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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:02:16 AM EDT
[#1]
Sounds like a bad extractor or weak extractor spring. Do you have a another AR to compare with? If not I'd just spend $10-$15 and get a Wolff extra power extractor sprnt and a new extractor. Just my 2 cents![;)] |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:02:21 AM EDT
[#2]
it's probably more than just ammo, but you seem to be going down the list of low grade stuff. try a better brand. winchester .223 ain't too pricey.
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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:08:27 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: Sounds like a bad extractor or weak extractor spring. Do you have a another AR to compare with? If not I'd just spend $10-$15 and get a Wolff extra power extractor sprnt and a new extractor. Just my 2 cents![;)] I ordered a new extractor/spring last night just to give it a try. The extractor doesn't look worn to me though. I don't think a stronger spring would have made a difference with the S&B round I had to pound out with a cleaning rod, do you? |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:08:52 AM EDT
[#4]
I just bought a DPMS super light weight. The factory specifies that you use only US made commercial ammo. Maybe they mean what they say. Watch-Six
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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:09:48 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: it's probably more than just ammo, but you seem to be going down the list of low grade stuff. try a better brand. winchester .223 ain't too pricey. I'll go ahead and buy a few boxes of the winchester .223 from Wal-Mart and see if it makes a difference. This would piss me off if the ONLY ammo this rifle will work with is the top of the line stuff. |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:11:50 AM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: I just bought a DPMS super light weight. The factory specifies that you use only US made commercial ammo. Maybe they mean what they say. Watch-Six So you're thinking if I pay the extra $$ for US made, top of the line commercial ammo I shouldn't have any problems. That's great, but I think I'll be switching to a different AR15 if that's the case. I like to plink a lot and I'm NOT going to buy "the best" ammo for that. |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 9:31:08 AM EDT
[#7]
What kind of barell is it? Most DPMS chambers are .223, not 5.56..
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Posted: 6/30/2003 10:04:57 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: What kind of barell is it? Most DPMS chambers are .223, not 5.56.. 16" .936" OD. Lower reciever has .223/5.56 stamped into it. I figured this meant it can take both. |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 10:56:56 AM EDT
[#9]
[html]http://www.ar15.com/forums/announcement.html?b=3&f=118&id=172[/html]
This will help in with the discussion regarding the chambering for the DPMS Rifles. I have shot Reloads through mine I don't know much about the Silver Bear Ammo. I fire the Bulk stuff I can get from Cabelas and have never had a problem. |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 12:03:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: [html]http://www.ar15.com/forums/announcement.html?b=3&f=118&id=172[/html] This will help in with the discussion regarding the chambering for the DPMS Rifles. I have shot Reloads through mine I don't know much about the Silver Bear Ammo. I fire the Bulk stuff I can get from Cabelas and have never had a problem. Well, that says it's a 5.56 chamber. So I should be able to shoot .223 or 5.56 with no problems. Hmmmmm . . . I'll see what it does with JUST brass cased ammo and if it STILL fails to extract then I'll be calling DPMS. |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 12:15:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Make very very sure that the russian ammo you are using is not lacquer coated. Some russian brands are, and the lacquer can melt with sustained shooting, with the result being that the chamber will get gummed up and prevent the bolt from locking. When it is hot, there will appear to be no problem, but when the lacquer cools, it will be hard as glass, causing big problems. The manufacturer of my rifle specifically states damage caused by lacquer coated ammunition is not covered under warranty If this is the case the solution is A) spent a lot of time with solvent and a chamber brush until clear and B) Buy US made military ball or any other non-lacquer coated ammo. I am not sure about silver bear, but I kow the Russian "Wolf" brand is lacquer coated and definitely can cause issues. I shoot Military Lake City 5.56 M193 Ball myself, have not had a malfunction yet.
