You have a toughy on your hands.

GMRS is basically short range radios suited as a squad radio only.  In that regard, they work exceptionally well, however the range is limited to line of sight.  Their strength is they are very low cost, extremely simple to use, and minimal restrictions/licenses.  Technically the GMRS channels (most radios also have FRS channels which require no license) require a $75 license which is only a fee, however due to the sheer numbers enforcement of this is nil.  The license is a family license.

Ham radios on the otherhand come much closer to doing the job you want but are expensive, require more technical knowledge to operate, and a license that you have take a test.  These licenses are enforced.  Though not problem for a few people when you start talking a number of people, the cost, learning curve, and time/effort to get the license a hurdle.  The license is an individual license.  

Another option is the CB (Citizen Band) radio which really isn't a clear signal but you can have base stations and external antennas.  Boosting these can really put out some distance,  however that is illegal and is also enforced.  Their range isn't for the most part much better than GMRS but they are relatively inexpensive. Still at legal power limits and good antenna they can out reach a handheld GMRS and you can increase that range by using a code key who's high frequency sound carries farther and penetrates cross talk.  This requires no license.  

Another radio type available to the public seldom mentioned on this forum is the Marine  Band radio.  A base unit with whip antenna can reach ranges to 25 miles, however the handhelds are limited in range to about 5-10 miles.  Though not licensed any more, there is a protocol and the hailing channel/emerency channel monitored as well as certain other channels reserved for commerical use etc.

I would suggest you begin you quest by studying radios with emphasis on their strengths and weaknesses, then redefine your goal around what you can obtain or reasonably impliment.

Tj  

Quoted: Quoted: If someone only had a potential need for a couple of the cheaper, "16-18 mile" two way radios sets, which one would be recommended? Also, are the ones bought in a set only good for talking to each other, or could help be summoned from close by? I'm sorry, I don't know anything about this stuff, or the acronyms, or the licensing, but would like *something* along these lines. Is there a "cheap-ass two way radio set" primer/FAQ somewhere? I don't know about "cheap-ass", but popularwireless.com is a good place to learn just about everything there is about FRS and GMRS radios. They have a FAQ here... www.popularwireless.com/gmrsfaqa.html

That's an excellent read Monkeyman!

Quoted: Quoted: GMRS is basically short range radios suited as a squad radio only.  In that regard, they work exceptionally well, however the range is limited to line of sight.  Their strength is they are very low cost, extremely simple to use, and minimal restrictions/licenses.  Technically the GMRS channels (most radios also have FRS channels which require no license) require a $75 license which is only a fee, however due to the sheer numbers enforcement of this is nil.  The license is a family license. This pretty much sums up my decision. Since I'm the kind that likes to be legal, I can't see justifying the outrageous license fee for GMRS. I'm going the MURS route myself. You can do well with the GMRS range if you can find a repeater in your area but they're few and far between. I think we actually have one in town, though.

Yeah, when I did my first post it was kind of hard to decide whether to mention MURS, but I'll take a very general stab at it.

Spurred primarily by the wireless home intercom market (baby monitors and such) the government offered a new narrow band license free citizen band.  Up until then the intercoms were held to 1/4 watt.  In 2000, that 1/4 watt was opened up to 2 watts these frequencies, 151.820 MHz * 151.880 MHz * 151.940 MHz * 154.570 MHz * 154.600 MHz with no license and better yet the antenna restriction was dropped. (special note here to those into scanners how close those channels are to what emergency services use)

This spurred a new citizen radio market and as time has passed more selections in two way radios.

MURS is probably most often compared to GMRS since stand alone handheld units are very similar in performance, however that is not a complete picture by a long shot for either type of radio.

