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Posted: 12/14/2018 11:50:59 PM EDT
guys, I am sorry to report, but I have been witness and victim to some fake Colt Uppers being sold online.
Never-mind the specifics, as I am addressing those with the sellers, but I want you to be aware. There seems to be a large number of fake "Colt" upper receivers being sold online. The ones I have seen are fake raised C keyhole forged upper receivers. If it were funny, we might say this was a case of forged forgeries. When I saw some of these in-person, in my hands it is very obvious, but online, it is very hard to discern the truth. It would appear that someone is attaching a fake forged mark for the C and for the keyhole. Perhaps this is a glued-on epoxy job. Forge marks, are generally quite wide. These are very narrow marking and under the magnifying glass it is obvious that parts of this glue-on job are falling apart. Very unfortunately, I am approaching the some of the sellers -- individuals and not businesses -- and there is a story of denial and retrenching. One seller told me that his source is adamant that the uppers are legit, and that he took them off of a full Colt rifle. When I asked to see a pic of the lower with serial numbers, I got the run-around. Come-on, if you are legit you will do everything to clear the matter up. When some one "pleads fifth amendment" you know there is shady business going on. When you look at these you can easily tell real from fake. Forge marks are thick by their very nature. The fake marks look like thinner stick-ons. REAL Attached File Attached File FAKE -- all Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Shit.
And not even a convincing scam. Which boards? Any here at Arf? |
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I'm in the market for a Colt m4 upper right now so thanks for sharing.
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Quoted:
Shit. And not even a convincing scam. Which boards? Any here at Arf? View Quote When you look at the "forge marks" (gives a whole new meaning the word), the C and the keyhole is very thin. Under magnification, I start to see drips of epoxy or welding. A true forging is rather thick. By its very nature, to forge is heavy duty with 10's of thousands of pounds per square inch of pressing. You will not get thin forgings. At first, I thought the "C" was wrong, but was a Cerro Forging, but then I noticed that the keyholes were not right either. The T marks are laser engraved, but not white. I think Colt had some that were not white, but most are. The M4 marking was different that other Colt uppers, but I have seen different fonts there, so not a concern by itself. |
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a few more pics and facts.
when have you seen a Colt upper that was fully stripped ? I do not recall ever seeing that. Always with F/A and dust cover. Maybe others have seen that config. Real Colt has a gray color moly dry lube inside the upper receiver. And, it is not uniform. It looks like your friend did it. Attached File Fake Colt is anodized black inside and out. Attached File and finally, whilst I mentioned that it is not fully evidence of a fake, it is a little unusual to see black engraved T-marks Attached File Real "C" forged Colt and fake. I like the anodizing better on the fake, but look how robust the C is in the real upper. Attached File Also, when is the last time you saw |
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Does Colt have uppers with a raised "C"? The two I have are engraved "C" and the other two are cage codes.
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Interesting, I saw a post on ee and found it odd the colt uppers they were selling didn’t have the white t marks. Never thought I’d see fake marked colt uppers lol.
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Quoted:
Does Colt have uppers with a raised "C"? The two I have are engraved "C" and the other two are cage codes. View Quote |
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Quoted:
guys, I am sorry to report, but I have been witness and victim to some fake Colt Uppers being sold online. Never-mind the specifics, as I am addressing those with the sellers, but I want you to be aware. There seems to be a large number of fake "Colt" upper receivers being sold online. The ones I have seen are fake raised C keyhole forged upper receivers. If it were funny, we might say this was a case of forged forgeries. When I saw some of these in-person, in my hands it is very obvious, but online, it is very hard to discern the truth. It would appear that someone is attaching a fake forged mark for the C and for the keyhole. Perhaps this is a glued-on epoxy job. Forge marks, are generally quite wide. These are very narrow marking and under the magnifying glass it is obvious that parts of this glue-on job are falling apart. Very unfortunately, I am approaching the some of the sellers -- individuals and not businesses -- and there is a story of denial and retrenching. One seller told me that his source is adamant that the uppers are legit, and that he took them off of a full Colt rifle. When I asked to see a pic of the lower with serial numbers, I got the run-around. Come-on, if you are legit you will do everything to clear the matter up. When some one "pleads fifth amendment" you know there is shady business going on. When you look at these you can easily tell real from fake. Forge marks are thick by their very nature. The fake marks look like thinner stick-ons. REAL https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2512__002__jpg-772578.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2510__002__JPG-772581.JPG FAKE -- all https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2511_JPG-772580.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2506__002__jpg-772582.JPG https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2503__002__jpg-772584.JPG View Quote |
