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Posted: 11/25/2021 1:20:51 PM EDT
I finally got my GAP DX Challenger antenna up and connected.
It is located about 60 feet from my entry box. In the entry box I have a ground wire to a ground rod directly under the box, as well as a MFJ spake gap where the LMR400 connected to the LMR400 up to the radio. The question is, Should I add a ground rod and spark gap out t the antenna...would there be any benefit, or worse a down side to doubling up the spark gaps? 
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Posted: 11/25/2021 1:46:38 PM EDT
[#1]
No, you don't need an additional stage of lightning protection. You would, however, be well advised to get a better quality arrestor. PolyPhaser or Morgan are the brands you seek.
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Posted: 11/25/2021 1:57:58 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, you don't need an additional stage of lightning protection. You would, however, be well advised to get a better quality arrestor. PolyPhaser or Morgan are the brands you seek. |
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Posted: 11/25/2021 4:49:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Go with MOrgan Mfg protectors. In my opiion, they are superior to Polyphasers. Cheaper too. Besides having ceramic gas discharge tubes, Morgans come with static dissipating coils, quality DC blocking caps and bleed resistors included. Polyphasers don't. Polyphasers only come with ceramic discharge tubes and DC blocking caps. Any time high voltage discharges through a ceramic discharge tube, it generates a strong RF spike in the receiver. It may be a problem during winter storms or other weather conditions that generate a lot of static in the antennas.
This is particularly important in long wire antennas, like dipoles, especially if uninsulated wire is used. Your vertical may be DC grounded at the base. If it is, static should not be a big problem. |
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Posted: 11/25/2021 5:23:25 PM EDT
[#4]
ARRL has a detailed book on bonding and grounding practices. LINK
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Posted: 11/25/2021 6:20:38 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go with MOrgan Mfg protectors. In my opiion, they are superior to Polyphasers. Cheaper too. Besides having ceramic gas discharge tubes, Morgans come with static dissipating coils, quality DC blocking caps and bleed resistors included. Polyphasers don't. Polyphasers only come with ceramic discharge tubes and DC blocking caps. Any time high voltage discharges through a ceramic discharge tube, it generates a strong RF spike in the receiver. It may be a problem during winter storms or other weather conditions that generate a lot of static in the antennas. This is particularly important in long wire antennas, like dipoles, especially if uninsulated wire is used. Your vertical may be DC grounded at the base. If it is, static should not be a big problem. +1 on this. I use Morgan suppressors for all these reasons, too. |
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Posted: 11/25/2021 7:11:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Who all sells these Morgan Mfg surge suppressors???
I looked on my favorite DXengineeing, checked Amazon as well.. No love... |
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Posted: 11/25/2021 7:13:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ARRL has a detailed book on bonding and grounding practices. Probably a lot of really dry reading and overly head scientific theory, but I ordered this book Wednesday... |
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Posted: 11/25/2021 7:18:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who all sells these Morgan Mfg surge suppressors??? I looked on my favorite DXengineeing, checked Amazon as well.. No love... |
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Posted: 11/25/2021 9:09:04 PM EDT
[#9]
The Industrial Communications Engineers surge suppression products are now offered by Array Solutions, they are also DC grounded and work well.
https://www.arraysolutions.com/surge-and-rf-protection |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 2:23:33 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably a lot of really dry reading and overly head scientific theory, but I ordered this book Wednesday... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: ARRL has a detailed book on bonding and grounding practices. Probably a lot of really dry reading and overly head scientific theory, but I ordered this book Wednesday... I have it It convinced me to forget about most of the grounding and just leave the entire shack disconnected from the rest of the world when not being used. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 8:56:59 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably a lot of really dry reading and overly head scientific theory, but I ordered this book Wednesday... No, it is mostly plain English. Very readable. My only (minor) complaint is that the author seems to spend as much time telling you what info he is going to tell you as he does giving you the actual info. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 9:35:15 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, it is mostly plain English. Very readable. My only (minor) complaint is that the author seems to spend as much time telling you what info he is going to tell you as he does giving you the actual info. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Probably a lot of really dry reading and overly head scientific theory, but I ordered this book Wednesday... No, it is mostly plain English. Very readable. My only (minor) complaint is that the author seems to spend as much time telling you what info he is going to tell you as he does giving you the actual info. Tell them what you are going to tell them tell them tell them what you told them. he is probably former military, that is SOP |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 11:14:04 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have it It convinced me to forget about most of the grounding and just leave the entire shack disconnected from the rest of the world when not being used. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: ARRL has a detailed book on bonding and grounding practices. Probably a lot of really dry reading and overly head scientific theory, but I ordered this book Wednesday... I have it It convinced me to forget about most of the grounding and just leave the entire shack disconnected from the rest of the world when not being used. Lol, Why is that??? Did they just go so far over the top that you felt you could never get it done right or even close to their standards? Like you could spend 2 million to ground a $200.00 radio? |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 11:44:12 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. Tell them what you are going to tell them 2. tell them 3. tell them what you told them. he is probably former military, that is SOP I don't disagree with that structure, but if we consider that to be 3 sections (I inserted numbers in your post), section 1 should not be as large as section 2. Sections 1 and 3 should be concise and brief, and section 2 should be the meat of the sandwich and have the most content. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 1:51:44 PM EDT
[#15]
For those that have recommended the Morgan arrestors, one question. On the side of them, looks to be at the 239/N connector to radio, there's a smaller threaded pole with a nut on it. Is that for connecting to ground, in the event that the unit itself isn't mounted to it, or is it for something else?