Most of the GMRS radios you buy at Radio Shack/Walmart/Gander Mountain etc. are designed to not be nuisance to commercial GMRS via repeater use by their short antennas.  Though licenses are mentioned in small print, nobody really expects the soccer mom/hunter to buy one.  With the license you can actually get a GMRS base station and then mount external antennas legally expanding the range.  Though in my first right up I mentioned GMRS license are not enforced, they are with expanded range.  This bascially gets you enough range to hit the repeaters. (I'm being way over simplistic here but I hope you get the point.)

Now you have MURS which is 2 Watts usually 5 channels up to 8 (last three often programmed to receive weather) and you can attach antennas to yoru hand helds.  These antennas many of them like the Firestick aren't that large or bulky but bascially when added make the little handhelds perform like it has 7.8 watts instead of 2 watts.  Since the service is relatively new, another advantage is not alot of existing traffic like a FRS/GMRS say at an amusement park, playground, or flea market. MURS has no license thus no restrictions.

Though up until recently radio availability has been pretty scarce and expensive, this isn't the case now as more companies enter into the market.  I was recently looking at a 5 channel Kenwood for $49 a radio and the short 3' firesticks are around $25.  

Alrighty then, why MURS over GMRS or vice versa if they are so similar?

I'll take my best shot at it.  GMRS tends to do better going through buildings while MURS tends to do better going over hills.  Ranges of base handhelds are very similar.

Now that being said, depending on what radio you buy of each type then they can be modified, antennas being the number one thing, however some base or mobile GMRS radios can be 10-50 watts (better have you license for these babies).  A better GMRS can use repeaters and depending on availability in your area greatly increase your range with the typical number thrown out there 20 miles.  

Now the MURS modifying the antenna the usual number is 10 miles with of course that antenna outside not inside a structure.  Base station MURS which can employ even longer antennas can reach station to station about 20 miles and not repeater dependent.

How does this all apply to survival and not just a radio hobby?

The obvious uses for a short range walkie talkie is keeping in contact short distances.  In this the FRS, GMRS, and MURS all do well.  I kind of think of it as still within my neighborhood kind of thing or in combat terms close enough you may get there by foot in time to help someone.

At moderate distances (think of it as down the road a little or I could get to someone by car in time to help someone) then the GMRS and MURS are definately the better radios with the GMRS a tad better in town and the MURS better in the boonies.  The GMRS and MURS are better mobile options than say CB which has to deal with atmospherics and of course channel crowding.  There seems to always be some illegal broadcaster on CB with his 100 watt linier amplifier blowing everyone away basically jamming which is illegal as hell, but they do it.  Mobile to Mobile (car to car) is good for convoying or meeting up in a crisis when cell phone channels will all be jammed with "You OK calls."

Some people may see the MURS need for an external antenna as a weakness compared to the GMRS in mobile applications but those of us that were old CB people shouldn't for that external antenna at the same given wattage gives the MURS a distinct edge over the GMRS in range.  Magnetic Firesticks are as easy to hook up to a MURS as the old CB magnetic antennas.  

For most of us in most applications, GMRS standard units work fine for field use and convoy.  Though CB actually bends over hills better than both GMRS and MURS, the signal quality is very poor and channels crowded in comparrison.  

Without upgrading the GMRS with a license and expensive equipment that would get you into the HAM cost range so why not HAM, I give the MURS the edge in linking up by Mobile.  Linking up is usually a predermined meeting point then reaching out by radio as you near it.  

If these radios do all this then why buy a HAM?

That's really a simple answer.  HAM is your long-range radio.  I won't go into specfics here or I will lose the readers but with the right license, radio, antenna, there are very few limitations to range. They can use repeaters and there are more of them than GMRS.  

To put this in simple military terms, the GMRS/MURS are squad radios basically for multiple communications within short distance.  The HAM is your company radio that can reach out to contact batallion or division.    In civilian terms, GMRS/MURS for around your neighborhood/small town and HAM town to town.

Now for another general statement, the advantage of the short range radio is not being heard over a long distance which increases privacy.  The advantage of the longrange radio is being heard over longdistances.  

