This may or may not be the place to discuss what is going on. However, being a customer that has spent thousands of dollars on your products I feel that myself and the countless other customers you have deserve an explanation.

I would wholeheartedly like to believe that the current comment on Military Arms' Instagram page that someone made from the Larue username about basically supporting a ban on bump fire stocks, or any item for that matter, was taken out of context and was not actually what you meant. Can we please get some calcification on this matter?

Not to speak for Mark, but the question hinges on whether or not the NRA is a bunch of traitorous backstabbing money grubbing fudds throwing all gun owners under the bus or whether they are dealing as best they can with a shitty political situation with the best interests of all gun owners at heart.

Mark and the rest of the grownups appear to be going for the latter.

But there are some opportunists who are propagating the former in the hopes of getting some of gun owner  money.  (NOTE:  Not accusing MAC of that, but I guarantee he got a big giant patreon bump)

At the end of the day you have to accept some facts.

1.  Most people think full auto is illegal and it should be illegal.
2.  What they heard on the videos of Las Vegas was full auto.
3.  Something made that AR go full auto.

Now, you can either state that all ARs are inherently capable of that rate of fire and that is just what semi auto really is OR you can blame the stock.

If you go with the former you run the very real risk of a no shit full on, no loop hole AR ban.  If you go with the latter, you go with a very discrete, though regrettable, ban that affects essentially no one.

Choose your strategy carefully.

No matter what, the issue has been delayed by the NRA's statement, and the longer the delay the better because passions cool down and the masses are easily swayed.  If the NRA did nothing but delay a vote, it was of inestimable value.

Nobody no our side wants to ban anything.  But if its a choice between bump stocks and a full blown AWB, I'll throw the hungry wolves a bone.  It sucks.  But its reality.  And stomping your feet and having a tantrum doesn't make reality go away.

There is a shitty bill going through congress now.  Lets see where the NRA stands on it as written.  If they support it, I'll be right there with you with pitch forks.

I agree with Sylvan although I don’t like what the NRA had to do. When soaked in gasoline, avoid playing with fire.

+1, and pitting gun people against gun people is not a good strategy. Grow up MAC.

I personally understand exactly what you are saying and where you are coming from. What you believe is what you believe. I personally don't own a bump stock and never would. This of course is my opinion and I don't speak for anyone else when I say those things. However, I see the lynch mob mentality starting to form among some people.

I think that I speak for quite a few people when I say that I was looking for some clarification on the matter. I'd hate to see this situation handled in the wrong way causing the masses to throw their hands up and stop support Larue or any company that I believe in.

Facts?

1. Full auto may as well be illegal since the NRA supported FOPA no more can be purchased so the ones remaining are largely out of reach for the everyday firearms enthusiast.
2. What was full auto?  Since you don't know the definition per the ATF here is a link to the definition specifically as it relates to the AR pattern rifle.
3. No, something made it sound like it was full auto but by the ATF definition the weapon was only firing one time every time the trigger was actuated.

By your arguments Jerry Miculek should be illegal when he shoots a revolver

ETA
Bet this is faster rate of fire than the vegas shooter, and he did a reload.


Maybe the above was just because he was well practiced and a relative youngster at the time.  Here he's a little older and slower...and a .44 mag.


Should practicing that much or taking a class from him be illegal too?

AS much as I like Mark, not supporting a company here or there is your right as a consumer.  but not supporting the NRA is fucking suicidal for any gun owner (or any real American).  Had the NRA come out like GOA and said, "deal with it" they would be not only irrelevant with the current bill, but they would have lost the support of the majority of gun owners.  which means they would lose the ability to lobby on our behalf.  The NRA has spent 150 years positioning themselves as the  voice of American Gun Owners and has used that voice, on the most part, to our benefit.

They could have pissed all of that away in a heart beat if they went full Larry Pratt and no one would have been happy except for the democrats in congress and Bloomberg.

the echo chamber of ARFCOM is not the majority of gun owners.  Someday I hope it is.  But probably not in my lifetime.

And since mark makes almost all his money on AR15 accessories and guns, do you really think he would support the NRA if they were actually attacking ARs instead of defending them?

Fuckin' politics, dived and conquer.

We eat our own.

Your argument sounds exactly like the GM bailout a few years ago.  Is the NRA now too big to fail?  Maybe they can ask for a .gov bailout too.