I was looking at the Alpha-Delta ones with the replaceable cores, trying to see if the Polyphaser or Morgan ones have any kind of field service options or if they're a replaceable/disposable unit when activated. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 5:25:12 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lol, Why is that??? Did they just go so far over the top that you felt you could never get it done right or even close to their standards? Like you could spend 2 million to ground a $200.00 radio? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ARRL has a detailed book on bonding and grounding practices. Probably a lot of really dry reading and overly head scientific theory, but I ordered this book Wednesday... I have it It convinced me to forget about most of the grounding and just leave the entire shack disconnected from the rest of the world when not being used. Lol, Why is that??? Did they just go so far over the top that you felt you could never get it done right or even close to their standards? Like you could spend 2 million to ground a $200.00 radio? Yep and Yes. |
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Posted: 11/26/2021 5:49:32 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK , Thanks for the advice ! Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, you don't need an additional stage of lightning protection. You would, however, be well advised to get a better quality arrestor. PolyPhaser or Morgan are the brands you seek. So far the antenna receives like a champ...heard Washington and New Mexico yesterday..........have not transmitted voice yet, but tried JT65 and I have some issues to iron out. Radio goes into transmit , seems to put out the wattage, with a 1:1 on the SWR...but My JT65 software is not decoding and I get no responses to my CQ, even tho I can hear other people transmitting.. That will be the first thing to solve. I hope to get on the ARFCOM net Tuesday night, and give voice a try. |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 12:24:53 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: I finally got my GAP DX Challenger antenna up and connected. It is located about 60 feet from my entry box. In the entry box I have a ground wire to a ground rod directly under the box, as well as a MFJ spake gap where the LMR400 connected to the LMR400 up to the radio. The question is, Should I add a ground rod and spark gap out t the antenna...would there be any benefit, or worse a down side to doubling up the spark gaps? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/25600/thumbnail_IMG_2739-2180683.jpg @MK4Mod0 I forgot to ask, what bands are you getting able to work with that antenna? What is it? How are you liking it so far and how long is the run from the antenna to your radio??? |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 6:01:33 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @MK4Mod0 I forgot to ask, what bands are you getting able to work with that antenna? What is it? How are you liking it so far and how long is the run from the antenna to your radio??? I was shooting 40 watts and I got a 5-9 from him, and said I sounded good. I was also listening to some guys on 160. I still haven't figured my JT65 issue...even tho I did the one QSO, my propagation via PSK Reporter does not look good. The antenna seems to receive very well, I've heard a lot of guys all over the country, But I've done mostly listening . The GAP Challenger is good for 80, 40, 20, 15, 12,10, and 6 and you choose the Cap from a drop down menu with 5 choices from 3.5-3.9 MHZ. So far I like it a lot. I haven't put the radials on yet and that could be part of the problem. I chose to mount it on a post and want to call them to see if and how they suggest running the radial. I have limited ground space and that part of the reason I went with a vertical. I was told it would work well without the radial, but if I can get them run that would be a huge plus. The run to the house is 75 feet of LMR400 buried to an entry box on the side of the house. I have a lightning suppressor there and a ground wire hook to the suppressor down to a 4 foot ground rod completely driven into the ground. From the entry box to my radio is about 25 more feet of LMR400 to a switch so that I can choose either my TS-590S or TS440S. Band conditions as they are makes things a little difficult and without a panadapter or frequency scope it a lot of hunt and peck, scanning. I am looking at options for the TS590 to add a panadapter..................the wife will love this one !!! |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 7:52:28 PM EDT
[#20]
KF7P has a great webstore with a broad selection of grounding components, among other things like the Morgan arrestors. His entrance panels are sweet though pricey (IMO).