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Posted: 6/30/2003 12:20:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Make very very sure that the russian ammo you are using is not lacquer coated. Some russian brands are, and the lacquer can melt with sustained shooting, with the result being that the chamber will get gummed up and prevent the bolt from locking. When it is hot, there will appear to be no problem, but when the lacquer cools, it will be hard as glass, causing big problems. The manufacturer of my rifle specifically states damage caused by lacquer coated ammunition is not covered under warranty If this is the case the solution is A) spent a lot of time with solvent and a chamber brush until clear and B) Buy US made military ball or any other non-lacquer coated ammo. I am not sure about silver bear, but I kow the Russian "Wolf" brand is lacquer coated and definitely can cause issues. I shoot Military Lake City 5.56 M193 Ball myself, have not had a malfunction yet. Thanks. The Silver Bear is NOT lacquer coated. I'll make sure to let everyone know if the S&B or Maine ammo by itself causes any failures to extract. If they do, well, then it must be something with the rifle. |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 12:26:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Is your gun properly lubed? I've had ARs that were a problem unless run wet with CLP until broken in. Remove the upper and pull slowly back on the charging handle to feel for rough spots. Lube to reduce.
Key lube points are are the locking lugs, cam pin, carrier rails and on the gas rings. |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 12:39:19 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Is your gun properly lubed? I've had ARs that were a problem unless run wet with CLP until broken in. Remove the upper and pull slowly back on the charging handle to feel for rough spots. Lube to reduce. Key lube points are are the locking lugs, cam pin, carrier rails and on the gas rings. Yes, I keep the gun very clean and properly lubed. Heck, I keep it cleaner than my M16A1 that I was issued in basic and you know how clean they make you keep THOSE. I'm not sure how lubing is going to make a difference with brass sticking in the chamber unless the lube is in the chamber. Is there a type of lube someone can recommend that would make the chamber "slicker". |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 12:45:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Polish the chamber, they have very tight chambers .......also go to the industry section under DPMS and talk to Dustin or Sully.......they also have a post that quotes what ammo to use and the ammo some people have trouble with............
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Posted: 6/30/2003 12:54:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Polish the chamber, they have very tight chambers .......also go to the industry section under DPMS and talk to Dustin or Sully.......they also have a post that quotes what ammo to use and the ammo some people have trouble with............ Right! I've been thinking a good chamber polishing might be all it needs. I figured a new gun with less than 500 rounds shouldn't need it but, who knows. Does anyone know if the cost of a chamber polishing would be covered under the DPMS warrenty?? |
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Posted: 6/30/2003 1:42:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Talked with Dave at DPMS and he says their uppers are very tight to begin with for better accuracy. This will cause the rifle to be "picky" about what rounds it likes to eat. If the round is even a little out of spec it can cause failure to extract. If the chamber gets dirty the tight chamber can cause problems also. Not really sure if this is a desirable trait in a SHTF gun.
So, tell me, who's uppers are not a finicky about what ammo you can use? |
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Posted: 7/1/2003 1:50:52 AM EDT
[#18]
The only ammo issue I had with my DPMS was with Q3131, Q3131A works just fine. For whatever it is worth, I only fire steel cased ammo in weapons designed for it.
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Posted: 7/1/2003 2:35:59 AM EDT
[#19]
Is there a type of lube someone can recommend that would make the chamber "slicker". DON'T put lube in the chamber on purpose. It can cause all kinds of problems. Have the chamber polished instead. |
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Posted: 7/1/2003 5:18:59 AM EDT
[#20]
It is best to break in your DPMS with good ammo like Winchester Q3131A. Sellier & Bellot and Maine Cartridge??? You are really scraping the bottom of the barrel. I'll shoot Wolf before I shoot those two.
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Posted: 7/1/2003 5:25:40 AM EDT
[#21]
So then, what is the cheapest ammo you all think would work best in my DPMS? I want to stick with SS109 as I like the heavier weight for longer shots.
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Posted: 7/1/2003 2:06:45 PM EDT
[#22]
If the bolt comes back after firing leaving a round in the chamber, that would indicate an extractor problem.
