Typical Gun = Bad Guy "knee-jerk" reaction MOST LE Officer have.

From another stand point why would two soldier think a uniform local police officer appeared on a public road as "actors"?

Another question why aern't they training in a more controlled enviorment?

The report is coming up on FOX news right now...

Now that we see the Deputy tried to use "less" lethal means to stop them,"pepper spray", the story takes a little different turn.

It's a clusterf*** situation...they were playing, he was not. Mistaken identities and miscommunication. The question will not be "imminent" danger..but, will it be a "justifiable" use of lethal, resulting in a death. Probably yes...but, his law enforcement life will probably be over because of the incident. How would you like to be employed, in same town where the slain SF's buddies live? Or will the next time he's confronted with "real" bad guys, how will he react?

I bet the Deputy feels absolutely terrible and remorseful...but, if he comes out and says, "I was justified and THEY should have known better,I'd do it again,blah,blah". Then we will have a real problem.

Other than that...it was a bad accident. Move along, nothing else to see right now.

I feel sorry for both parties right now,
[b][blue]NAKED[/blue][/b]

I vote with the LE on this one. If these guys were SF trainees, they alledgedly have a higher than room temp IQ. They should've well known that a cop doesn't dick around on a traffic stop. Felony Stupid was paid for with a death penality in this case. No sympathy for the idiots on my behalf.

Bob, with such a callous and completely ignorant statement you made, I was almost thinking of letting someone else set you straight, but I decided to instead.  

First of all, they weren't "playing around" with the cop, they were involved in a training simulation that places them behind enemy lines with foreign agents approaching them with situations they must deal with.  

Your statement that they shouldn't dick around with a traffic cop on a stop obviously shows that you didn't read the article or the previously posted thread to better educate yourself on what actually happened.  

I'll assume that your lack of knowledge lead to the incredibly stupid statement that there was  I atleast pray you weren't dumb enough to believe that these men deserved to be gunned down while in an official training sim.

It is obvious that the LEO used horrible judgment when he shot the 1st soldier. What would you do if your buddy had just been unjustifiably shot by a LEO ?

In his own admission, the rifle was disassembled aka in pieces aka broken down. Any idiot knows you cannot shoot anybody with a disassembled rifle. So, when he fired that first shot, he was not justified. Neither was he justified in killing the 2nd soldier for simply coming at him.

It is obvious the officer unjustifiably used deadly force. At close range it wouldn't have been hard for a trained cop to incapacitate the guys. Instead he shot to kill. Also, didn't he know what an M16 is ? He sees 2 guys in a truck with a DISASSEMBLED M16. He then shoots one when he touches the disassembled and unusable gun.

I guess I am the only one on the side of the slain SF soldiers. The officer most likely didn't act in cold blood. But, his decision was not justified and therefore, he should fired immediately.

They didn't inform the SO becuase they figured it was unneccessary. That means that either the SO was out of juristdiction, the sherrif was in the loop and didn't inform his deputies, or there was some other reason they didn't inform the office.

The biggest question is how a local officer who lived there for many years and was an officer for many years could not have known about this. If this event happened so often, how could he not have known ? Something's fishy.

This is very unfortunate and I feel for all involved. That being said I have to say that the broken down M-16 is almost irrelevant. Could the Deputy have known that there was not another weapon in the bag? And the last time I checked 3 men in a rural area of the county attempting to disarm the Deputy equals an assault on the LEO. Disparity of force(outnumbered) is most certainly a justifiable reason to use deadly force. How many of you would not resort to using deadly force if you were outnumbered 3-1 and being assaulted, you had already attempted to use less than leathal force, it did not work, and you had no back up?

The LEO did what he was trained to do and the SF trainees did what they were trained to do.  They both tried to take command of the situation and the one with the firearm won.

It's an unfortunate situation but the SF screwed up and they paid the price for it big time. They should have stayed on the porch.

What kind of scenerio puts the SF in a role playing situation where they dress up in civilian clothes and when they get stopped, every Deputy is suppose to automatically know who the phuck these Joe's are suppose to be. The Deputy then spots a weapon in the duffel bag followed by the Darwin candidates trying to disarm the Deputy.