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Posted: 12/17/2021 8:08:21 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: KF7P has a great webstore with a broad selection of grounding components, among other things like the Morgan arrestors. His entrance panels are sweet though pricey (IMO). Yea, his boxes are a bit pricey for me. I just ordered the one off DXengineering a few lightning arrestors and some LMR400... Next week or so I hope to order an antenna or at least pick up a bunch ground rods and other grounding shit... My God do the little goodies add up.. This might be worse than all the electrical shit I bought for my car audio system... |
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Posted: 12/17/2021 9:10:54 PM EDT
[#22]
I've done plenty of critical infrastructure site protections conforming with R56 and other standards...
to do things right, you'll need to properly ground your house (shack) as well. redirect energy coming off the antenna/feedline into the ground before going towards the house, then again at the house, preferably before entering the building. a good grounding system is the core of protection so don't forget to analyze and incorporate your home and electrical system your house is close enough to the tower/antenna that a nearby strike can still damage/do harm. |
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Posted: 12/18/2021 1:29:38 PM EDT
[#23]
I'm thinking of rehanging my G5RV as well, just to have another antenna and something that I can switch back and forth to see just how the Challenger is for comparison.
The Wife will love this !!! |
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Posted: 12/19/2021 12:39:25 AM EDT
[#24]
If you have room for a G5RV, look at a Skeleton Cone... 'omni' and 80m + (~)
really decent antenna when fed from 300-ohm ladder line (might work w/ balun, but IDK) eta: I used it as guy wires (with insulators of course) on a mast for my 2m/7cm antennas. |
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Posted: 1/26/2022 12:01:11 AM EDT
[#25]
Speaking of coax lightning surpe protectors, what about Alpha Delta? Specifically the ATT3G500 version. This is the brand that Dave Casler recommends - FWIW. He says the PolyPhaser type are not professional vs the ADs.
https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/alf-att3g50uhp  |
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Posted: 1/26/2022 6:50:55 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...He says the PolyPhaser type are not professional vs the ADs. .... whatever. there are probably more PP's in use commercially than any other brand. not that there are not better out there, PP were (are?) an industry standard. |
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Posted: 1/26/2022 6:59:27 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking of coax lightning surpe protectors, what about Alpha Delta? Specifically the ATT3G500 version. This is the brand that Dave Casler recommends - FWIW. He says the PolyPhaser type are not professional vs the ADs. https://www.dxengineering.com/parts/alf-att3g50uhp https://static.dxengineering.com/global/images/prod/xlarge/alf-att3g50uhp_xl.jpg I don't have enough experience to say which brand is best, but that is exactly what I ended up with for the coax before it goes into my house. Might have been due to a Casler video; I can't remember. Anyway, HRO has them for a little less than DXE: https://www.hamradio.com/detail.cfm?pid=H0-005102 |
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Posted: 1/26/2022 12:14:33 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: whatever. there are probably more PP's in use commercially than any other brand. not that there are not better out there, PP were (are?) an industry standard. I don't have them in place yet, but I picked up 3 Poly Phasers to put in an enclosure that will go about face height on my Tower, then be grounded and bonded. Between Sub freezing temps, having both Covid and Pneumonia for the last month or so, I've kinda been on a project pause.... When the temps get back in the 40s/50s, I'll get back at it. As for now, I'm just stocking up parts needed for the job. |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 6:38:45 AM EDT
[#29]
This seems like the right thread to ask this question:
Are the lightning suppressors totally weatherproof? In other words, it is ok to have them outside, exposed to all the elements? |
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Posted: 3/26/2022 7:27:47 AM EDT
[#30]
The Morgan units are not waterproof. I use a plastic container dropped over the top of the ground rod they are mounted on to keep the rain off. It's not fancy, but it's worked for ten years.
