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Posted: 4/7/2023 2:56:10 PM EDT
[#1]
I still have it. I'll get some images up tonight or tomorrow.
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Posted: 4/7/2023 3:08:58 PM EDT
[#2]
That certainly sounds up there on the list.
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Posted: 4/7/2023 3:18:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Yeah. Sounds like you’ve got your answer.
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Posted: 4/7/2023 5:16:06 PM EDT
[#4]
I've seen some bad home builds, but I've never heard of anything near that bad , nor would I have expected that from a manufacturer. You should get ahold of BCA and let them know one of their employees is an idiot.
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Posted: 4/7/2023 5:44:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: A coworker brought his Bear Creek Arsenal AR10 in on Wednesday for me to "sort out". I was surprised when I opened the case and saw he had mounted a Pulsar Thermion 2 XP50 PRO 2-16x thermal optic ($4,999 retail) on his $600 rifle. Anyway, the bolt carrier group was bound up in the receiver extension. I was able to get the gun apart and found a few issues ... - Castle nut wasn't staked or even wrench tight - Forend / Rail wasn't indexed and the two fasteners were not even finger tight / no thread locker - Gas block fasteners were loose / no dimple / no thread locker - Bolt to barrel extension interface is funky - hard to retract BCG with CH - One leg of hammer spring was over and one leg was under trigger pin - No detent for take-down pin / spring was riding the groove - Upper / lower have enough play to be annoying - Carrier tilt had peened the RE enough that I have to replace it After addressing the above I fired a whopping 3 rounds of 143gr ELD-X through it, haha. His ammo is too expensive for me to test further, but at least the carrier cycles now. I do not usually have any hands-on experience with this "quality" of AR so it made me wonder who makes the worst? Holy fuck. You couldn't give me anything Bear Creek Arsenal made for free, let alone a complete rifle. Fuck that shit. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 5:49:43 PM EDT
[#6]
 INTACTO ARMS MID TAC EXTREME TORTURE TEST 720p |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 5:55:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've seen some bad home builds, but I've never heard of anything near that bad , nor would I have expected that from a manufacturer. You should get ahold of BCA and let them know one of their employees is an idiot. Someone please contact the company before a thread like this accidentally goes viral, cratering them without even giving them a chance to resolve. It would be like if your card accidentally declined during an online purchase. Then the vendor went out and got all of your creditors to blacklist you for life without notifying you. The way the internet echo chamber snowballs a small mistake into a catastrophe nowadays is insane. It’s never the leadership that creates poor QC procedures that suffers. It’s the overworked/under trained grunt that loses everything. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 6:01:29 PM EDT
[#8]
$600 and a co-worker's time to straighten it all out and make it work; that's a bargain!
OP, you are a gentleman. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 7:00:28 PM EDT
[#9]
The only factory new AR to fail immediately, out of the box, was an RRA.
Pre-RRA political fucktardery. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 8:13:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Welfare Bear is definitely among the top of the low tier, or low of the low, which ever is funnier/shittier. I've seen't about all your observations and more from them.
Poverty Pony was trash years ago, more recently they took the heat round and addressed most of the problems (from what customers have brought me anyway). ATI Omni plastic lowers and uppers are straight dumpster fire garbage. Anything from a Todd Bailey company is factory rejects. (ARAK parts dot com and blackthorne were the last ones of his I know of). |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 8:35:34 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Welfare Bear is definitely among the top of the low tier, or low of the low, which ever is funnier/shittier. I've seen't about all your observations and more from them. Poverty Pony was trash years ago, more recently they took the heat round and addressed most of the problems (from what customers have brought me anyway). ATI Omni plastic lowers and uppers are straight dumpster fire garbage. Anything from a Todd Bailey company is factory rejects. (ARAK parts dot com and blackthorne were the last ones of his I know of). The dude from battlefield vegas speaks highly of todd baileys 416 clones. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 9:36:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Isn't AR Stoner pretty bad? I have 2 of the bottom tier since I just wanted cheap hobby 7.62x39 uppers - BCA and Radical. They both work just fine with PSA lowers assembled by me with larue triggers.
