User Panel
Posted: 8/7/2019 10:51:14 PM EDT
Searched and didn't find a recent good discussion on armor and if it is worthwhile to add to the preps.
I am woefully ignorant about the subject but have started to read some. Seems that there are many more options that there were even 10 years ago. (Looks like we did have a thread in 2011-2013 https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Body-Armor-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly/17-652256/ but nothing since then. What struck me is that, if you want to stay less than $500 for plates and a carrier, you are looking at a really heavy setup (like maybe around 20 lbs), that would probably contribute heavily to wearing you out very quickly. More expensive stuff, around 1200-1500 for a plate a carrier (maybe Hescos 3810s and a Crye JP carrier) which seems to be a nice set up, still would weigh around 10 lbs. Is this a worthwhile addition? I'm imagining yes, if you have all your other basis covered. Best to be prepared for the unknown and you can't predict what situation you may be in where armor could be useful. Thoughts? Any recommendations on what to get or where? |
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Ahh, another thread for me. Goody.
We've had TONS of threads on armor, just not in the Survival forum. Most are in GD or Tactical Gear. The VERY short version of my take on body armor as a disaster/event prep is that concealable soft armor is the best option for most scenarios, with concealable rifle armor being useful primarily in scenarios where an organized entity is the threat. The Maiden protesters in Ukraine sure could have used some rifle armor. Overt armor is mostly for when things have gone completely sideways. Something to remember is armor doesn't have to be in vest/PC form. You can have it in a bag or backpack as well. Getting to sleep here but I'll be on later tomorrow to get in depth and answer questions. |
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It depends, it is a trade off like everything else.
I carry a gun almost 24/7 when I am awake. I have level 3a soft body armor with stab in a concealable vest, I only wear that when I absolutely have to. I also have some level3+ steel plates in a slim otv I wear that when I train with my ar. I carry a handgun cause bad shit can happen to anyone anywhere. I wear body armor at work (I work in a jail) when we are dealing with inmates that we know are dangerous and for transport. If I am bringing my ar somewhere it is because I expect a gun fight. If I expect a gunfight I am bringing my armor and my friends and their guns too. |
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In for details.
I put in an order at AR500armor.com about a month ago, so still waiting. They had a sale so I snatched some up, good impulse buy I think. And just signed up for my first Carbine class, very excited! |
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I'm by no means an expert, but I recently got an interest in armor and went through dozens of threads and hundreds of posts. Eventually I found some consensus between a lot of posts. I think if you're going to buy armor, you might as well get something good. I realized that I could save a few bucks and get some heavier ceramics or even steel, but the lighter it is, the more likely I'll actually train in it and wear it. I found that III+ was sort of the sweet spot, while not an official NIJ category. III wouldn't stop m855 and IV was heavier and more expensive but unnecessary unless you're going against penetrating blacktip 30-06 or something like that.
So I got a pair of Hesco 3810's from Saber Solutions and a Crye JPC 2.0 from ebay. I got the PC from ebay despite being $50 more than direct because apparently they were backordered and it wouldn't ship for over three months. Anyway, buy once, Cry(e) once. |
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With everything going on, plus my location, I am about a blonde hair away from buying a plate carrier and some plates. Thinking a grey ghost gear mpc and some III+ plates. Tagging this thread.
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If your budget is tight, just get some cheap spall coated steel and swap plates out for ceramic as time allows. Keep the steels for a loaner or significant other or battle buddy. In fact, I prefer the steel side/rib plates (if the rig accepts side plates) because of the thinness and your arms hang more naturally. Easier to unholster a sidearm.
The weight of the vests isn’t a big deal... after 10 minutes you don’t notice it. However after 10 miles you really notice it regardless of lightweight or steel, so it doesn’t matter. I always preferred standing or laying when kitted up because sitting upright with plates is impossible to relax and get comfortable. The worst was the C130 jump seats if you didn’t have an endseat where you could manspread you were screwed. Excuse me my good sir (to the guy sitting across from you), mind if I park my knee in your crotch? Thanks. |
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I have AR500, front, back and sides and would say no it isn't practical. Too damn heavy.