Get real. The story has the smell of manure to it. I don't buy it.
The story should read... "Killed in a training exercise"....."AGAIN!"  Does that phrase sound familiar to anyone else yet? It got old pretty darn quick for me. How many others have been killed as a result of these so called training exercises? Seems like nobody from the U.S. gets killed in combat anymore. You figure it out Joe.

I vote for the cop on this one. In his eyes, at that moment he had a split second decision to make, and it involved his own life. He reacted as trained, and should not be held accountable for it.

The Army screwed up, they should have made sure that all local law enforcement was VERY well informed before they sent people running around with guns in the community. It doesnt matter if it was a "well known" exercise or not. Whoever was in charge of that exercise, and did not bother to inform the LEO's is the one who should be held accountable!

well lets get one thing straight first, and that is that these soldiers might have made a bad call; but they DID NOT DESERVE TO DIE FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!.

Robin sage is the final stage of special forces training and has been going on is a very very similar way ever since the days of vietnam. Robin sage is the largest countinious military operation. this excercise takes place in a fictionally country called pineland which is in actuallity made up of several counties of north carolina. sf trainies are inserted into simulated denied territory, and are expected to train advise, and assist a local resistance group. a very large portion of the local poplulation, volunteer as actors. this group is known as the pineland auxillary, and sometimes provide aid and assistance to sf trainies. my guess is the civi in which they were found with was a member of the pinland auxillary. in many cases in order to blend in with the local population better the trainies dress in civis. the opfor for this excercise consist of partly sf soldiers and partly of members of the 82 airborne. these soldiers weren't up to anything fishy it was just a horrible failure to communicate, and any attempt to blame the soldiers that were killed for their role in this tragity will just serve to dishonor their memorie, and what they were trying to do for our country. the reason why this excersise is not run on a military base like most military training ops is because #1 it is a very large operation and requires a lot of space. #2 because if you ever go down to camp mckall or ft bragg you will no doubt notice all the endangered species, signs every where.

sorry if I made any typos because I am sure there are some in a paragraph this long.

Here's what I heard.  Three guys driving around acting suspiciously near an army base (after a recent anthrax scare.)  Suspiciously = up and down some remote road several times with a guy in the open bed looking hard for something even though the weather's really bad.  All in the magic 18-40 male age group.  Cop (alone) pulls them over to see what's up.  Notices an assault rifle of some kind in the bag.  Two fellows then do the exact tactic that left a fellow cop dead a few years ago.  One distracts the cop while the other goes for the rifle.  At no time were ID's exchanged or statements that they're on a training excersize made.  Cop maces perp 1, and is then attacked by perp 2.  after fending off perp 2 perp one get's back up and attacks.  Cop shoots perp 1. and then perp 2.  

Yea, it's a godawful tragedy.  nobody can say different, but tell me, what would you have done?  I doubt I would have the restraint and clarity of mind to have tried the mace first.  

I personally think the cop absolutely deserves time off with pay.  I'd be seriously traumatized too when I finally realized what the hell happened.  

Sounds to me like a case of testosterone poisoning and I'm very very sad to see that it happened like this.  There was a pretty serious communication breakdown here somewhere, and the person least to blame is the cop who now has to live the rest of his life knowing he killed 1 (2?) of America's finest by doing what he damn well should have done.  By doing what anyone would have done.

Now, when more details come out, maybe I'll change my tune.

THE SF THOUGHT THE COP WAS IN THE TRAINING EXERCISE, THUS THEY ACTED THE WAY THEY WOULD IN A REAL SITUATION.  YOU PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW A LOT MORE ABOUT THIS TRAINING EXERCISE BEFORE YOU THINK THE SF MEN WERE IN THE WRONG OR WERE STUPID FOR TAKING THE ACTIONS THEY DID.  THIS WAS WHAT THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO.  READ THIS LINK THOROUGHLY AND THEN DRAW YOUR CONCLUSIONS.  THE SF WERE IN THE RIGHT AND I BELIEVE THAT THE COP OVERREACTED, AS WELL AS LIED ABOUT NEVER HEARING ABOUT THIS EXERCISE TAKING PLACE IN HIS JURISDICTION.  WHAT SMELLS FISHY IS THE COP'S TALE.