The BCA took more tlc to get right - extractor replacement, adding spring insert, tighten gas block then replace altogether with adjustable block, tighten handguard screws. The RF needed handguard screws tightened. The extractor broke after 500 rds but it's a AIM surplus bcg and they replaced with their usual good cs. I would never recommend these for someone wanting a defensive rifle but they aren't bad if you have some AR knowledge beyond tinkerer and view them as a collection of inexpensive parts. |
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:01:39 PM EDT
[#13]
AR Stoner is BCA re-branded, per a higher up at BCA.
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Posted: 4/7/2023 10:06:41 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: AR Stoner is BCA re-branded, per a higher up at BCA. these days i think midway has branched out some on the stoner brand stuff, if you look close at the uppers you can tell which ones are bear creek and some are different.. the small components like buffer and lpk stuff has been pretty nice lately, it doesn't look like BCA |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 1:21:25 AM EDT
[#15]
DS Arms.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:47:57 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The dude from battlefield vegas speaks highly of todd baileys 416 clones. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Welfare Bear is definitely among the top of the low tier, or low of the low, which ever is funnier/shittier. I've seen't about all your observations and more from them. Poverty Pony was trash years ago, more recently they took the heat round and addressed most of the problems (from what customers have brought me anyway). ATI Omni plastic lowers and uppers are straight dumpster fire garbage. Anything from a Todd Bailey company is factory rejects. (ARAK parts dot com and blackthorne were the last ones of his I know of). The dude from battlefield vegas speaks highly of todd baileys 416 clones. I believe for that reason is that Toadie got lucky with 416 parts was he didn't make them. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:54:05 AM EDT
[#17]
Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne back in day. Are they still around or did they change their name again?
"Machineguns of the Special Forces" |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 6:04:38 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: DS Arms. Surprised to see this. I only have one DSArms product, a p/w 14.7”(ish) complete M4 upper. Shoots great, accurate enough, and totally reliable so far (only 500 - 600 rounds through it, but zero malfunctions of any kind). My only gripe is its length, definitely longer than the advertised 14.7” barrel. Did a thread on it a while back and seems the length is closer to about 15.1” or so. Worst AR product I’ve ever purchased is a 7” Radical Firearms 5.56 upper. I got it for a novelty flame throwing range toy (see my avatar w/my GF shooting it), but it may as well be the most expensive paper weight I’ve ever bought. I’ve tried everything I could to make it run, but it’s never made it through a complete 30 round magazine. Usually malfunctions somewhere between 1-5 shots. Pure garbage. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 8:52:08 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne back in day. Are they still around or did they change their name again? "Machineguns of the Special Forces" You are the winner! |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 10:30:52 AM EDT
[#20]
I forgot about radical. I had a customer that had a 458 socom from them, it would not cycle for more than 2 rounds no matter what was done or changed. Compared it to my RRA 458, bolt and barrel extension were different, shitty.
I've used lots of AR Stoner parts, all have been reliable and accurate. Surprising about being re-branded welfare bear. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 12:44:23 PM EDT
[#21]
Here she is…
  I also installed a SSA-E in the Owner’s Radical 458 SOCOM |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 12:50:38 PM EDT
[#22]
I felt like I had gone on a date with a fat trashy girl after working on the Bear Creek so I took a couple of my Colt & LMTs to the range this morning.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 1:15:04 PM EDT
[#23]
I have one stripped AR Stoner upper receiver and it's the only one I've owned that I just will not use. I've mocked it up and I'm sure it'll work, but there are pretty nasty machining marks on the carrier raceway and it sounds like someone intentionally scraping a vinyl record if you rack it.