...........I bought it to have it just in case, to wear for short periods. Also had a feeling there might be bans on it but that was 7 years ago and there still are no mentions of bans. |
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@YaBoyKGTho
@Patriot_man Sounds like what I have been looking at. Did you get the same 3810 cut plates for the front and back? Do you need a SAPI cut plate for the back since your arms aren't back there? Or do you use a larger plate in the back? |
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@popnfresh
What exact panels do you have? You got me worried now... I have some on order. I ended up with Lightweight 10" x 12" Level III+ ALSC plates. It says on their website they weigh 6.5 lbs each, hopefully they are truthful about the weight... |
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Quoted:
@popnfresh What exact panels do you have? You got me worried now... I have some on order. I ended up with Lightweight 10" x 12" Level III+ ALSC plates. It says on their website they weigh 6.5 lbs each, hopefully they are truthful about the weight... View Quote I'll weigh them too. |
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I say yes. I have an older IOTV soft armor set up and have worn it for a while, mostly training or when there is a tornado threat. I recently ordered a set of Level IV ceramic and good plate carrier for them. I don't have much time yet but so far so good. It's much more comfy than the IOTV and knowing that some parts of me (the important bits) are bullet proof are nice. I don't see wearing them for long periods of time and if I worked somewhere that may need shift work or 8 hours at a time I would spring for the lightest possible.
But the truth is getting my shit together in this capacity has increased my desire to lose some weight and train. Yeah, the rig weighs 17 pounds. But since I bought them I've worked out hard enough to drop 25 pounds, so I'm actually ahead of the game! . I enjoy training in it, I enjoy that work out and I've never really liked regular gym shit, so it gets me active and that alone is worth the price. Plus run around for an hour in plates and when you take them off you will be fast as shit! Armor is something you should have at the lower middle of your list. It's not magic, you can't just put it on and be good. You need to train and do the work. but if I have any inkling things are getting weird or I need to patrol a neighborhood, whatever, armor it is. I have no visions of hiking to a bug out location with this. But post storms (katrina/harvey) the neighbors come together and guard a cul de sac. I'll wear mine for my shift. Also I have young kids. I am already willing to put myself between them and harm. I will be a bullet magnet as needed to keep them safe, and plates may keep me in the fight long enough to stop the issue or at least block stuff from hitting them. worth it. Remember, armor isn't meant to make you invincible, it's about keeping you in the fight long enough to end it and get some care. |
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I have a few armor set ups. Currently armor is stupid cheap. Ar500 front and back plus carrier van be had for less than 120. Soft armor front, back and carrier can be had for 100. The new level 4 from china stuff at 4lbs a plate can be had for 100 a plate. And before someone starts that "I'm not trusting china stuff" then dont.. buy whatever you wanna buy bucko. I've seen enough vids on YouTube from channels like Mr.gunsandgear with the budget china stuff to make me say why not.
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Quoted:
@YaBoyKGTho Sounds like what I have been looking at. Did you get the same 3810 cut plates for the front and back? Do you need a SAPI cut plate for the back since your arms aren't back there? Or do you use a larger plate in the back? View Quote |
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My personal set up and opinion is to match both front and back cuts. I've had some folks ordering from me go with shooter front and SAPI rear with zero issues. However, different carriers may have issues with fitting full inch-size plates in medium plate pockets. Also with proper SAPI sizing, you should not have impingement of shoulder movement or range of motion issues.
Now what carrier you are using can also have an effect on your range of motion but the JPC is pretty much the carrier I recommend to everyone looking to get into the armor game as it allows for uninterrupted shouldering of the rifle and maximum mobility of the upper body. |
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Quoted:
@popnfresh What exact panels do you have? You got me worried now... I have some on order. I ended up with Lightweight 10" x 12" Level III+ ALSC plates. It says on their website they weigh 6.5 lbs each, hopefully they are truthful about the weight... View Quote Forgot about this after work. 2- 10x12 and 2- 6x6 weigh 24lbs total. In the Banshee plate carrier with empty mag pouches it weighs 31lbs. I lined the length of my cummerbund with a 1/16" sheet of HDPE to support the weight of the side plates. These have no markings other than a Rhino sticker. I had the cert paper work but no idea where it is. I think I got these around 2011-2012. Attached File |
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@thorn653 Forgot about this after work. 2- 10x12 and 2- 6x6 weigh 24lbs total. In the Banshee plate carrier with empty mag pouches it weighs 31lbs. I lined the length of my cummerbund with a 1/16" sheet of HDPE to support the weight of the side plates. These have no markings other than a Rhino sticker. I had the cert paper work but no idea where it is. I think I got these around 2011-2012. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/83091/2019-08-09_03_18_29_jpg-1047689.JPG View Quote That is a bit heavy... |
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Thanks for posting this. That is a bit heavy... View Quote Putting it on at 30lbs stripped isn't bad at all, but loaded it is difficult. So clearly I would load it after putting it on. |
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The police and military usually have medical assistance available to them in a relatively short period of time should they be injured.
Do you, as Joe Blow, have the same luxury? In a SHTF situation, it is doubtful. As a prepper, it is foolhardy not to mitigate any potential for injury if you have the ability. Armor is a must, not a nice-to-have, IMO. |
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Armor should be on the prep list, but it should come after a lot of other stuff in my opinion.