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Posted: 4/3/2022 2:39:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: This seems like the right thread to ask this question: Are the lightning suppressors totally weatherproof? In other words, it is ok to have them outside, exposed to all the elements? Quoted: The Morgan units are not waterproof. I use a plastic container dropped over the top of the ground rod they are mounted on to keep the rain off. It's not fancy, but it's worked for ten years. I did write to the people at Alpha Delta, who said: The units themselves are weatherproofed, however the mating male connectors are not. You will need to either put the units in a weathertight enclosure or seal the mating male connectors with a product such as Coax Seal which is available from any ham dealer such as HRO, DX Eng, R&L, etc. |
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Posted: 4/3/2022 3:24:35 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep and Yes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ARRL has a detailed book on bonding and grounding practices. Probably a lot of really dry reading and overly head scientific theory, but I ordered this book Wednesday... I have it It convinced me to forget about most of the grounding and just leave the entire shack disconnected from the rest of the world when not being used. Lol, Why is that??? Did they just go so far over the top that you felt you could never get it done right or even close to their standards? Like you could spend 2 million to ground a $200.00 radio? Yep and Yes. Exactly The only thing most hams do with all the grounding they do is prevent RF spikes from damaging radios when there is a strike in the proximity of the station. They do not protect from lightning strikes even though many think they do. I get better protection by having the equipment, the antenna feed lines, the station ground, and the AC power AND AC grounds all disconnected from the rest of the world when not in use. My coax is connected to nothing My 600 ohm ladder line is disconnected with a big knife switch My station ground bar is disconnected from the ground rod with a big knife switch And all the station AC plugs ( except the 240 v amp ) is on the same big power strip that is unplugged thereby unplugging the AC ground too. The amp is unplugged from the 240v receptacle |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 4:22:39 PM EDT
[#33]
Since this is kind of an antenna thread, I thought I'd put this in here.
Last night I was having a bit of a rag-chew QSO with someone in NYS and a guy from MI called break so we had him join the conversation. All 3 of us have only been hams for about a year. The MI guy says how he has worked in electronics for 28 years, etc., and then tells how he put up this dipole he made and was getting high SWR where he wanted to be, so he and his buddy folded back the ends onto themselves and re-measured SWR and it made no difference. I think he said they did this a couple of times with the same "no change" result. He was going to go out and buy some other wire but the expense was a problem. So... I asked him... does the wire have insulation on it? The answer was yes.  I suggested that he strip off a bunch of the insulation and then try folding it back so that the folded back part is bare and the part it is folded back onto is also bare. All of his years "working in electronics" and somehow this did not click for him. |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 4:50:34 PM EDT
[#34]
Folding antenna wire back on itself will resonate at the new folded length, it will have a slightly larger bandwidth because it acts like a thicker wire
SWR is really meaningless. he needed to measure resonance to see what was happening the original wire had a high impedance for the freq he used and when he folded it back it still had a high impedance. He cant tell anything other than that with SWR What was he trying to do or show? having insulation on the wire will add a bit of capacitance compared to bare wire touching and that will affect resonance but not really any more than a single insulated wire compared to a single bare wire. The added capacitance chances the velocity factor of the wire. More than likely he probably cut the dipole to the 468/freq formula which is for 14 gauge bare wire so his SWR was high because it was insulated wire and it was resonating at a lower frequency and he just wasnt folding enough of the wire tip. All my antennas have the insulated wire, folding insulated wire, I twist it, adds some capacitance at the end which means you need an even shorter length. Or he folded too much back and missed the resonance length because he was doing too much at a time and ended up on the other side of the resonance with the wire being too short |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 5:02:18 PM EDT
[#35]
I didn't know you could measure resonance. How does one do that?
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Posted: 4/4/2022 5:03:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't know you could measure resonance. How does one do that? with an antenna analyzer or a VNA |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 5:06:14 PM EDT
[#37]
at resonance the antenna will have zero inductance and zero capacitance ( not really zero but they both zero out with each other ) with a pure resistive reading.
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Posted: 4/4/2022 5:09:19 PM EDT
[#38]
an example would be the screwdriver you made
a short vertical ( mobile antenna not 1/4 wave ) is very capacitive the screw driver adds inductance, it is a variable inductor, and you adjust it so the inductance cancels out the capacitance of the short vertical to put the vertical in resonance . |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 5:16:12 PM EDT
[#39]
resonance is simply the current and the voltage are in phase
capacitance makes the current lag the voltage inductance makes the voltage lag the current when the inductance and capacitance cancel each other the voltage and current are in phase that is what you are doing when loading an antenna say with a base coil. an in phase current and voltage means they peak at the same time in the same place on the wire maximizing the radiation of the energy peak |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 7:09:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Thanks for all that! I need to find that on the NanoVNA...