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Quoted:
Real "C" forged Colt and fake. I like the anodizing better on the fake, but look how robust the C is in the real upper. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2533__2__JPG-773140.JPG View Quote I knew that Colt had "raised C" uppers, but didn't realize the how pronounced the C was. Comparing your pic to my upper, I do see some font differences. Looks like I got had In all fairness, the fake forgery I have held up to ~4k. But the cloner in me is going to swap this upper to a properly marked Colt. Anyone got a plug on Colt cage code marked uppers? |
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Quoted:
when have you seen a Colt upper that was fully stripped ? I do not recall ever seeing that. Always with F/A and dust cover. Maybe others have seen that config. View Quote I reached out to a Colt distributor, there are only four, who provided some thoughtful insight. He said Colt does not sell uppers without the FA and dust cover. His guess is that the uppers are Colt rejects that were sent back to the company who forged them and they subsequently sold them as rejects. |
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Quoted: I think barrelnuz is on to something. I reached out to a Colt distributor, there are only four, who provided some thoughtful insight. He said Colt does not sell uppers without the FA and dust cover. His guess is that the uppers are Colt rejects that were sent back to the company who forged them and they subsequently sold them as rejects. View Quote Most likely blems, although what I bought showed zero evidence. |
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Quoted:
Piston uppers as in a stripped 6940-P upper?? That's what I need. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted:
Gundeals.com was selling them stripped last year. Both DI and piston, dirt cheap. Most likely blems, although what I bought showed zero evidence. I shoulda stacked deep. |
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Quoted: I think barrelnuz is on to something. I reached out to a Colt distributor, there are only four, who provided some thoughtful insight. He said Colt does not sell uppers without the FA and dust cover. His guess is that the uppers are Colt rejects that were sent back to the company who forged them and they subsequently sold them as rejects. View Quote There are 2 or 3 different font styles of raised C keyhole uppers that have been used over the years. |
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Quoted:
a few more pics and facts. when have you seen a Colt upper that was fully stripped ? I do not recall ever seeing that. Always with F/A and dust cover. Maybe others have seen that config. Real Colt has a gray color moly dry lube inside the upper receiver. And, it is not uniform. It looks like your friend did it. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2526__002__jpg-773121.JPG Fake Colt is anodized black inside and out. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2527__002__jpg-773123.JPG and finally, whilst I mentioned that it is not fully evidence of a fake, it is a little unusual to see black engraved T-marks https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2532__002__jpg-773126.JPG Real "C" forged Colt and fake. I like the anodizing better on the fake, but look how robust the C is in the real upper. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2533__2__JPG-773140.JPG Also, when is the last time you saw View Quote |
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View Quote Attached File |
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Quoted:
You have to be kidding me....Brownells wants $500 for a stripped 6940 upper. I cant even find a P for sale anywhere. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Are these uppers in question marked “M4” right above the gas tube hole? Idk if Colt is the only one that marks them that way but it might help...
EDIT- NM, I looked at the link for the uppers Snake River is selling. Marked M4. |
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Quoted: Okay, educate me. What am I wrong about ? View Quote You are spreading misinformation and causing a great deal of bullshit with a number of Colt dealers getting a flood of emails right now pertaining to the authenticity of their inventory. Those raised C keyhole uppers do not have stuck on / glued on forge codes. They are left over stock from the early/mid 2000s The comment made about how colt doesn’t sell stripped uppers is also bullshit. That is only true in very recent years. That wasn’t true back in the day. Colt part number SP63528 is the only standard cataloge part number Colt sells for a upper with forward assist/ejection port door. They also release overrun, leftover upper stripped over the years. |
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This may be a difference in the vendor Colt was using at the time and the difference in tooling/molds that Cerro Forge had at that certain time.
I would not jump to the fake conclusion just yet. Best would be to e-mail Cerro with pictures and ask them at Cerro Contact Another example of variances between forge houses for your digestion is the number "1" on the Anchor Harvey (Split A) uppers. They have no foot on them. Cerro engraved uppers do have the foot to the "1". Below is Right: (C AF) Colt - Accurate Forging - No T-Marks Center: (C Keyhole) Colt Cerro Forge - T-Marks with foot to the 1 in T12 and T10 Left: ( C Split A) Colt Anchor Harvey - T-Marks with no foot to the 1 in T12 and T10 The plot thickens! |
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okay. If you have a URL in particular, happy to do so. Can you summarize what the comment was or is ?