As mentioned it gets more discussion in the gear section. My opinion is ceramic plates are not all that expensive, level IV rating. There have been sales off and on with ebay links before and ebay coupons and what not. Carrier, you can keep it simple or go nuts. Your call. To some extent I personally see armor a little like a gas mask. In many cases it will help you get down the road. For some stuff, it won't be a perfect solution and without more care you will die. Gas mask is good for some stuff but it is not a contained breathing unit with its own oxygen supply and if you are in something that can attack your skin then gas mask is nice but your skin is going to be attacked unless you have a nice chemical suit. Stuff kinda steam rolls. My example I use with people is the hollywood shootout. The criminals made suits out of body armor and police with handguns and shotguns were finding it hard to stop the criminals. Cops got rifles and criminals got stopped. A couple rifle plates are not a suit of armor. And at the same time, a rifle plate protects some of your most important organs. |
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Quoted:
The police and military usually have medical assistance available to them in a relatively short period of time should they be injured. Do you, as Joe Blow, have the same luxury? In a SHTF situation, it is doubtful. As a prepper, it is foolhardy not to mitigate any potential for injury if you have the ability. Armor is a must, not a nice-to-have, IMO. View Quote Are you going to be wearing that 20-50lbs of kit while you’re tending to you’re chickens and garden? I don’t think anyone will be. It’s be nice to have if someone starts shooting at you but any decent shot from the tree line you’ll never see or hear coming. Just my $.02. |
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One of my set-ups is a FirstSpear Slick with one of my Surefire 60 horizontal pouches in the front. I throw a Mayflower Chest Rig over when I need to go overt/carry more. Makes it a lot easier to scale up or down, perhaps that is something that would be useful in a survival situation vs a fully decked out PC.
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In terms of weight, RMA makes a "Special Threat" IIIA+ plate thats 2.5lbs and stops M193/lead core 5.56 and 7.62x39, as well as all handgun and shotgun rounds for $275:
https://rmadefense.com/product/srt-hard-armor-plate-model-1003/ And testing done by our own Buffman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytGW5aceq1g Combined with a First Spear 'Slick' for $100: https://www.first-spear.com/the-slick-ultra-lightweight-plate-carrier So thats a ~6.5lb armor setup for $650 that will stop 80-90% of the rounds you would likely encounter in a SHTF. I would say thats probably the sweet spot protection/weight/mobility for a SHTF. |
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@murooka
Very good point. I purchased Eagle Ciras carriers and then BALCS armor panels. Decided I was not going to put the money into new pouches etc right now. So I then dropped down to eagle LVAC low vis armor carriers. What I did not know, is they are not produced anymore. Now I'm just trying to save up for PE plates that will fit in them. |
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Just DO NOT do the steel plate coated with bed liner. Save your pennies and buy once, cry once. Spending $250-$300 on a steel set is money wasted IMO. Save the other $300-$400 and buy a decent lightweight Level 3+ multicurve plate. More than 4 pounds for a 10x12 plate is going to suck hugely after more than 5 minutes pinching your trapezoids... Don't do it!
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Used armor is available for good prices. Don’t go with anything more than 7 pounds per plate.
A concealable soft vest with a plate carrier would cover you for just about everything. |
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Used armor is available for good prices. Don’t go with anything more than 7 pounds per plate. A concealable soft vest with a plate carrier would cover you for just about everything. View Quote @6Gunz Any suggestion for a good soft vest? Probably IIIA is what I've been seeing - seems you really kick up the weight going to III+ Looks like IIIA will cover up to a 44mag. |
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@CAKEPWNER @6Gunz Any suggestion for a good soft vest? Probably IIIA is what I've been seeing - seems you really kick up the weight going to III+ Looks like IIIA will cover up to a 44mag. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Used armor is available for good prices. Don't go with anything more than 7 pounds per plate. A concealable soft vest with a plate carrier would cover you for just about everything. @6Gunz Any suggestion for a good soft vest? Probably IIIA is what I've been seeing - seems you really kick up the weight going to III+ Looks like IIIA will cover up to a 44mag. NIJ IIIA test threats are 240gr .44 Mag SJHP at 1430 FPS and 125gr .357 Sig flat nose at 1470 FPS. The Bullet Safe vest also isn't NIJ Certified so they aren't required to meet those specs or any of the non-ballistic requirements of the NIJ .06 standard, though they do have tests done by OBL published and the ballistic specs do at least meet NIJ standards. It's on their "Photos" page. Another option would be something like the Mayflower LPAC, available from Life and Liberty Gear for $700 in Medium. Includes the Mayflower LPAC carrier with NIJ Certified IIIA soft armor package, all US made. It's a very nice setup. You can also get BALCS cut panels from Stealth Armor Systems and then buy whatever BALCS carrier you want, would give you a lot of flexibility. US made, but not NIJ Certified. AOTac sells Velocity Systems BALCS armor. Again, US made. |
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I’ve got my first set coming from AR500 Armor, should be here Wednesday. I ordered steel 3+ plates. I spent the first 10 years of my career carrying a 40lb steel tank SCBA and the last 25 either a 30-35lb composite or carbon fiber tanked SCBA.
