EDT
[#11]
There's no law prohibiting an individual from manufacturing a firearm. What's illegal is engaging in the [u]business[/u] of manufacturing firearms.
"It shall be unlawful... for any person - (A) except a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer, [red]to engage in the business[/red] of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms...." [url=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/44/sections/section_922.html]18 USC 922(a)[/url] Putting together a few rifles for yorsrelf isn't engaging in the business by any streach of the imagionation. The term "engaged in the business" means... as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured.... [url=http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/casecode/uscodes/18/parts/i/chapters/44/sections/section_921.html]18 USC 921(a)(21)(A)[/url]. The RRA guy is full of it. But I guess we've already established that. |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 2:31:04 PM EDT
[#12]
Excise Tax is only paid on complete firearms sold by 07 FFLs, it is 11% of the price they sell it for. The excise tax must also be paid if an 07 sells you all the parts to build a gun.
Every other class of FFL is not allowed to pay excise tax. A dealer cannot legally sell you all the parts to build a gun at one time, as he cannot pay the excise tax on it. [b]Keep in mind this is only if you buy the parts all at the same time.[/b] |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 2:32:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Don't just pick on RRA for that. I tried to order a BM lower from my dealer and a complete upper the same week, and BM called my dealer making sure it was not for the same customer. He said no, even though they were both for me, but they wanted to make sure we were clear on the excise tax thing too.
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Posted: 8/7/2003 3:30:00 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Don't just pick on RRA for that. I tried to order a BM lower from my dealer and a complete upper the same week, and BM called my dealer making sure it was not for the same customer. He said no, even though they were both for me, but they wanted to make sure we were clear on the excise tax thing too. You realize you just publicly admitted to conspiracy to violate federal tax laws right? |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 3:35:17 PM EDT
[#15]
SinistralRifleman is exactly correct. It is [b]totally legal[/b] for an [b]unlicensed person[/b] to assemble a whole gun on a receiver from legally-obtained parts without paying the excise tax.
It is NOT legal for a licensee that is NOT a manufacturer to assemble complete guns or to sell to a non-licensee a receiver and the parts to complete it, as this is seen as "evading the Excise Tax". This is the case because otherwise FFLs would order only complete lowers and complete uppers and assemble them themselves, bypassing the Excise Tax. As a licensee, this is not acceptable. A licensed manufacturer can do the assembly, but must pay the tax. -Troy |
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Posted: 8/7/2003 5:50:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Oh, and a complete lower is not considered a complete firearm for purposes of the 11% excise tax. For purposes of the tax, it is only a part (component).
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Posted: 8/8/2003 4:04:54 AM EDT
[#17]
OK, I think I got it. He just can't sell me all the parts in the same transaction without paying the excise tax and he doesn't have the lic. Regardless, I think I will just have all the rest of the goodies shipped home.
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