You are spreading misinformation and causing a great deal of bullshit with a number of Colt dealers getting a flood of emails right now pertaining to the authenticity of their inventory. Those raised C keyhole uppers do not have stuck on / glued on forge codes. They are left over stock from the early/mid 2000s
The comment made about how colt doesn’t sell stripped uppers is also bullshit. That is only true in very recent years. That wasn’t true back in the day. Colt part number SP63528 is the only standard cataloge part number Colt sells for a upper with forward assist/ejection port door. They also release overrun, leftover upper stripped over the years. Then, there is the lack of dry moly lube inside the receiver. I do not think anyone has found a Colt without it. Now, @cthorton , you could be correct, that with all the production for the War on Terror in early 2000s that some just left the factory without it. So far, I have not heard anyone verify they have seen the interior of a Colt receiver without dry moly. If they have, and this body feels confident that the receivers are real, so be it. I think there is enough evidence to raise the question, and for you to answer in a civil manner and not tell me I am full of BS. As I said, I have conferred with a Colt dealer, so if you want to go offline and we can compare names and opinions, great. There is one dealer who I feel knows more about Colt that anyone else I have met, and there are a few here on this forum who know a lot. I will pose that to him as well. Quoted:
This may be a difference in the vendor Colt was using at the time and the difference in tooling/molds that Cerro Forge had at that certain time. Another example of variances between forge houses for your digestion is the number "1" on the Anchor Harvey (Split A) uppers. They have no foot on them. Cerro engraved uppers do have the foot to the "1". Below is Right: (C AF) Colt - Accurate Forging - No T-Marks Center: (C Keyhole) Colt Cerro Forge - T-Marks with foot to the 1 in T12 and T10 Left: ( C Split A) Colt Anchor Harvey - T-Marks with no foot to the 1 in T12 and T10 |
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Quoted:
Real "C" forged Colt and fake. I like the anodizing better on the fake, but look how robust the C is in the real upper. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/471615/IMG_2533__2__JPG-773140.JPG View Quote Anyway on the top receiver the C is of the wrong shape.. too round.. compared to the usual raised C... |
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Quoted: okay. If you have a URL in particular, happy to do so. Can you summarize what the comment was or is ? Well, I am presenting the case that these are counterfeits. I believe that they are. I have consulted with one Colt dealer who agrees. I am not aware of many "Colt Dealers" that carry old stock uppers. Maybe three or four that might. If I these are legit, then this discussion will turn that up. So far, I would say that the discussion is split, with those who know about Colt and think this is a fake to be slightly ahead of those who think it is legit. I think you are rather pointed in your comment that I am spreading misinformation or BS. Try stating your case without the finger pointing. If it they are legit, even better, but I am seeing too much evidence to suggest they are not. I will try to keep an open mind, but you don't need to resort to name calling and agitation, do you? Can you be civil about the discussion. I have withheld the seller's name out of respect for him to do the right thing, and also in-case I am wrong, and someone proves this sort of receiver is legit. It is this sort of banter, quite frankly, that gives this forum a bad name outside of ARFcom. They appear to have some sort of adhesive or welding. It is certainly easier to see with the eye and a magnifying glass than a picture, but one of the pics clearly shows something like that at the top right of one of the "C" 's. You state that they do not. I do not know. How do you know? I can say that this looks like a very sloppy job, and while others have said they have seen narrow forge markings, these are so narrow as to break, and I cannot see that being a forge mark. There is also some evidence of the "C" area having a slight discolor near the anodizing, suggestive of some sort of manipulation. That is my opinion. You seem so sure as to make a statement. I did not say they were epoxied, but that they look like it. They do not look like a forge mark. I did not say that Colt doesn't sell stripped uppers. Please do not call that bullshit. Read my comments again. I said that I have never seen it, and asked if others have seen it. From the comments made from others here, like @Tigwelder, and I think one other, they have seen that, as well as the black T-marks. I did not state that was cause to call it a fake. There are lots of other evidence, and I think we -- certainly I -- now know that Colt did sell stripped and black T-marked uppers. Then, there is the lack of dry moly lube inside the receiver. I do not think anyone has found a Colt without it. Now, @cthorton , you could be correct, that with all the production for the War on Terror in early 2000s that some just left the factory without it. So far, I have not heard anyone verify they have seen the interior of a Colt receiver without dry moly. If they have, and this body feels confident that the receivers are real, so be it. I think there is enough evidence to raise the question, and for you to answer in a civil manner and not tell me I am full of BS. As I said, I have conferred with a Colt dealer, so if you want to go offline and we can compare names and opinions, great. There is one dealer who I feel knows more about Colt that anyone else I have met, and there are a few here on this forum who know a lot. I will pose that to him as well. View Quote You have a rather shallow understanding of the history with this stuff. Those forge codes have not been manipulated. If you think they have been then chisel them off and prove it. You are also accusing a seller of dishonesty which is completely out of line. There is nothing for him to make right. Your dicssion with a colt dealer is also no proof of anything because you didn’t ask the question correctly or the dealer misunderstood your question and gave you a truthful but incomplete answer. |