I really don’t think 20lbs of plates, I’m going to notice at all. Plus these will hold up better to drops and other abuse that could damage ceramic. If weight is an issue I could see it, but it’s not to me. This is going to be much lighter than a set of turnout gear with pockets full of tools, radio, SCBA, and standpipe pack. |
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In terms of weight, RMA makes a "Special Threat" IIIA+ plate thats 2.5lbs and stops M193/lead core 5.56 and 7.62x39, as well as all handgun and shotgun rounds for $275: https://rmadefense.com/product/srt-hard-armor-plate-model-1003/ And testing done by our own Buffman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytGW5aceq1g Combined with a First Spear 'Slick' for $100: https://www.first-spear.com/the-slick-ultra-lightweight-plate-carrier So thats a ~6.5lb armor setup for $650 that will stop 80-90% of the rounds you would likely encounter in a SHTF. I would say thats probably the sweet spot protection/weight/mobility for a SHTF. View Quote Is that still frowned upon or is it finally GTG? |
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Yeah but that plate is polyethylene. Is that still frowned upon or is it finally GTG? View Quote The entire front + back plate + carrier weighs less then 1 typical Level IV plate... whether that weight savings is worth it is up to you. Personally I think in the context of a 'shtf' weight savings is a priority over M855 protection - every 1lb of armor is 1lb less or ammo/batteries/food/water/etc that you can carry. |
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Quoted:
In terms of weight, RMA makes a "Special Threat" IIIA+ plate thats 2.5lbs and stops M193/lead core 5.56 and 7.62x39, as well as all handgun and shotgun rounds for $275: https://rmadefense.com/product/srt-hard-armor-plate-model-1003/ And testing done by our own Buffman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytGW5aceq1g Combined with a First Spear 'Slick' for $100: https://www.first-spear.com/the-slick-ultra-lightweight-plate-carrier So thats a ~6.5lb armor setup for $650 that will stop 80-90% of the rounds you would likely encounter in a SHTF. I would say thats probably the sweet spot protection/weight/mobility for a SHTF. View Quote IIIA is handgun/shotgun only. Not rated for any rifle caliber. |
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I think you meant III+. IIIA is handgun/shotgun only. Not rated for any rifle caliber. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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In terms of weight, RMA makes a "Special Threat" IIIA+ plate thats 2.5lbs and stops M193/lead core 5.56 and 7.62x39, as well as all handgun and shotgun rounds for $275: https://rmadefense.com/product/srt-hard-armor-plate-model-1003/ And testing done by our own Buffman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytGW5aceq1g Combined with a First Spear 'Slick' for $100: https://www.first-spear.com/the-slick-ultra-lightweight-plate-carrier So thats a ~6.5lb armor setup for $650 that will stop 80-90% of the rounds you would likely encounter in a SHTF. I would say thats probably the sweet spot protection/weight/mobility for a SHTF. IIIA is handgun/shotgun only. Not rated for any rifle caliber. They're really terrible plates if you need to stop rifle rounds though. Low velocity on 5.56 threats, can't stop M855, can't even stop MSC 7.62x39. And they're single curve and only available in one size, generic 10x12. You'd be FAR better off saving up another ~$200 and getting a set of Hesco 3600's. |
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No, he meant IIIA+. It's a nonsense designation anyway but that's what RMA calls it. They're really terrible plates if you need to stop rifle rounds though. Low velocity on 5.56 threats, can't stop M855, can't even stop MSC 7.62x39. And they're single curve and only available in one size, generic 10x12. You'd be FAR better off saving up another ~$200 and getting a set of Hesco 3600's. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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In terms of weight, RMA makes a "Special Threat" IIIA+ plate thats 2.5lbs and stops M193/lead core 5.56 and 7.62x39, as well as all handgun and shotgun rounds for $275: https://rmadefense.com/product/srt-hard-armor-plate-model-1003/ And testing done by our own Buffman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytGW5aceq1g Combined with a First Spear 'Slick' for $100: https://www.first-spear.com/the-slick-ultra-lightweight-plate-carrier So thats a ~6.5lb armor setup for $650 that will stop 80-90% of the rounds you would likely encounter in a SHTF. I would say thats probably the sweet spot protection/weight/mobility for a SHTF. IIIA is handgun/shotgun only. Not rated for any rifle caliber. They're really terrible plates if you need to stop rifle rounds though. Low velocity on 5.56 threats, can't stop M855, can't even stop MSC 7.62x39. And they're single curve and only available in one size, generic 10x12. You'd be FAR better off saving up another ~$200 and getting a set of Hesco 3600's. That's some retarded crap alright. As if armor classifications don't already confuse people: Anything with an 'a' has always been handgun/shotgun/low velocity only, eg. iia, iiia. Rifle rated plates were either Class iii or iv, with iii+ not being an official designation, but intended by manufacturers to indicate something slightly higher than iii (where iii might not stop both M193 and M855, and iii+ supposedly will). Calling something iiia+ is asinine, as following the general nomenclature, this would describe something slightly higher than iiia (i.e. iiia+ might perhaps stop the higher PCC velocities that iiia wouldn't stop). RMA claims that this iiia+ will stop multiple hits from M193 and 7.62x39 though. |