You know, if you could read as well as you could fling shit like an agitated monkey, you might make it through middle school.

You are attributing an opinion to me when what I clearly stated was the majority of Americans.

to the OP, do you really want to align yourself with people like this?

This is an Industry Board.  If you want to shit on Mark and others who support the NRA when our gun rights are most threatened, you probably want to take it somewhere else.

I'm sorry I guess?  Sounded like the rest of your post agreed with getting rid of bumpfires because they make it scary, did I comprehend that wrong?

Yes.

I'm cutting for ease of reading not trying to cut out you're part about pitchforks but why throw a bone before we even know what the game is? That's my biggest problem with how this was handled.  Do they need to possibly sacrifice for the greater good? Maybe.  Do they need to call for regulations? Hell no.

"In the aftermath of the evil and senseless attack in Las Vegas, the American people are looking for answers as to how future tragedies can be prevented.  Unfortunately, the first response from some politicians has been to call for more gun control.  Banning guns from law-abiding Americans based on the criminal act of a madman will do nothing to prevent future attacks.  This is a fact that has been proven time and again in countries across the world.  In Las Vegas, reports indicate that certain devices were used to modify the firearms involved. Despite the fact that the Obama administration approved the sale of bump fire stocks on at least two occasions, the National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law.  The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations.  In an increasingly dangerous world, the NRA remains focused on our mission: strengthening Americans' Second Amendment freedom to defend themselves, their families and their communities.  To that end, on behalf of our five million members across the country, we urge Congress to pass National Right-to-Carry reciprocity, which will allow law-abiding Americans to defend themselves and their families from acts of violence."


After having this rolling around in my head for a week, I understand WHY they recommended having the ATF take another look at them.  Lesser of 2 evils.  I get it.


However, they went too far with the bolded statement above.  They've put us in a dangerous situation, and have the DC Commies chomping at the bit.

Wayne LaPierre and Chris Cox are not our friends, and need to go.

Why is MAC the one that needs to grow up?

The NRA through its actions emboldened even "A" rated Republicans to sponsor yesterday's bill that will ban a hell of a lot more than just stupid ass bump fire stocks.

What the "adults" were really saying the whole time was that to cave on the bump fire stock position was retarded because the way bills and the ATF work you know it was going to open the door to everything else.

Now here we are.  A seriously anti-gun bill is introduced in the house with far reaching implications.....and it has Republican support.

Mac can grow the fuck up for taking one quote from GD and posting it on Instagram with no context just to burn a company.
That is ignorant.

edit: we all know Mark rubs GD the wrong way. He enjoys it.

On one side we have some mature individuals who realize what our current political process can require, on the other side some outraged "no compromise" believers who seem to think the NRA lobbyists will rubber stamp whatever the anti gunners come up with and even carry it around to get signatures on the floor.

They try to make a case that Fudd's are undermining the process - yet the Fudd's built the protections we currently enjoy and got us to 40+ state CCW, along with continued momentum on National Reciprocity. I appreciate their idealism yet it's entirely that - lacking any experience or judgment. If it wasn't so normal I would think some of them were moles.

The NRA played a delaying tactic and attempted to communicate some flexibility. We will not get that from the anti gunners. When this plays out, the additional restrictions written into the potential bills will collide with that - hey, we said bumpstocks, what the heck is all this other stuff and the kitchen sink, too. Nope, we can't agree on that.

This is DC every day, not your typical playground ball game, children. Not even. Declaring hate and discontent, taking your glove and going home won't accomplish zilch other than to limit who gets to play. You haven't had to rumble over the GCA, FOPA, and the AWB, then turn CCW completely around and many other gains. The idealism of youth is nice, but the reality of mature adulthood requires you make the better long term decision. A good example is the difference in my older generation, where divorce runs much lower than yours. We learned to stick it out for the mutual benefit of both. You, unfortunately, have been given too many examples of being completely selfish and turning your back on what you need to do - compromise.

Some of those compromises can be changed, others not so much. But JUST LIKE THE ANTI GUNNERS, you don't give up and you keep pushing. Outing players you think might be bad for the game because they play with a different tactical and strategic plan does NOT mean they are wrong. Considering the huge number of things we've rolled back in the last 30 years, some balance on your part needs to be seen. Frankly, this generation did not have a part in that and if anything their isn't much of a track record to show for things so far.