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Quoted: There were thousands of 6520s made in the early 2000s with no dry lube in the upper. You have a rather shallow understanding of the history with this stuff. Those forge codes have not been manipulated. If you think they have been then chisel them off and prove it. You are also accusing a seller of dishonesty which is completely out of line. View Quote As to me calling out a seller, I have spoken with the seller, and believe that he is a victim of this scam, and did not know he was buying a forgery. I have kept his name out of it, and some of the readers have asked me privately, and I have not replied to their IMs.. It is inconsequential to this post, or at least to my motivation, who the seller is. The point is that there are fake Colt uppers being sold. I have seen them not just from one seller, but at least two that I know of, and there are suggestions of another 2 or 3. That is a lot of people all of a sudden selling dozens of 15 year old Colt receivers that look brand new. We have all been monitoring the sites that sell "new old stock" Colt, both in terms of EE and its sister sites, and online dealers. It would appear that there is a recent surge in supply of something quite unique, if true. That also raises a red flag, to me. |
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Quoted:
The T-marks are going to be made during finishing, and not on the forging. I am not sure what uniformity there is or isn't in the T-markings. I have a current 2018 Colt Cerro Forge with the 1s without footing. Also a square forge the same way. I am not sure that tells us anything. View Quote I was merely pointing out that due to sooooooooo many variations in the manufacturing processes over the years, jumping to the conclusion that you have "fake" Colt uppers based on the thickness of the "C" and the appearance of being "glued on" is premature without more research. I do understand your view though, you have spent well earned cash on these parts and don't want to be duped. True Colt parts are now an investment. I was just pointing out other differences that are just as visual. I really would encourage you to contact Cerro and ask them. If they come back and say "it looks like a forgery on the forging from our foundry" (little humor there), then so be it. If not then a retraction is in order and you can rest assured you have the real deal. ETA: cthorton, please expand on your answers to provide facts. I am interested in your position that counters barrelnutz who has provided his evidence to support his claim. |
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Admittedly no expert here. That being said, show me one familiar with every Colt variation of every component.
Colt is not known for consistency. And instead of throwing stop sticks into the conversation and walking away, how about dropping some actual knowledge or insight? At least one pic looks to be fucked with as far as the C marking goes. Font does not match any Colt forging that I have ever seen. If somebody has a matching example or Google image, bust it out. Colt receivers without dry lube? Maybe blems, as the TDP specifies it as a requirement. Color filled T marks? Could be a cost saving measure by omitting them. Stripped vs completed? Who knows? Seen/bought both. Maybe just particulars of individual sale? Contacting Cerro forge representatives would shine alot of light on the subject as stated. IF these are blems, I imagine Cerro would likely have pitched them back into the furnace before anybody bothered to machine/ano them. Also, usually contact overruns/blems will have the C marking milled off and sold elsewhere from what I have seen. Are these phony? Who knows? Could be? But if somebody found a way to take a $40 receiver and jump that value to $140 with a bit of doctoring, I'd say that they would be doing so in mass fashion. |
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Quoted: As to me calling out a seller, I have spoken with the seller, and believe that he is a victim of this scam, and did not know he was buying a forgery. View Quote You didn't know what you were buying and the seller probably didn't know exactly what he was selling. If it was advertised as a "colt flattop upper" and you didn't ask any further questions beyond that, then that is your fault. You were expecting a current production upper with current production markings and got a NOS one. You failed to do your research. You failed to manage your gun project correctly. |
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Quoted: Quit repeating this. No scam has taken place. You didn't know what you were buying and the seller probably didn't know exactly what he was selling. If it was advertised as a "colt flattop upper" and you didn't ask any further questions beyond that, then that is your fault. You were expecting a current production upper with current production markings and got a NOS one. You failed to do your research. You failed to manage your gun project correctly. View Quote |
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Something that I noticed....