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No, he meant IIIA+. It's a nonsense designation anyway but that's what RMA calls it. They're really terrible plates if you need to stop rifle rounds though. Low velocity on 5.56 threats, can't stop M855, can't even stop MSC 7.62x39. And they're single curve and only available in one size, generic 10x12. You'd be FAR better off saving up another ~$200 and getting a set of Hesco 3600's. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
No, he meant IIIA+. It's a nonsense designation anyway but that's what RMA calls it. They're really terrible plates if you need to stop rifle rounds though. Low velocity on 5.56 threats, can't stop M855, can't even stop MSC 7.62x39. And they're single curve and only available in one size, generic 10x12. You'd be FAR better off saving up another ~$200 and getting a set of Hesco 3600's. I wonder if it would stop M855 with a IIIA backing? If so, that could be a very attractive setup to wear over soft armor. Quoted:
Just checked out their site; I stand corrected. That's some retarded crap alright. As if armor classifications don't already confuse people: Anything with an 'a' has always been handgun/shotgun/low velocity only, eg. iia, iiia. Rifle rated plates were either Class iii or iv, with iii+ not being an official designation, but intended by manufacturers to indicate something slightly higher than iii (where iii might not stop both M193 and M855, and iii+ supposedly will). Calling something iiia+ is asinine, as following the general nomenclature, this would describe something slightly higher than iiia (i.e. iiia+ might perhaps stop the higher PCC velocities that iiia wouldn't stop). RMA claims that this iiia+ will stop multiple hits from M193 and 7.62x39 though. |
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I kind of understand the IIIA+ designation now. It sucks that they can't stop M855 since it's the most common rifle round out there these days, but it's pretty impressive that a 2 pound plate can stop any rifle rounds at all. I wonder if it would stop M855 with a IIIA backing? If so, that could be a very attractive setup to wear over soft armor. It makes a little sense to me now. It's better than IIIA, but it's not quite III. It just sounds stupid because traditionally everything with an A in it has been assumed to be soft armor. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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No, he meant IIIA+. It's a nonsense designation anyway but that's what RMA calls it. They're really terrible plates if you need to stop rifle rounds though. Low velocity on 5.56 threats, can't stop M855, can't even stop MSC 7.62x39. And they're single curve and only available in one size, generic 10x12. You'd be FAR better off saving up another ~$200 and getting a set of Hesco 3600's. I wonder if it would stop M855 with a IIIA backing? If so, that could be a very attractive setup to wear over soft armor. Quoted:
Just checked out their site; I stand corrected. That's some retarded crap alright. As if armor classifications don't already confuse people: Anything with an 'a' has always been handgun/shotgun/low velocity only, eg. iia, iiia. Rifle rated plates were either Class iii or iv, with iii+ not being an official designation, but intended by manufacturers to indicate something slightly higher than iii (where iii might not stop both M193 and M855, and iii+ supposedly will). Calling something iiia+ is asinine, as following the general nomenclature, this would describe something slightly higher than iiia (i.e. iiia+ might perhaps stop the higher PCC velocities that iiia wouldn't stop). RMA claims that this iiia+ will stop multiple hits from M193 and 7.62x39 though. |
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For shoppers:
The best deal on plates, currently available Battle Steel Lvl IV Ceramic/UHMWPE hybrid 5.5 lbs 0.8" thick 10"x12" multicurve for $89.99/ea https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iv-10x12-ballistic-plates-only-5-5-lbs-80-thick/ Battle Steel Lvl IV test |
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For shoppers: The best deal on plates, currently available Battle Steel Lvl IV Ceramic/UHMWPE hybrid 5.5 lbs 0.8" thick 10"x12" multicurve for $89.99/ea https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iv-10x12-ballistic-plates-only-5-5-lbs-80-thick/ Battle Steel Lvl IV test View Quote |