A friend back home bought a rifle from some company in San Antonio that was totally out of spec, I'll ask him the "manufacturer". Trigger and hammer pins were not even and too large. It couldn't get through 5 rounds without a failure of some kind. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 3:52:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: DS Arms. Curious to hear your story. Have only used DS Arms spare parts in the past without issue. They also have some foreign contracts so they should know how to build good stuff |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:06:47 PM EDT
[#25]
Radical Firearms makes some of the worst ARs I have ever dealt with.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:14:22 PM EDT
[#26]
I’ve worked on the same guy’s Radical. I’d place it one step above the Bear Creek.
We are comparing rotten apples to rotten pears here. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:31:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: DS Arms. Details  |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:44:08 PM EDT
[#28]
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:45:05 PM EDT
[#29]
I have a Diamondback db10 308 that overall is surprisingly nice but the barrel was a complete POS. Couldn't get it to group anything better than minute of barn door. Put in a Ranier arms barrel and it's quite the nice shooter now.
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:50:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: DS Arms. Back that up, because you're the first person I've seen say it. I have one of their CL FSB barrels, and it's excellent, 1 MOA capable. Some other parts too, everything's in spec. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 5:54:18 PM EDT
[#31]
Core were pretty bad when they first came out.
BCI was also pretty shitty in the early years. I’ve used a few DSA uppers in the past and they were solid. One we abused on full auto a bit. I’ve used a number of different AR brands and never had any issues that arose that were not ammo or mag related. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 6:00:23 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/135686/FSB_Crack_2_jpg-2775367.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/135686/FSB_Crack_jpg-2775368.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/135686/Rough_edge_of_handguard_2_jpg-2775369.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/135686/Uneven_FSB_Pins_jpg-2775370.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Details https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/135686/FSB_Crack_jpg-2775368.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/135686/Rough_edge_of_handguard_2_jpg-2775369.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/135686/Uneven_FSB_Pins_jpg-2775370.JPG Damn. I've not seen that from DSArms. I've bought a lot of components from them, never a complete gun. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 6:09:38 PM EDT
[#34]
There's no bad AR's. Just some better then others
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Posted: 4/8/2023 6:55:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here she is… https://i.ibb.co/fXxpJFP/60825730-F0-E9-47-B9-81-F7-5-EA94-AB9-FD95.jpg https://i.ibb.co/HNmLLSD/A6-E74-C67-F186-497-C-A8-AB-849213-ED602-C.jpg I also installed a SSA-E in the Owner’s Radical 458 SOCOM Radical FA and Ghost FA/Grid Defense (Maybe just uppers/BCG's?) are the worst I've ever seen. To their credit PA offered to buy me out of my Ghost FA Complete Upper after the 2nd trip to GFA to attempt to properly install a gas block. Radical is local and known locally as garbage. |
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Posted: 4/8/2023 7:40:19 PM EDT
[#36]
Gee, I have a Radical upper in 300 BO and have to say it's run like a champ.
My first AR, 25+ years ago was an Olympic Arms. At the time OA got a lot of hate on this forum and mine was certainly less than perfect. Maybe one out of 1-200 rounds the gun would have a FTF/FTE. But it did shoot lights out. Have a Todd Bailey built HK94 clone in 10mm. Never been able to get the damn thing to fire more than 5-6 rounds in a row without failing. Tried a bunch of different ammo. I'd sell the damn thing, but I'm an honest person and couldn't in good conscience stick someone else with this gun. |
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Posted: 4/9/2023 3:43:27 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I felt like I had gone on a date with a fat trashy girl after working on the Bear Creek... You say that like it's a bad thing. You put in the work, got the performance you wanted, and hopefully had fun doing it. She'll be even more fun the next time 
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Posted: 4/9/2023 3:57:57 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Curious to hear your story. Have only used DS Arms spare parts in the past without issue. They also have some foreign contracts so they should know how to build good stuff Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: DS Arms. Curious to hear your story. Have only used DS Arms spare parts in the past without issue. They also have some foreign contracts so they should know how to build good stuff +1 |
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Posted: 4/9/2023 4:00:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Anything that is fucking junk. Lose my fucking mind when people build anything cuz it’s cheap. Phases me people cheap out on something that will literally kill them. Might as well just play with fucking dynamite and hold on to it
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Posted: 4/10/2023 8:57:18 AM EDT
[#40]
Hesse
Blackthorne Vulcan |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 10:41:08 AM EDT
[#41]
I got a Doublestar upper during COVID that was so badly misaligned the gun wouldn't feed reliably about half the time. A gunsmith took one look at at and said it was off-center. It was built on a Mueller upper and he went on a 10-minute rant about how bad Mueller uppers are.