[url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?ID=96012[/url]

[fixed broken quote code - Paul]

   I see no winners in this situation. Just people and families who will have to deal with an unfortunate situation for the rest of their life.
   In this struggle for command of the situation as you described. I think it should be noted that the LEO thought he was in a real life situation. The trainees were still in their training mode.
   If it was a real life, full speed situation for both sides. I think there would be a job opening at the Sheriff's Office.

   Before you LEO's get your Scooby Doo's in a wad. I think the deputy acted like any normal human being would put in that situation. I know I would have done the same thing. If people are wondering why something like this has not happened before. I have an answer for you to think about. That LEO would not have reacted the way he did had it happened before 9/11. With all the alerts we have been put on to watch around us for strange behavior and expect the unexpected. This was an accident waiting to happen......
     The C.O. should have recognized this possiblity and updated his notification of the local authorities policy after the terrorists attacks that occurred here in the United States. It might have weakened the training exercise's a little but I know how smart our military can be when it needs to be and they would have found a new angle to follow for training.(I am still in awe of a smart bomb knocking on the front door of any building they
dislike)
        I am not a big LEO supporter.(No I haven't been arrested for anything) But in this case the LEO (unfortunately) did a good job. The commanding officer of the training company and or brigade need to be standing on the carpet in the Pentagon answering serious questions.IMHO

Sorry, but this is the Army's fault. They need to A) Not practice their exercises in a civilian environment or B) If they do practice in a civilian environment, use another soldier to portray a Deputy. That way, when happening upon a REAL Deputy, they know that he is not playing and they could explain who they are and what they are doing before making any sudden moves.
The SF's were wrong to assume that the Deputy was part of the exercise. No, they didn't DESERVE to have their lives taken. It was a deadly miscommunication. The Deputy did not know what was happening and acted EXACTLY as he should have in that situation. He tried to use non-lethal force first and was left with no choice but to use deadly force.  
 

You know the thing you're missing here is the fact that whether to cop knew about the exercise or not is IMMATERIAL because HE WAS NOT A PART OF IT.

Yup, the SF guys did what hey were trained to do--so did the cop when two men ATTEMPTED TO DISARM him.

How the hell are the SF guys "in the right" for trying to take an ON DUTY cop's gun away--yup, they were being faithful to their training exercise, again, which the cop was not part of.

Is some deputy cruising the roads while this exercise is in progress supposed to put his life on the line because people WHO ARE TRYING TO TAKE HIS WEAPON AWAY might be a part of that exercise?  I say no.  I say the cop acted the "right" way.  I say one (and maybe both--the second one isn't out of the woods yet) of the SF guys paid the ultimate price because of mistakes his commanders made.

It isn't the first time, and it won't be the last.

I feel for the SF guys and their families (my best friend is an ex-snake eater) and I feel for the cop.  He gets to live with the fact that he shot a pair of friendlies.

Just my 2¢ worth, based on the news reports that I have read so far.

I do not blame Deputy Butler for this situation.  He was confronted with what he reasonably believed to be three suspicious men in a vehicle with at least one firearm.  When he was assaulted by one of the men, he responded with reasonable force, moving from less-than-lethal to lethal force when he believed that he was in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

I do not blame the two soldiers for this situation.  They were participating in a Special Forces training exercise during which they expected to encounter role-players possibly acting as indigenous law-enforcement or security personnel.  They attempted to take actions that they believed to be necessary to prevent their capture.

In my opinion, the blame for this tragedy rests on the R.E.M.F. S.O.B. who thought that it wasn't necessary to inform the Moore County Sheriff's Office that soldiers would be participating in training in their county armed with military weapons.  I can only hope that the idiot reponsible for this is identified and punished.

Beagle with no more facts than are now available I suspect you are correct.

