Hi Folks,

A forum member asked me if I would give some insight into how our M4's handle on the range because I've started threads on the AK's, pistols and .50 Barretts.

Here's a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can't bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance log on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. Tourists get to shoot everything from Type 99 Arisaka's, M1 Garand C and D's, MP-44's, G43's, M2HB's, 240's, 249's, MG42's, MG34's, M-14's, Luger's, Swedish K's, M203's, M79's and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day.

Here are some "facts" about OUR experience with M4's on the range.

- Some of our M4's have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced, gas tubes have been replaced, BCG's have been replaced but what sets it apart from the AK47's is that upper and lower receivers continue to function. AK's get to about the 100,000+ round count and rails on the receiver will start to crack. It's an easy fix with tig welding but they crack. We have yet to lose an upper or lower receiver from cracking.

- We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear.

- Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months

- Charging handles will "stretch" allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out

- Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5" full-auto's will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight

- We have yet to lose a single flash hider as compared to muzzle brakes on an AK-47. The muzzle brakes will literally split in half, looking a like bird with his beak open and go flying down range.

- We no longer use ANY piston conversions or factory pistons guns with the exception of the HK-416 "knock-off" TDI upper. I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. I was SO pissed because I spent all that money on the gun and it couldn't last 10,000 rounds. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. I don't know who makes or made the J&T barrels but I was so pissed that actually wasted the money on a MR556 and that's all I got from it. I purchased two of the 14.5" TDI knock-offs approximately 6-8 weeks ago and they have been on the line daily with ZERO issues. I only purchased them because people will come in specifically request the "416" and even they've never handled a weapon their entire lives, they KNOW that the top half isn't the "416 like in COD/MW".

- USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell's with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg'ers with new weapons. We don't have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines.

- Cleaning bolts and carriers is such a pain in the ass as compared to our AK's, G36's, SCAR's, ACR's and most other platforms. We throw them in the ultrasonic cleaner filled with Simple Green (EPA, OSHA and disposal concerns for us) and they never full remove the carbon from the bolts. The armorers spend so much time cleaning them and keeping all the parts together as compared to most other platforms.

- The only piston system to last on the range so far is the HK416 and TD415 system. Ever other systems we have tried has failed in one way or another. I won't say who's broke or how they broke so PLEASE don't ask. Each mfg has their own system for cleaning intervals and we may not follow their way. We have a way of cleaning and keeping records that suits our needs because of so much use.

- There is company that has an AR system that has some "parts don't need lubrication" and that failed before the end of the first day. I don't think some mfg's understand that people REALLY use their weapons and when you're rocking full-auto all day they NEED lubrication. My armorers and RSO's were laughing when it seized it up because we knew there was NO way it would last on our range.

- The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier.

These are just a few of the things that I can think of on the top of my head. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try to respond sooner than later depending on my schedule.

V/R
Ron

ps: I am sure there are some grammatical errors as I tend to read the words into a sentence that are not there. Some sort of dyslexia-type of issue that plagued me through eight years of college.

Yes because soooo many bolt guns are being built with nitride barrels nowadays.

Most bolt guns also are not chrome lined. So whats your point? He was making a comparison between chrome and nitride barrels.

Lol, wut?!

Damn.... they shut down

The govnah gas blocks continue to work in the shorties and that wouldn't run with a standard gas block.

V/R
Ron

If I had to to choose one over the other (because they aren't a cheap purchase) I would take the AUG. They just go and go.

V/R
Ron

Try Superlative, I like mine.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-11682%2B4294941259%3FNp%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D24%26Ns%3Dp_metric_sales_velocity%257C1%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1&userItemsPerPage=48&persistedItemsPerPage=0

SLR rifleworks is pretty hard to beat when it comes to adjustable gas blocks

Yeah, he posted something about it in his industry forum.  I had just started tweaking my setup when he closed up.

Thanks guys....Not to derail but the switch block style like the Govnah was appealing.  All the others I've seen are set screw style, I'm just surprised no makes a switch block style DI gas block similar to those used on a piston rifle.

God bless you, Ron Burgundy.

Have you tried chrome silica buffer springs?
They supposedly last 500k-750k cycles.  They can be found cheap as hell, too.

Noveske makes (made?) one, but I think it is .750 only.

Hey OP, just read a few pages of great info that you've posted.  