The only other issue I've seen, and this has been with PSA and Aero Precision lowers: Sometimes the hold open barely engages the bolt lugs. This was true with every upper (including Colt) that I tried out on the lowers. Apparently the uppers rode a little high. This led to occasional feed issues with some mags. |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 11:14:43 AM EDT
[#42]
From what I’ve seen & in no particular order:
ATI BCA AR Stoner Doublestar & DB I’m sure there are some I’m missing. For the life of me, if someone is trying to get in on a budget I cannot understand why they wouldn’t just buy a M&P15. They’re cheap, they’re beyond well tested, they’re reliable, they’re durable, they’re accurate & they have a real lifetime warranty that is well serviced. PSA budget options are cool too, my experience has been better with the M&P. My first AR was an M&P15, never had a single issue with it, ever. Once I learned to build them, I sold them off to fund builds, but they were absolutely fantastic. Had them in 300 BLK & 5.56. |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 11:18:50 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For the life of me, if someone is trying to get in on a budget I cannot understand why they wouldn’t just buy a M&P15. In my case, I bought a Doublestar upper during COVID because they were one of the few vendors that even listed a pencil barrel upper, much less having one in stock. My PSA and Aero Precision lowers were primarily to go ahead and build onto spare uppers I'd had in the safe for who knows how long. |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 12:07:56 PM EDT
[#44]
Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne or what ever different names they have ran under definitely tops the list. After that it is Radical Firearms and Bear Creek Arsenal. And one distributer that I will never recommend is Davidson Defense/Delta Tactical/Omega Tactical and what other names they run under.
I had a Radical Firearms 10.5" 5.56 upper that shot groups at 50 yards that looked like a 12 gauge buckshot pattern at 25 yards. We have also seen RF barrel extensions that were loose or came off along with other issues. And with Bear Creek, the customers are the Quality Control department. You might get a good upper/rifle but then again you might get total junk. And after their debacle with the BCA 22LR uppers, I won't ever buy any BCA products. BCA sent out quite a few 22LR uppers where the extractor groove was cut to deep which caused case ruptures (not good for us left hand shooter). To make things worse, BCA sent out replacement upper with the same exact issues. Some guys on Rimfire Central got 2 or 3 replacement uppers with bad extractor grooves. It took guys like @Renaissancemann to keep on BCA before they would admit there was an issue. |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 12:12:43 PM EDT
[#45]
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Posted: 4/10/2023 12:22:38 PM EDT
[#46]
Radical
Vulcan Hesse AR Stoner, DPMS, BCA… easily a tier or two above those. |
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Posted: 4/10/2023 3:02:52 PM EDT
[#47]
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Posted: 4/10/2023 3:55:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Those ATI Omni hybrids...was asked if I wanted to try a few shots through one from a guy thankfully a few lanes over...I politely declined.
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Posted: 4/10/2023 4:46:02 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 4/10/2023 11:32:15 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Those ATI Omni hybrids...was asked if I wanted to try a few shots through one from a guy thankfully a few lanes over...I politely declined. I bought two for the hell of it. In 5.56 it broke the receiver extension off in less than 20 rounds. A 22lr version worked fine until I traded it off. I wouldn't trust them for shot Vulcan/Hesse/Blackthorne were bought out by MMC Armory. I think they ended the scourge of their products and only seem to sell name brand AR parts now. |
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