 

First off, your statements contradict eachother.  You correctly stated that the SF and Cop did what they were trained to do.  The SF were on this exercise and believed the Cop was a bad guy part of that drill.  The SF WERE IN THE RIGHT according to the exercise.  They were wrong because the Cop wasn't part of it and walked into a situation the cop should have been aware of.  (Not pointing fingers at who's at fault right now.)  So now knowing what we do, can we assume that both the cop and SF were in the right?  Yup, thought so.

HOWEVER, my gripe is with assholes like BobCole posting without all of the facts and just saying the SF were stupid for jumping a cop.  That wasn't the case, the SF were there to do as they did.  Well....getting shot wasn't supposed to be part of the plan atleast.  

Guys, you are working off one side of this story - the MC Sheriff's Office and their press release.  The military has not yet released their side yet.

Don't jump to conclusions.

Go to the other thread and get the rest of the story.  I visited and spoke with the surviving SF student this morning and he has a somewhat different story, as you might expect.  Also would like to see what the driver of the pickup has to say-he was sitting in the back seat of the patrol car during the shooting.

Ok, there is a difference between the deputy and us.

In the case of a civilian who has never heard of Robin Sage...Then, I would say I would probably have shot them also. But, this is a different case. How can you work for 7 years in an area with continual military exercises and training and never know about it ? It stinks to high heaven.

My belief is the Deputy knew about the exercises. There is no way you can live near a base for 7 years and not know.

As for the confrontation. It was unecessary as there was no PC for the pull-over in the first place. So what if somebody passes yout twice with somebody in the bed ? Was he pulled over because it was illegal to have somebody in the bed ? no, he was pulled over because some dumb cop thought that it was strange for a pickup truck with 3 people to have 1 of them in the bed in North Carolina. Come on, there is nothing strange about people riding in the beds of pickups in North Carolina or any other part of the country. The fact it was 40 degrees was irrelevant once you consider 3 people = 1 more person than there are seats in the truck. So, the 3rd goes in the bed.

The cop did not see the weapon until he removed the duffel bag from the vehicle. Am I the only one who sees a 4th Amendment issue here ? Why would a cop pull these guys over for passing him twice. What they were doing was hardly suspicious as described. I have driven past cops 3 and 4 times and have never been pulled over for it.

And, I fall in the 18 - 40 demographic. But, wait I doubt these guys were Arab. So, they do not fit the terrorist demographic. They fit the North Carolina Demographic of who would be driving a pickup truck. Ooh, 3 young guys out in the middle the night in a pickup truck in North Carolina. This Deputy would probably consider a Palm Beach driver with their Left Blinker on for 10 miles suspicious.

As for removing the duffel bag, I don't see the PC. Vehicular Carry is perfectly legal from what I know about NC. They weren't violating any laws. So, why assume every gun owner is a criminal or terrorist. It sound to me like the Deputy is a typical Liberal who obviously not from the area. He had no cause to assume the rifle was illegal since ARs are legal in NC. In addition, the rifle was disassembled. So, having a single evil black rifle disassembled in a bag in your vehicle immediately makes you a terrorist suspect.

Also, they say the officer grabbed the bag and threw it on the ground. He was obviously acting in an agressive way. This may have led the SF soldiers to believe he was one of them. On the other hand if he had simply acted more like an officer of the law and simply walked up to the window and asked them if they knew why they were pulled over or ran their plates. Then, they probably would have realized he was a real LEO. Instead he had to act agressive exactly as an SF soldier would expect foreign police to.

I am sorry that a SF trainee died and another might.  However IMHO to put the blame on the LEO is unreasonable.  If no one had told him that it was a training exercise how is he supposed to know?  Also how is he supposed to know that these are truly SF trainees do they have anything on them to ID them.  If not how is he to know that they are not BG's using a story to set him up.  Sorry but if you don't respond to verbal commands and less than lethal and still attempt to take my weapon or go for where I know another weapon is it is time to move to deadly force.  

So here's the questions:

1. Did the Army notify LE's of training?
   - If not, the Army is negligent regardless of what the LE knew or not.

2. Did the LE "sorta" know (kinda like when women tell you something, like trash day is tomorrow, but you relly aren't listening cause you've heard it a million times)but forgot or ignored information.
    - If yes, then he is at fault, since he started the chain of events (not that he should burn at the stake as if it was from plain "forgetful negligence" as I'm sure he'll pay in some fashion.