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That is a really impressive price. It's too bad they only come in 10x12 since there are so few plate carriers that will take them. They would be okay in a medium sapi bag, but since they're so thin there's going to be a lot of slop. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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For shoppers: The best deal on plates, currently available Battle Steel Lvl IV Ceramic/UHMWPE hybrid 5.5 lbs 0.8" thick 10"x12" multicurve for $89.99/ea https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iv-10x12-ballistic-plates-only-5-5-lbs-80-thick/ Battle Steel Lvl IV test |
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Anyone ordered any of these? Is Botach good to go nowadays? Been many years since I've ordered from them. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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For shoppers: The best deal on plates, currently available Battle Steel Lvl IV Ceramic/UHMWPE hybrid 5.5 lbs 0.8" thick 10"x12" multicurve for $89.99/ea https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iv-10x12-ballistic-plates-only-5-5-lbs-80-thick/ Battle Steel Lvl IV test |
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That is a really impressive price. It's too bad they only come in 10x12 since there are so few plate carriers that will take them. They would be okay in a medium sapi bag, but since they're so thin there's going to be a lot of slop. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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For shoppers: The best deal on plates, currently available Battle Steel Lvl IV Ceramic/UHMWPE hybrid 5.5 lbs 0.8" thick 10"x12" multicurve for $89.99/ea https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iv-10x12-ballistic-plates-only-5-5-lbs-80-thick/ Battle Steel Lvl IV test |
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Searched and didn't find a recent good discussion on armor and if it is worthwhile to add to the preps. I am woefully ignorant about the subject but have started to read some. Seems that there are many more options that there were even 10 years ago. (Looks like we did have a thread in 2011-2013 https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Body-Armor-The-Good-The-Bad-and-The-Ugly/17-652256/ but nothing since then. What struck me is that, if you want to stay less than $500 for plates and a carrier, you are looking at a really heavy setup (like maybe around 20 lbs), that would probably contribute heavily to wearing you out very quickly. More expensive stuff, around 1200-1500 for a plate a carrier (maybe Hescos 3810s and a Crye JP carrier) which seems to be a nice set up, still would weigh around 10 lbs. Is this a worthwhile addition? I'm imagining yes, if you have all your other basis covered. Best to be prepared for the unknown and you can't predict what situation you may be in where armor could be useful. Thoughts? Any recommendations on what to get or where? View Quote I think that unless you have virtually all of your bases covered that your money is better spent elsewhere. Like on something like night vision so you can move freely at night and not have to get in gunfights. Those plates cover parts of your body that are showstoppers if you get hit. Great idea, you probably won’t die before you get medical help. Here is the thing: if society has collapsed to the point you can go about your daily activity without body armor, you will still bleed out from a leg, neck, head, arm foot etc, wound or die in pain of gangrene because no medical care will be available to you in those circumstances anyway. |
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Quoted:
That is a really impressive price. It's too bad they only come in 10x12 since there are so few plate carriers that will take them. They would be okay in a medium sapi bag, but since they're so thin there's going to be a lot of slop. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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For shoppers: The best deal on plates, currently available Battle Steel Lvl IV Ceramic/UHMWPE hybrid 5.5 lbs 0.8" thick 10"x12" multicurve for $89.99/ea https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iv-10x12-ballistic-plates-only-5-5-lbs-80-thick/ Battle Steel Lvl IV test Battle Steel Level III+ Armor Plates: Can Budget Lightweight Armor Stop M855? They seem to work, and the price is dang good. Gonna be a tough choice between these and RMA III+. |
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Jeez, juat started to look at plates. From what I've found in old threads, looks like they might be Chinese made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPEKKuqJsYI They seem to work, and the price is dang good. Gonna be a tough choice between these and RMA III+. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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For shoppers: The best deal on plates, currently available Battle Steel Lvl IV Ceramic/UHMWPE hybrid 5.5 lbs 0.8" thick 10"x12" multicurve for $89.99/ea https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iv-10x12-ballistic-plates-only-5-5-lbs-80-thick/ Battle Steel Lvl IV test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPEKKuqJsYI They seem to work, and the price is dang good. Gonna be a tough choice between these and RMA III+. Just for reference, I'll post here what I've posted about those plates in the past: There are a great deal of things that YouTube shoots alone can't reveal, not to mention the problems associated with Chinese manufacturing.