Both play an equal but different role in survival planning.

Oh well sorry I got off on a radio tangent but the MURS has been on my keep an eye on list for quite sometime and is finally getting priced now to where its very affordable.

Tj

Quoted: Note I am a ham, and always recommend ham radio. Having said that, I do use my gmrs radio's all the time as my kids don't have their ham licenses (yet) but my gmrs licence covers the whole family. If you want to use an external antenna, you will probably have to go ahead an look at commercial equipment (vs bubble pack/consumer radios).  That would mean that you are giving up the main advantage of 'cheap' radios.  The reason is that those consumer radios pretty much always include the FRS frequencies which are restricted from the use of external antennas. Yes you would increase the radio range very much by using an external antenna with more gain.  Especially if you can get it up on a roof or other structure. I've used my bubblepack gmrs radios in the desert canyons around Las Vegas with no problem, but it was over a range of only a few hundred meters.   In a shtf situation, I would only 'rely' on those gmrs for a max of those few hundred meters.   from Survival Communications Primer GMRS requires a $80 license that covers you and all your extended family. It is a set of channelized frequencies in the UHF band utilizing FM, a few hertz above the UHF 440 band. There are GMRS repeater systems, but these are usually private and do no allow public access. They are allowed up to 50 watts and detachable antennae; however these are not common in consumer products. The type of radios you can get at a department or electronics store is typically in the 1-4 watt range with fixed antennas in the form of HT’s. Commercial mobile and base stations are available at greater cost.

You have the classic example of what I was referring to.  

You're using GMRS as your squad (in this case femily radio) and your ham as your long-distance radio.

Tj

The SCCX off-road club uses GRMS, CB, and amateur radio to communicate with. We often get a dozen or more trucks out in the desert strung out over several miles at times. There will be a trail leader, navigator (the guy with the computer topo GPS), and an amateur radio operator in the first three trucks. At the rear we put another amateur radio operator. Trip before last that was me.

We had a guy in the number 9 truck that was a bit slower than the rest and he ended up splitting the group into two groups. The first group got miles ahead of the second and we soon found ourselves out of GRMS radio contact and then CB contact. Amateur radio was a piece of cake - full quieting - the receiver's meter pegged at the maximum using 50-60 watts worth of power and 4-6 dB worth of antenna. Crystal clear perfection - better than a cell phone! The front group got together and found where the #9 truck had taken the wrong trail and we back tracked to find the rest of the group.

GRMS across a dead nutz flat open desert without a piece of metal in the entire valley except fourteen trucks and a few hundred pounds of lost gold nuggets gets a good mile to two miles. CB radio is much better than that and will do four or five but that takes good terrain and antennas. With a ham radio you're talking 50 to 65 watts and very good quality antennas with some good gain - as the smaller wavelenghts need smaller antennas to get going. That 50 watt radio with a 6 dB top-of-the-line antenna is like it's transmitting 200 watts worth of power.

Ham is the only way to get 18 miles - and even then it's terrain dependent. Do a google search for Radio Horizon Calculator. Two guys standing with billion watt transmitters using a VHF/UHF radio will only be able to talk a couple of handfuls of miles because the darn earth is round.

Allow me to say thanks to our Ham operators in this thread.  This is the type unbiased help that I've been looking for and definately a major step in the right direction for a separate communications forum.  

Thanks guys.

Tj

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: was thinking about just using my motorola frs/grma radios but i have an icom IC-V8 i can program with the murs, so that opens up a whole new world for comms. There's that legal snag though. If it's the rig I'm thinking of, it can only legally TX in the ham bands. icom states that there rigs "may be able to" transmit out of ban but they wont guarantee it. its made to cover 138-174mhz its just not made to transmit on all of them.

Still a nice little radio though and exceptionally priced.  That will probably be my choice for a two meter radio.

Yes, Tjs in the market for a two meter radio.

Tj