Chill out, children, adults are playing the long game and ranting over it won't really do much about it other than demonstrate the maturity and skills needed to handle things is the future are seriously lacking. We know because we've been there and learned differently. So should you.

How long has Larue been in business? Longer than most have enjoyed their products, and it wasn't your generation who got things turned around for them to even form a company. That took constantly communicating to Congress about the stupidity of the AWB, and even further back, how in another generation the "55 Saves Lives" completely failed to achieve it's goals. My generation did that - not yours - suffered thru kneejerk reaction to the MSM news cycle, and now we are on the other side of the curve where people are seeing how they manipulate the system for their agenda.

Apparently the youthful at heart do not and are being taken advantage of it. Time to grow up and get over it. Not everything you hear is for your ears, there is a lot of reading between the lines when two organizations are squaring off in public over a national tragedy. So far all we are getting from the anti gunners is the same old same old, which we have defeated in the past. GOOD. Give it some time and keep from being part of the opposition's back lash to force doing the wrong thing.

All sides are trying to stir the hornets nest from behind a keyboard.  Leave it alone and stop stoking the fire and it will extinguish itself.   Grown men losing their minds of forums and social media...

This is what baffles me.  You don't negotiate with the enemy when your boot is on his neck. 

My intentions were never to crap on Mark. I clearly stated that we wanted CLARIFICATION. Never once did say anything negative or harmful to Mark or Larue as a company. I love their product but people want answers as to what his garden hose comment really meant. Does he or does he not support the ban of bumpfire stocks.

Did he or the NRA request a ban?

Three things I know:

1. I love me some LaRue Tactical.

2. Bump fire stocks are stupid.

3. I don’t want to give up one ounce of freedom to the anti-gunners.

How do we rectify those last two in the wake of Las Vagas? No controversy there, right?

Print out your above reply, add it to a sh1t sammich and eat it.

Condescending Ass

Some may think that the NRA's statement is the "bone" to throw to the wolves to keep them at bay, however the only thing they did was provide cover for the Republican members of congress to support additional gun control.

Have any of you read the content of the bills that have been introduced? While they sure as hell ban bumpstocks, they can also be interpreted much more broadly and could easily be read to ban lighter triggers, lightweight bolt carriers, lightening cuts in a pistol slide, pretty much anything that might increase the cyclic rate of a firearm. It may not necessarily pass constitutional muster but when has that stopped legislators before? Do you think that one of the stacked liberal courts would issue an injunction preventing further gun control measures while the issue is fought? Doubtful. And how long do you think it would be before something like this made it up to the USSC, if they would even hear the case. Plenty of screwed up and unconstitutional legislation is legitimized by the courts (NY SAFE Act). I would think that the "Full auto protection act" or whatever feel good name they are calling this would be no different.


No, the bumpstock is just a red herring. The real issue is further gun control efforts and allowing congress to pass more restrictions on how the gun works mechanically, or worse if they add additional language on how a firearm may be fired (i.e. bumpfiring = illegal). We already have a defacto FA ban, now some industry members want to open the door for further functional changes. NO, just NO. Not one more inch.

Larue made a comment somewhere on ARFCOM that stated, "Like I said, if I come up with a way to use a waterhose to shoot up all your ammo faster, does that mean waterhoses are protected by the second amendment?"

To me this can be taken multiple ways. I can't tell if it is sarcastic or serious or a hidden agenda(I don't believe that it is). However, I think everyone wants an explanation. I will say it again! I LIKE LARUE'S PRODUCTS AND THEIR CUSTOMER SERVICE. I don't personally know anyone who works their or the person who owns the company.

I just want answer from Larue as to what was meant by that statement. I think MAC kicked a hornets nest and I hate the fact that I feel like I'm stirring the pot right now. Maybe I should have just emailed them instead of posting this thread because I DO NOT want to kick dirt on Larue in any way shape or form. If I didn't agree with the answers I got I simply wouldn't support them any longer because that is my right as a consumer and an American. With that being said, my decision on wither or not to support them would come after HEARING THE FACTS.

I'll continue to stand by Mark and LT, as I think his comments were taken out of context by that many in the group known as "former."

This part here is interesting and of note IMO:
The fact is that the average Joe and Jane don't much care about the mechanics/method of achieving a high rate of fire.
They only know that it "sprays lots of bullets."