Sioux Manufacturing was contracted by the DoD to weave Kevlar for the PASGT helmet. It was discovered they were shorting the picks in the weave to save a buck. This shorting lead to a measurable decrease in ballistic integrity. ArmorSource sub-contracted their PASGT assembly to UNICOR. Their manufacturing supervisors were having prisoners cut and assemble material and helmets with hand made tools, dissembling old helmets and reusing the material, and other things like that. Those things happened in the US with US based companies, those companies being contracted by the US Government. What do you think can happen in China? Furthermore there are other issues to consider besides just whether or not the plate simply stops the projectile from penetrating. This is what I posted last time in regards to the Botach plates: Quoted:
I can't say a whole lot about the plate specifically without knowing more about them. I'll say that they appear to use a monolithic silicon carbide strike face, typical of Chinese made armor. Where they're going to be cutting corners to get price down is likely in both materials and construction. Ceramic purity is probably lower than what you'd get with a US manufacturer, the polyethylene will be weaker and not as effective as a top end brand like Dyneema, the adhesives used may be more subject to degradation over time, etc. A lot of what you're paying for though with an established US manufacturer is quality control and consistency, not to mention little things like actually having ballistic lab reports available. Botach doesn't even state measured BFS, all they state about the plate is a garbled description of multi hit capability. Nothing about BFS readings, impact velocity, shot spacing, etc. Do the plates work? Sure. Do they work the way you see in GunsNGears video consistently? Don't know. Do they meet NIJ BFS standards? Don't know. If they do, for how many hits after the first can it meet the BFS standard? Don't know. Is energy transfer at an acceptable level? Don't know. The problem with the last point about energy transfer is that this is something even NIJ standards don't cover. It's not just total depth of deformation, the BFS reading, that matters. It's the rate at which that deformation occurs. I can take my fist and slowly push my gut in a couple inches without any pain or damage. Now if I tried deforming my gut to the same depth in a few milliseconds I'd be hurting. This brings me back to the point about inferior Chinese polyethylene, the backing you're depending on to catch the bullet remnants, dissipate the remainder of the energy, and do so with minimal BFD. Ensuring efficient handling of kinetic energy during an impact with a rifle projectile is critical. With a US manufacturer using something like Spectra or Dyneema you have a known quantity, certain quality controls in place to ensure material consistency, and a known level of energy absorption/dissipation capability. You have none of that with these mystery meat Chinese plates. Ballistic Spectra and Dyneema have been engineered to maximize energy absorption and rapid energy transfer throughout the material, not to mention optimizing tensile strength. I'll stop there because this is turning into a book but my point is there's a reason US made plates cost more. Bottom line - the plates appear to stop what they say they stop. The problem is we don't know any more than that and there's more to armor than just a brand new plate stopping the projectile from penetrating. |
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They are undoubtedly so. Just for reference, I'll post here what I've posted about those plates in the past: All that said, but them if you want. Just be aware of the above. My personal take is I would never use a set if something better is available. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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For shoppers: The best deal on plates, currently available Battle Steel Lvl IV Ceramic/UHMWPE hybrid 5.5 lbs 0.8" thick 10"x12" multicurve for $89.99/ea https://www.botach.com/battle-steel-level-iv-10x12-ballistic-plates-only-5-5-lbs-80-thick/ Battle Steel Lvl IV test https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPEKKuqJsYI They seem to work, and the price is dang good. Gonna be a tough choice between these and RMA III+. Just for reference, I'll post here what I've posted about those plates in the past: There are a great deal of things that YouTube shoots alone can't reveal, not to mention the problems associated with Chinese manufacturing.