Molds for forgings rarely change, without adequate reason. Engineering will not change that mass producing mold on a whim, especially when hundreds of thousands of units are cast from it. THIS is a link to a current EE ad for stripped Colt uppers. (Link fixed). Pic from ad: Notice the profile of the forging circled in red. A few that I dug out for comparison: Non Colt: Colt: (2 Cerro and 1 Anchor Harvey.) Take what you will from it, I smell something fuckey. (Also, no dry lube coating on interior in ad). |
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Quoted:
Something that I noticed.... Molds for forgings rarely change, without adequate reason. Engineering will not change that mass producing mold on a whim, especially when hundreds of thousands of units are cast from it. THIS is a link to a current EE ad for stripped Colt uppers. (Link fixed). Pic from ad: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_220025-775061.png Notice the profile of the forging circled in red. A few that I dug out for comparison: Non Colt: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_215659-775062.jpg Colt: (2 Cerro and 1 Anchor Harvey.) https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_215743-775063.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_215803-775067.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_215819-775068.jpg Take what you will from it, I smell something fuckey. (Also, no dry lube coating on interior in ad). View Quote |
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Quoted:
Something that I noticed.... Molds for forgings rarely change, without adequate reason. Engineering will not change that mass producing mold on a whim, especially when hundreds of thousands of units are cast from it. THIS is a link to a current EE ad for stripped Colt uppers. (Link fixed). Pic from ad: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_220025-775061.png Notice the profile of the forging circled in red. A few that I dug out for comparison: Non Colt: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_215659-775062.jpg Colt: (2 Cerro and 1 Anchor Harvey.) https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_215743-775063.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_215803-775067.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/416992/20181216_215819-775068.jpg Take what you will from it, I smell something fuckey. (Also, no dry lube coating on interior in ad). View Quote |
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Tig and barrelnutz, Here are two Colt M4 uppers one from Accurate Forging on the bottom and Cerro Forging (that acquired Accurate Forging in 2000) and you can see the differences in front of the port door you are referring to. https://i.imgur.com/WAe3pHr.jpg I am now wondering if the NOS M4 uppers that are coming on the market could be true and made during the transition phase of Accurate Forging into Cerro? Maybe... ETA: Here is a Colt Anchor Harvey M4 upper I dug up for reference also. https://i.imgur.com/uYjKMxd.jpg View Quote drw1006 Thanks for posting that info, your theory is sound. And the pics prove that there are/were variations. Not really something that I paid any attention to until now. |
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Btw Isn’t C AF colt Alcoa Forge?
Back in the 2000 I was told so.. |
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Quoted:
Tig and barrelnutz, Here are two Colt M4 uppers one from Accurate Forging on the bottom and Cerro Forging (that acquired Accurate Forging in 2000) and you can see the differences in front of the port door you are referring to. https://i.imgur.com/WAe3pHr.jpg I am now wondering if the NOS M4 uppers that are coming on the market could be true and made during the transition phase of Accurate Forging into Cerro? Maybe... ETA: Here is a Colt Anchor Harvey M4 upper I dug up for reference also. https://i.imgur.com/uYjKMxd.jpg View Quote Must be an older feature.. my A1, C7 as well as the 2000 made A2 C AF receiver have a similar (but not the same) curved portion in front of the port door... On the flat tops they probably slowly switched to the straight design... maybe its a reinforcement. |
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C AF: Colt/ Accurate Forge(purchased by Cerro Forge in 2000)
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Quoted:
C AF: Colt/ Accurate Forge(purchased by Cerro Forge in 2000) View Quote found this old thread discussing the AF marking any pic of the C A (not slintered - Alcoa) marking? Ive never seen one |
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Quoted: thanks found this old thread discussing the AF marking any pic of the C A (not slintered - Alcoa) marking? Ive never seen one View Quote |
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