Time will tell where this all leads and what role the NRA's position achieves, but I do know we need to stick together and continue the fight. That's the biggest part of the Constitution - the legal and political means to "continue the fight," for what we believe in.

I'm moving to Texas next summer to be with like minded folks and continue my little firearms lifestyle that I enjoy.
I left CA, sold my little house that I loved dearly - that my late wife and I bought together - and fled the state to AZ.
Leaving other family behind for now, my step daughter included, waiting until we all re-unite in TX together and start out new lives.

I hope we can all stick together in vision and goal as gun owners in this country to keep up the fight and keep pushing toward what we believe in.
We all have nothing without that.

A.W.D.

I've said all along that bump fire stocks are a sacrificial lamb.

That is definitely the most retarded post I have ever seen on a website.

Too bad the Republicans did just like a lot of us expected yesterday---the bill they introduced "to ban bumpfire" would ban or regulate a hell of a lot of other things.

This is why the NRA defenders, "compromisers", and "appeasers" are short-sighted, narrow-minded fools.  They condescend to us that they were "playing the long game" but anyone with 1/2 a brain knew any legislation proposed would be a disaster.

Amen x 2

#2 is your opinion, and only that, nothing more.

secondly, why do we need to rectify anything in the wake of Las Vegas? Would any of this legislation have prevented the massacre? Nope. The shooter could have used a scoped bolt action and caused as many or more deaths. He also could have qualified to own FA firearms if he wanted. He wasn't on any lists, he had the means to purchase FA guns.

This is nothing more than feel good, knee jerk legislation to further the gun control agenda by standing on the bodies of those who were murdered with something that would have had no impact on the outcome.

thank you for interjecting some logic and actual facts into the conversation..

the rate at which the NRA spends money.. if we all held our donations for a year, they'd be standing at the capital building with a torch demanding repeal of the GCA..

Count the number of Republicans already for this bill and the ones that have already spoken up on the issue betraying us and ask yourself if this will likely make it through the house:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/Republicans-sponsor-bill-banning-bump-fire-meet-the-traitors/5-2040932/

If the NRA hadn't already come out against bumpstocks (and surely they conferred with many of these congressman on the issue before they made any statements) do you think so many Rs would have jumped sides on this issue?

Mark has been posting in here off and on this morning:

BREAKING-MAC-Military-Arms-Channel-removes-support-from-NRA.

Looks like a rat race to produce several bipartisan bills. Do you have a link to the bill you’re referring to? I’d like to read it.

duh.

that's why the NRA got in the conversation.

had they taken the position, "not one more inch" guess what.  The legislation still goes through, only with zero NRA input.

What do you think goes better for us?

The current bill sucks.  Does the NRA support the current bill?  Because if they oppose it, the anti-gun reaction of "The NRA is against any regulation" has zero effective range.  

That is the question that matters.

the one I have seen sucks dick.

Link is 2 posts above yours.

My point is I’ve seen the word regulation with regard to the NRA but I have not heard them say ban

My initial reaction to this topic was pretty much "F the NRA" when I read the (highlighted in red) comment above.  With some of the smoke now clearing, and having had time to think this through...  It really comes down to the points Sylvan made above.  

While most of the public doesn't know the technical difference between semi-auto fire, and full-auto fire...  They can equate the rate of fire heard in Las Vegas with the rate of fire heard in the movies they watch.  Perception becomes reality.  Of course, the press has informed them that the now-infamous Bump Fire Stock is what allowed the shooter to mow people down with such a high rate of fire.  So the public is aware of that, and the majority of them would like to see it removed.  

I also understand the thinking of the "not one more inch" crowd.  The fear is if the Bump-Fire Stock is made illegal due to this shooting, that they'll come after something else after the next big shooting, and the next, and the next, etc... etc... etc...  Until all our gun rights are gone.  The question I'd pose to these people is, do you really believe that the NRA would back down from a fight if the .gov tried to ban, say... all semi-auto rifles?  I just can't see it.  

To the average American non shooter, and some who are shooters, fully automatic machine guns should not be allowed for public use.  Period.  Any tool or gadget which allows a gun to be fired like a machine gun, shouldn't be allowed either.  That is their view.