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Posted: 4/4/2022 8:47:55 PM EDT
[#41]
Well said Mach! @ Emoto If the frequency sweep is wide enough the resonant point can be spotted, the negative information is that the antenna could be resonant with an "R" value of ( for example) 250 Ohms which would be a VSWR of 5:1. Sometimes it's easier with a broad sweep to look for the low VSWR point and work from there. The correct point will be at resonance and a VSWR of 1:1 Resonance at a high VSWR will be far from the desired frequency. HTH
73, Rob |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 9:59:22 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Resonance at a high VSWR will be far from the desired frequency. HTH Not necessarily. An antenna could be resonant at the desired frequency, but with a resistance of say 300 ohms, leading to a high SWR in a 50 ohm system. With an analyzer generally you can look at resistance (R) and reactance (X) separately which is very helpful in some kinds of measurements. Tuning an off-center fed dipole for example is an exercise in futility without separate R and X. |
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Posted: 4/4/2022 10:57:58 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I bought a Morgan brand, says it shipped today. So far the antenna receives like a champ...heard Washington and New Mexico yesterday..........have not transmitted voice yet, but tried JT65 and I have some issues to iron out. Radio goes into transmit , seems to put out the wattage, with a 1:1 on the SWR...but My JT65 software is not decoding and I get no responses to my CQ, even tho I can hear other people transmitting.. That will be the first thing to solve. I hope to get on the ARFCOM net Tuesday night, and give voice a try. Are you running software in the bakground which syncs your computer clock? If not, do so. That will fix your decoding issue. |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 6:27:37 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well said Mach! @ Emoto If the frequency sweep is wide enough the resonant point can be spotted, the negative information is that the antenna could be resonant with an "R" value of ( for example) 250 Ohms which would be a VSWR of 5:1. Sometimes it's easier with a broad sweep to look for the low VSWR point and work from there. The correct point will be at resonance and a VSWR of 1:1 Resonance at a high VSWR will be far from the desired frequency. HTH 73, Rob 
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Posted: 4/5/2022 10:10:06 AM EDT
[#45]
@Emoto
Which antenna is this? It looks good enough for 20M and up in frequency with a tuner, depending upon the feed line. @Gamma762 I can agree, no problem. I do see feeding a folded dipole, for example, with 50 Ohm coax as more of a design problem. 73, Rob |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 10:35:37 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @Emoto Which antenna is this? It looks good enough for 20M and up in frequency with a tuner, depending upon the feed line. @Gamma762 I can agree, no problem. I do see feeding a folded dipole, for example, with 50 Ohm coax as more of a design problem. 73, Rob End-fed that was supposed to get me onto 160, LOL. |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 11:18:55 AM EDT
[#47]
I remember that, did you send the antenna back? I remember we discussed adding more wire to the length.
73, Rob |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 11:53:22 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not necessarily. An antenna could be resonant at the desired frequency, but with a resistance of say 300 ohms, leading to a high SWR in a 50 ohm system. With an analyzer generally you can look at resistance (R) and reactance (X) separately which is very helpful in some kinds of measurements. Tuning an off-center fed dipole for example is an exercise in futility without separate R and X. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Resonance at a high VSWR will be far from the desired frequency. HTH Not necessarily. An antenna could be resonant at the desired frequency, but with a resistance of say 300 ohms, leading to a high SWR in a 50 ohm system. With an analyzer generally you can look at resistance (R) and reactance (X) separately which is very helpful in some kinds of measurements. Tuning an off-center fed dipole for example is an exercise in futility without separate R and X. a simple center fed dipole should have a resonant impedance of somewhere close to 50-74 ohms or so depending on height above ground and conductivity of the ground A folded dipole will have an impedance at resonance of around 300 ohms which is why people feed them with 300 ohm or other open line it just depends on the type of antenna and how you want to feed it |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 12:38:59 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I remember that, did you send the antenna back? I remember we discussed adding more wire to the length. 73, Rob Not yet. That is on the table and may end up being what happens. They are communicating with me in a reasonable manner, so it may end up turning out well. We shall see. |
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Posted: 4/5/2022 1:50:21 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not yet. That is on the table and may end up being what happens. They are communicating with me in a reasonable manner, so it may end up turning out well. We shall see. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I remember that, did you send the antenna back? I remember we discussed adding more wire to the length. 73, Rob Not yet. That is on the table and may end up being what happens. They are communicating with me in a reasonable manner, so it may end up turning out well. We shall see. How long is the wire? |
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