I wanted to ask, and it's probably been mentioned in the last 29 pages, but I figured I'd just ask anyway....

KNS pins on a m16 lower: Do you use them, are they needed in your experience?  Any wear to the hammer/trigger pin holes in the lower from extensive full auto use if your not using them?

Also, do you shoot 9mm out of the m16's?  Any issues you've come across, if so?

I talked to the guys about this a few weeks ago as I noticed more and more KNS pins on the weapons out on the line. They said that some of the older guns (4-5 years old) have worn pin holes and they needed the KNS pins to keep them running properly.

As for the 9mm M-16's, the armorers go through and make sure the BCG's are thoroughly ramped because if not, they will keep breaking hammer pins.

V/R
Ron

I am not 100% but I don't think we have used them. I will find out and get back to you.

V/R
Ron

Awesome, thank you Ron!

Do you have any FS2000s on the line and if so how have they done?

Was not a fan but RUNS like a champ!

V/R
Ron

Is there a sub gun or CZ version of this thread?  Looking for Scorpion Evo data.

I was out in Vegas last month and got to stop buy and shoot. Man, top notch place.  I shot the M249 and M240. Doug was my RO, class act and all business.  What kind of round counts do those guns see? Whats the maintenance schedule like?  I understand the 240 started out as an OOH, but where did the 249 come from?

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_48/480509_High-round-count-PCC-s-and-how-they-well-they-do-or-don-t-handle-long-term-use-.html

Good to know as I'm looking at one now. Thanks!

I'm not sure if this has been covered already but has there been any testimony to rather a billet charging handle will last longer than a regular GI style?

Are you wearing out the fire control pin holes on m16's across the line or are they mostly pistol caliber ones?

Ron,

I want to thank you for all the info about the endurance of multiple weapon systems.

I searched all 29 pages of this post to find info about SIG USA's 556's and the Swiss SG 550/551/552/553.

I am heavily invested in the SIG 556 line of pistols, carbines, and DMR'S, and since SIG is not producing them anymore, parts are very hard to get.  I want to use your data and knowledge to narrow down the list of parts I need to procure while some can still be had.  I won't wear out all my SIG's in my lifetime, but I want to keep them operational and pass them down to my children with spare parts to keep them running for years to come.

On page 12 of this post, on 10-3-15 you stated the following about the SIG 556's you were running:

"We've lost approximately two recoil/op rod springs per SIG in the last THREE years (as of 01 OCT 12). It's a great weapon in my opinion."

And in response to a question about "non wear" parts breaking like takedown/pivot pins, detents etc, you said:

"Actually, we have not. They continue to hold up to the abuse but we are surprised to be honest. They are either so tucked away inside or hard to "bang" against that we haven't had any issues to date. "

On page 17 of this post, on 3-27-16 you stated the following about the durability of the USA SIG's and their Swiss counterparts:

"We have both Swiss and US made variants in use. We have lost op rod springs (both US and Swiss) and a Swiss hammer spring. It took one of the armorers about an hour and half to put the Swiss full-auto lower back together. It's built like a...... Swiss watch"

The above information was GREAT, and let me know that the most important thing I could have for each gun is a 556 "parts kits" that includes a recoil spring, pin, and washer to install the recoil spring, a firing pin and firing pin spring, and a couple other small parts.  I also found a few hammer springs.

Continued. .

I also found the following information from the endurance trials of the SG 550/551 rifles at the following link: Bigger Hammer

2.- Weapon service life
2.1 Service life of individual components

The service life or individual components is classified into 4 groups as follows:

a) min. 10000 rounds for wearing parts of the bolt assembly
b) min. 15000 rounds barrel life
c) min. 15000 rounds for all other secondary components
d) min. 30000 rounds for major components.

2.2 Extended service life / Functional safety

- Experience indicates that depending on the grade of ammunition used, the barrel has to be changed after approx. 20000 up to 30000 rounds have been fired.
-15000 rounds for wearing parts of the bolt assembly are quite feasible: other small components will last for anything up to 30000 rounds.
-Major components such as trigger housing, bolt, receiver, plastic parts, the main components of the trigger action may readily be expected to withstand 40000 rounds.
-We have weapons at our plant which have major components still fully functional after firing 80000 up to 100000 rounds.

Continued. . .

The military data, while helpful, is also not very specific, since it is only broken down into bolt, barrel, "major" and "secondary" components.  