For clarification, I personally believe that the NFA is unconstitutional.  We should be allowed to have "any terrible implement of the soldier" for our use.  However, if you asked the vast majority of Americans, they would strongly disagree with my view.  They are wrong, but that doesn't matter, because it's the reality of the landscape we find ourselves in.

goddamn fudds will aid in the death of the Republic

luckily a 30 sec conversation is all it takes to out them

This is quite possibly the most articulate thing I've seen regarding this subject and I agree entirely.  Well put.

So after the worst shooting massacre in USA history where Suzy Homemaker watched the horror and heard long strings of Full Auto fire you figure we had a boot on the enemies neck?

WTF?

The NRA knew exactly "what the game" was before making any statements.

You ever try to talk to your kids when they are throwing a tantrum?

yeah.  its like that.

First, let's all be clear that the NRA DID agree that FA should be subject to additional regulation.  Realistically, the best we could ever hope for there is opening of the registry, if you're honest with reality.  It is what it is and it's no harder than passing a 4473 other than the wait for right or for wrong.  

Second, in regards to bumpstocks, they simply punted that back to the ATF.  They were not afoul of current law when they were approved, and that hasn't changed.  Delay, delay, delay is always their first plan of action, and historically it has worked quite well.  It also allows politicians to delay in the same fashion by punting the issue to the ATF first before committing to action on new laws.

Third, if they had dug in their heels, the NRA would not be in a position to have a say on impending legislation (you know it's coming) that will certainly be drafted in a way to overreach beyond bumpstocks and actually fuck us.

With respect to ML's statement, he's right, current reading of the 2nd Amendment does not protect bumpstocks.  You can disagree that they should be banned, but they certainly can be banned.  In my opinion, bumpstocks are a retarded hill to pick to die on, and it's not even a hill, it looks more like a valley to the majority of America (sorry folks, that's the truth).  When the people who don't own guns, the fudds, and casual gun owners are aligned on something, it has a good chance of happening.

Spoken like a rational adult!  very well put, tantrums don't help the one's cause.  Throwing tantrums don't make the thrower feel better.  Throwing tantrums definitely doesn't make the thrower look good...

Why does everyone assume that legislation must be passed?  Legislation was proposed after Sandy Hook and made it nowhere.  And that was kids.  Vegas was a bunch of country loving Trump supporters.  Legislation was always going to be proposed, with or without Vegas, with or without Sandy Hook.  That doesn't mean it was ever going to go anywhere.

because of the multiple videos this was a much higher risk.  

People acknowledge that guns are dangerous and bad people do bad things.

but full auto is different in the mind of the public, for good or bad.

I get what you're saying, but the NRA would have been smart to hold off and see which way the wind was blowing before they offered up anything. 

What did they offer up?

"Despite the fact that the Obama administration approved the sale of bump fire stocks on at least two occasions, the National Rifle Association is calling on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) to immediately review whether these devices comply with federal law.  The NRA believes that devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like fully-automatic rifles should be subject to additional regulations."

ATF to review whether the devices comply with federal law (bumpstocks do).
The NRA believes devices designed to allow semi-automatic rifles to function like FA (bumpstocks don't) should be subject to additional regulations (FAs already are, and more).

They really didn't say anything of substance.

Other than the issues I mentioned in my previous posts another downside of the NRA's position is they are allowing the Democrats and the media to frame the issue without pushback, or forcing them to clarify the language.

FA and semi auto are already terms the media likes to blur the lines between. How may times have you heard some nitwit talking head discuss automatic assault rifles in context of a major news story and not be corrected?

With the NRA's position of kicking this back to the ATF saying the regulations should be reviewed, they are conceding now that semi auto can be ubiquitous with full auto via a non-regulated device and the government needs to take another look at this issue. I don't for one minute believe that the ATF or congress will come back with fact based rule changes or legislation that isn't overly broad and subject to gross misinterpretation. Now that blurry FA/semi auto line gets even blurrier. It becomes less of a chore to now say semi auto should be banned because it can easily, and with no real modification of the firearm simulate full auto fire.

You can call me some sort of illiterate neanderthal for taking the "not one more inch" approach, but exactly what is this long game you speak of? That our government imposed chains rest lightly on our shoulders? That the NRA gets to be part of the conversation on what rights to take away from us.
The NRA's position has always been that the blame for a tragedy like this rests with the shooter, not the firearm. This new statement, even though it does not come out an say it directly, is an affront to that position. Now they are saying that bump stocks maybe should be regulated ergo, maybe it is the gun's fault.

Gee, that seems like a great plan.