If the bolt does not come back and the extractor has a firm grip on the fired case, the case could be stuck in the chamber, particularly if you could not draw it out with the charging handle. A stronger extractor/spring will not cure that. There must be thousands of rusting Wolf .223 cases at our range, and that speaks to the popularity Rooskie ammo with lacquered cases. Clean that chamber and see if that does the trick. I can't recommend an abrasive polish because that would cut through the chrome plating. Is the chamber rough enough to see tooling marks with a bore scope? Might be time to read the fine print on that warranty. |
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Posted: 7/1/2003 2:17:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Before you go modifying anything, or sending it in for warranty work, do this. Run some M193 ball ammo through it, that's what it was designed for. You can get 500 rounds of Lake City Ammunition Plant XM193 5.56mm ammo for $109 from www.ammoman.com, thats where I buy my ammo, never disappointed yet, never a single malfunction after 1500 rounds. Never fired anything other type of cartridge. If after you fire known good ammo through it, it still malfunctions, send it in. S&B, Wolf or Silver Bear may or may not work, but try it with the good stuff, which is not necessarily the high priced stuff, in the case of US surplus ammo.
Just me, but I would never put S&B or the russian stuff through my AR unless there was nothing else. |
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Posted: 7/1/2003 3:22:01 PM EDT
[#24]
my 2 cents is that your extractor spring is bad.I have a dpms 20" upper I had to replace the spring on after about 1000rnds,and just last weekend had to replace the spring in an upper I built from different parts,but a dpms bolt and carrier.I dont think they heat treat them right.I am happy with the ones from wolf gunsprings.
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Posted: 7/2/2003 5:48:56 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: my 2 cents is that your extractor spring is bad.I have a dpms 20" upper I had to replace the spring on after about 1000rnds,and just last weekend had to replace the spring in an upper I built from different parts,but a dpms bolt and carrier.I dont think they heat treat them right.I am happy with the ones from wolf gunsprings. How can it only be the extactor spring? As mentioned above, rounds have stuck in the chamber so tight I had to take a cleaning rod down the bore to knock it out. An extractor would BREAK if it could grip the case strong enough to pull out a round stuck that tight. |
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Posted: 7/2/2003 5:52:56 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Before you go modifying anything, or sending it in for warranty work, do this. Run some M193 ball ammo through it, that's what it was designed for. You can get 500 rounds of Lake City Ammunition Plant XM193 5.56mm ammo for $109 from www.ammoman.com, thats where I buy my ammo, never disappointed yet, never a single malfunction after 1500 rounds. Never fired anything other type of cartridge. If after you fire known good ammo through it, it still malfunctions, send it in. S&B, Wolf or Silver Bear may or may not work, but try it with the good stuff, which is not necessarily the high priced stuff, in the case of US surplus ammo. Just me, but I would never put S&B or the russian stuff through my AR unless there was nothing else. I purchased 80 rounds of the Winchester .223 from Wal Mart. If all 80 rounds fire with no malfunction then I'll consider it the ammo. I still might get the chamber polished enough to get it to work with more ammo types. NO GUN should be that freaking picky about it's ammo. Don't like the fact that to buy 1000 rounds of US SS109 it's will cost $100 more than Silver Bear. If the Russians can make the stuff on the other side of the world and ship it hear and STILL charge less then something is wrong with the way our factories are run. |
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Posted: 7/2/2003 5:55:27 AM EDT
[#27]
I have a DPMS M4(gery) and had a similar problem.