Sioux Manufacturing was contracted by the DoD to weave Kevlar for the PASGT helmet. It was discovered they were shorting the picks in the weave to save a buck. This shorting lead to a measurable decrease in ballistic integrity. ArmorSource sub-contracted their PASGT assembly to UNICOR. Their manufacturing supervisors were having prisoners cut and assemble material and helmets with hand made tools, dissembling old helmets and reusing the material, and other things like that. Those things happened in the US with US based companies, those companies being contracted by the US Government. What do you think can happen in China? Furthermore there are other issues to consider besides just whether or not the plate simply stops the projectile from penetrating. This is what I posted last time in regards to the Botach plates: Quoted:
I can't say a whole lot about the plate specifically without knowing more about them. I'll say that they appear to use a monolithic silicon carbide strike face, typical of Chinese made armor. Where they're going to be cutting corners to get price down is likely in both materials and construction. Ceramic purity is probably lower than what you'd get with a US manufacturer, the polyethylene will be weaker and not as effective as a top end brand like Dyneema, the adhesives used may be more subject to degradation over time, etc. A lot of what you're paying for though with an established US manufacturer is quality control and consistency, not to mention little things like actually having ballistic lab reports available. Botach doesn't even state measured BFS, all they state about the plate is a garbled description of multi hit capability. Nothing about BFS readings, impact velocity, shot spacing, etc. Do the plates work? Sure. Do they work the way you see in GunsNGears video consistently? Don't know. Do they meet NIJ BFS standards? Don't know. If they do, for how many hits after the first can it meet the BFS standard? Don't know. Is energy transfer at an acceptable level? Don't know. The problem with the last point about energy transfer is that this is something even NIJ standards don't cover. It's not just total depth of deformation, the BFS reading, that matters. It's the rate at which that deformation occurs. I can take my fist and slowly push my gut in a couple inches without any pain or damage. Now if I tried deforming my gut to the same depth in a few milliseconds I'd be hurting. This brings me back to the point about inferior Chinese polyethylene, the backing you're depending on to catch the bullet remnants, dissipate the remainder of the energy, and do so with minimal BFD. Ensuring efficient handling of kinetic energy during an impact with a rifle projectile is critical. With a US manufacturer using something like Spectra or Dyneema you have a known quantity, certain quality controls in place to ensure material consistency, and a known level of energy absorption/dissipation capability. You have none of that with these mystery meat Chinese plates. Ballistic Spectra and Dyneema have been engineered to maximize energy absorption and rapid energy transfer throughout the material, not to mention optimizing tensile strength. I'll stop there because this is turning into a book but my point is there's a reason US made plates cost more. Bottom line - the plates appear to stop what they say they stop. The problem is we don't know any more than that and there's more to armor than just a brand new plate stopping the projectile from penetrating. |
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No, he meant IIIA+. It's a nonsense designation anyway but that's what RMA calls it. They're really terrible plates if you need to stop rifle rounds though. Low velocity on 5.56 threats, can't stop M855, can't even stop MSC 7.62x39. And they're single curve and only available in one size, generic 10x12. You'd be FAR better off saving up another ~$200 and getting a set of Hesco 3600's. View Quote The RMA stops M193 @ 3192fps, 7.62x39 lead core (all thats available in the US in the last 20 years),all lead/copper .223/5.56 defensive ammo, and all handgun and shotgun projectiles. It doesn't stop M855, but the entire set + carrier weighs 6.5lbs, and costs $650. Hesco 3600's are solid, but total cost + first spear slick would be $1056, while also being 0.3" thicker front and back, making them less concealable then the 0.8" RMA's. Whether the increase in cost and thickness is worth it to stop M855 is up to the user, but the RMA is a compelling option for those looking for an ultralight, affordable armor that covers 80%+ threats. I do wish it was multi curve/ available in other sizes though. |
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Quoted: Not really. The RMA stops M193 @ 3192fps, 7.62x39 lead core (all thats available in the US in the last 20 years),all lead/copper .223/5.56 defensive ammo, and all handgun and shotgun projectiles. It doesn't stop M855, but the entire set + carrier weighs 6.5lbs, and costs $650. Hesco 3600's are solid, but total cost + first spear slick would be $1056, while also being 0.3" thicker front and back, making them less concealable then the 0.8" RMA's. Whether the increase in cost and thickness is worth it to stop M855 is up to the user, but the RMA is a compelling option for those looking for an ultralight, affordable armor that covers 80%+ threats. I do wish it was multi curve/ available in other sizes though. View Quote Considering medium SAPI plates weigh less than five pounds with their backers and can be found for 200 a set, I don't see the appeal of any plates that can't handle M855. Especially since the SAPIs can be easily inspected with a tap test to check for delamination. If they're not too far out of date and pass the tap and crunch tests I would probably trust them more than any brand new polyethylene armor out there, especially since we don't how polyethylene holds up over time and how heat affects it. |
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If your budget is tight, just get some cheap spall coated steel and swap plates out for ceramic as time allows. Keep the steels for a loaner or significant other or battle buddy. In fact, I prefer the steel side/rib plates (if the rig accepts side plates) because of the thinness and your arms hang more naturally. Easier to unholster a sidearm. The weight of the vests isn’t a big deal... after 10 minutes you don’t notice it. However after 10 miles you really notice it regardless of lightweight or steel, so it doesn’t matter. I always preferred standing or laying when kitted up because sitting upright with plates is impossible to relax and get comfortable. The worst was the C130 jump seats if you didn’t have an endseat where you could manspread you were screwed. Excuse me my good sir (to the guy sitting across from you), mind if I park my knee in your crotch? Thanks. View Quote |
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