Your previously posted "real world" experience is what convinced me that I needed at least one "parts kit" for each gun, (recoil spring, firing pin & spring).  

Ron, I would like to know if you had to replace any other parts since last year on your SIG's, or what in the following list, if any, you would suggest getting as spares:

OP Rod, Gas Tube, Gas Valve
Bolt, Extractor, Extractor Pin, Extractor Spring
Bolt Carrier: (It seems like this may never wear out)
Any other lower receiver parts or springs.

For the above parts list, one part may be enough for three to five guns if the failure rate of that particular part is low.

Lastly, what round count are your SIG's up to now, and have you worn out any barrels yet?

Ron, thanks again for all your time and trouble posting all the info you do.

Another Question sir

With your background in seeing  you were to build your self a AR-15 for home defense, what kind of set up would you use? Any certain parts you would 100% say are needed for absolute reliability?

Thanks again!

So I guess no news is good news, in reference to the charging handle data points?

Any experience with the Beretta ARX-100?

Ron,  I'd also like to know if you run any Sig M400s at your range and your experience(s) with them.

Thanks for this incredible thread.  The knowledge shared by you & your company firing several lifetimes worth of rounds Vs average ArfCommer is amazing.

BIGGER_HAMMER

It's been covered somewhat and I realize their low usage but what brand 20in uppers and how are they running?


Thanks for all the great info Ron.

Hey Ron, I know you mentioned previously that parts such as detent springs/pins in the lower receiver have not had to be replaced.  Does that still hold true to this day?  Thanks!

Would you be willing to spitball what the difference is?  Like, do chrome-lined last around twice as long, or ten percent longer, or ...?

in.

In MY opinion.. I would say twice as long. That's comparing our Colt and Palmetto chrome-lined uppers to others that I don't know who is making them or their spec's because so many parts are contracted out.

V/R
Ron

Have you had any Beretta ARX-100s on the line? If so, how are they working?

You didn't answer how they compare reliability wise to the 20" AR15?

Interesting.  Thanks for the information, and for all the threads you've posted here.

I would still take the AUG over the 20" AR15 if money weren't an issue.

V/R
Ron

Love this thread, best part is how real usage blows up some oif the marketing nonsense people have fallen for

Curious on the ch data as well but I suspect the regular is just fine

The 20" AR15s must have the least % and amount of stoppages among all of your AR15 variants, yes?

No Scorpion Evo data.

I am going to give my armorers access to my account so they can update all the threads with the latest info on all other weapons that I promised to provide information on. I wish there were more hours in the day

V/R
Ron

Have you found that the full size 20" ARs are more reliable than the carbine varients and have less parts breakages / stoppages?

The question I really want to ask is how is business going in the wake of the mass-murder earlier this year? Any lashing out against you or any of the other ranges in town?

Is there anyway we could get pictures of some of these well worn firearms? I would love to see what the inside of a barrel/reciever/BCG etc looks like after 100k.

This would be awesome. My guess is they don't have to time to document this as they need to minimize the downtime.

While this sarcastic post is off topic, it is also based on an implied false fact.  Actually world class benchrest barrels in the top levels of competition are now being nitrided to extend barrel life.  Those single point cut rifling custom barrels lose their super sub MOA (well below .2 MOA) accuracy very quickly.  These single round loaded bolt gun barrels are being nitrided after break in to extend their usable life.  One should be careful with facts when using sarcasm.

Back to the point, thanks Ron for confirming that chrome lining is holding up about twice as long as nitride in your experience.  Your reluctance to wade into this thorny subject is also appreciated.  The typical back yard warrior or weekend range shooter with no FA or burst fire switch and not interested in bump fire or mag dumps will probably never see the extreme conditions your rifles are subjected to.  Such lighter use would probably never produce data to support a difference in barrel life.

It is reasonable to infer that those who do mag dumps and use bump fire semi auto stocks will benefit from CL barrels, while those placing more emphasis on accuracy might gravitate to more precisely rifled barrels with nitride hardening.

I'm just a guy with a bunch of ARs, but I can definitely tell a difference in accuracy between my melonite and CL barrels.  I have two CL, an FN/PSA HF and a BCM BFH, and a bunch of melonite barrels from PSA.  The melonite barrels produce tighter groups without question.

It is interesting to hear that the CL last ~twice as long though.