I bought a D ring for the extractor, and quit buying crap reloads. I recently shot about 200 rds of 3131A and went from a FTE on about every other round to 2 FTEs total, that were remedied by pulling the CH to the rear. Not quite AK-esque reliability, but a HUGE improvement. |
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Posted: 7/2/2003 5:55:52 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Clean that chamber and see if that does the trick. I can't recommend an abrasive polish because that would cut through the chrome plating. I always keep my chamber very clean. Every time I fire it I clean it. The chamber/bore in a DPMS Lo-Pro classic is not chromed. |
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Posted: 7/2/2003 6:11:09 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: I have a DPMS M4(gery) and had a similar problem. I bought a D ring for the extractor, and quit buying crap reloads. I recently shot about 200 rds of 3131A and went from a FTE on about every other round to 2 FTEs total, that were remedied by pulling the CH to the rear. Not quite AK-esque reliability, but a HUGE improvement. Yes, that is an improvement but 2 FTE in 200 rounds still sucks in my book. I can't count how many rounds I fired in the 7 years I was active duty Army and I NEVER had a FTE. I had a few FTF due to some worn out magazines but never a FTE. I'm getting the chamber polished to loosen up the tolerences just a tiny bit. That should fix the problem. Already purchased a D-Fender and new extractor (not here yet). |
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Posted: 7/2/2003 6:14:17 AM EDT
[#30]
PhotoGuy,
How ya doin'? Denny here at Denny's Guns. We have been where you are at more than a few times. Some chambers on ARs are quite tight for accuracy reasons and are ammo picky. Match chambers are real picky. At the shop we have complete sets of chamber guages for .308 and .223. No just go/no go guages. First thing we do is determine the exact chamber size. If it is on the tight side and the guy wants a rifle that will feed most ammo we just give it a good polish. This will generally enlarge the chamber a guage or two and the gun should generally function with most ammo with no discernable decrease in accuracy with the "good stuff". If he wants a blaster that will feed damn near every he can throw at it we hit it with a 5.56 chamber reamer. If you are having to push our rounds with a cleaning rod it is more than an extractor problem. We do carry the "D" rings in stock if ya need one or want to give it a try. I have them in all my 16's and my DPMS .308 just as a little extra umph in the extractor. If you want you can send your uppper to us and we can get her going for ya. Denny |
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Posted: 7/2/2003 7:06:01 AM EDT
[#31]
From what you are describing, I am thinking you have multiple issues:
1) Weak extractor 2) Tight non-chromed chamber (which will make extractor issues even worse) By the way, contrary to popular mythology, Wolf argues that lacquered steel cases are not the problem. They state it is the sealant they use at the neck that ends up mucking up the chamber and have acknowledged a change in ammo production as a result. Check your Silver Bear for the same as that won't help anything. Since the SAAMI spec stuff you tried worked more or less OK except for the occasional failure to extract (no serious sticking in the chamber), I am thinking the extractor might be a bit on the weak side. The SS109 is NATO pressure stuff and in a tight non-chromed chamber, I wouldn't be surprised to see the brass stick to the chamber on occasion. To test this theory, I'd try some SAAMI spec brass-cased Winchester value ammo. If you see a failure to extract but the cases come out easily, you are likely looking at at least a weak extractor. Upgrade the extractor and check to see if it works with SAAMI-spec ammo. If it works, then try again with NATO pressure ammo, if failures to extract and stuck cases reappear, you need to hit the chamber as well. |
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Posted: 7/2/2003 7:43:43 PM EDT
[#32]
By the way, contrary to popular mythology, Wolf argues that lacquered steel cases are not the problem. They state it is the sealant they use at the neck that ends up mucking up the chamber and have acknowledged a change in ammo production as a result. Check your Silver Bear for the same as that won't help anything. You know, the more I think about it the more I think it IS the RED sealant they use at the neck. There is a lot of it up there and that would explain why after a good chamber cleaning I can shoot about 30 rounds before I start having problems. Every time I've gone out shooting I've shot the Silver Bear FIRST and then had problems with other types of ammo. I even remember seeing the spent casings. There was NO RED SEALANT left on them after they have been fired. The only place it COULD be would be in the chamber. To test this theory I just spent an hour with finger nail polish remover and cleaned the sealant off 75 rounds. I tried copper solvent but it didn't faze the stuff. If I can shoot these with no problems that solves the problem. Now if I could only think of a way to quickly strip 1000 rounds of this ammo. B^) |
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