3. Did LE Pull them over and check them out for non-legal BS reasons (power trip? bored? Suspicious but without PC?)
   - Then it's his fault for manslaughter if he had no legal reason to pull them over and again it was his initial action that would have started the chain of events.

4. Did the SF know that the LE was in fact a real LE?
   - I doubt it. Remember, the "play" actors are supposed to play "badguy" as real as they can. Just like the rest of their training. Had they not been in training mode, they probably wouldn't have waited so long and try to jump an armed man or they prob thought that the LE was intentionally being a jerk to get them jump him or guage their reaction (aka realistic training). In training mode, you expect cuts and bruises for your efforts, but not death.  


I think it was trajic regardless and I actually hope it was a faceless Army's fault rather than any of the men involved as it was trajic enough that I wouldn't want it intentional by either party.

How so?  They're perfectly capable of co-existing--just because they did what they thought was right, doesn't mean they were.  

I recall a post about a week ago where a civilian, assisting law enforcement in a shootout, was shot up by friendly fire--the officer mistook him for a suspect in the darkness, and the general chaos of the situation.  The officer ASSUMED he was right to shoot--but he was wrong.



No, they THOUGHT they were in the right--events proved otherwise.  Their training excersise went as far as those involved in it, and not beyond.  Just like the case illustrated above, the SF guys apparently made an assumption--and chose poorly.

I won't comment on this further (in response to SF's request) until ALL of the facts come out.

hey guy guess what I found out. the daughter of the driver of the truck goes to my school.
she is also in my honors english class and I will see if I can find out what happened, but from what I hear there was somthing not quite right.

This has been beaten to death in several threads that created a lot of animosity among members and lots of name calling.  Can we please let this fizzle out.

Ok my $.02 on this one here I don't blame anyone for what happen the SF guys thought it was part of the act the PO thought they where out to disarm him.

[b]THE MILITARY IS THE ONE TO BLAME HERE[/b]

Why did they not make sure the county know what they where doing and the rest of the PD officers around there? Does the military think that is  so special that they don't have to inform anyone about what there doing?

Yes they have been doing this for a long time but that officer did not know what they where doing he did not know they where SF guys. The SF guys did not know he was not part of the Act.

This is a very sad and it all could have been prevented if the military just called up the local PD's and told them they where doing this.

Tayous1:

Not to reopen all of this can, so I would suggest that you read the previous posts on the three or more threads on the topic, or any of the later reports that were released on this incident.

Do you know the Robin Sage exercise, the associated notification process for local LE, SF training, the Moore County Sheriff's Dept., or any of the people involved in this incident?

Your comments sure indicate you do, since you have already assessed full blame to the military and the dead and wounded soldiers.  How do you know what the officer thought?  How do you know that the MCSO was not notified?  How do you know that the soldiers tried to disarm the deputy?  How do you know that he was not aware who and what they were?

You are assuming what happened, and are wrong.

Four days after the incident, MCSO admitted that they were informed prior to the exercise and prior to the previous several days of activities, but the media had moved on and people ASSUMED that their first version was correct.  It was not.

The MCSO admitted that ALL Deputies were aware of the exercise.  The MCSO admitted that the soldiers were wearing parts of uniforms, tried to bribe the officer with "Pineland" scrip, and then MREs.  MCSO admitted that the soldiers were armed only with a disassembled M-4 in the rucksack (anmnother big hint), that they did not attempt to disarm the officer.

The SSG was shot for refusing to allow the deputy to confiscate the government issued M-4.  

The LT was sprayed and then shot to death for moving toward the deputy with his hand behind his back "as if he were reaching for a weapon" when the only thing behind him was his ID in his back pocket.

MCSO admitted that there was a camera in the cruiser, but the tape surprisingly "ended" after the stop, but before the altercation.

Did the soldiers make mistakes?  

Absolutely.  Failure to identify the deputy as not part of the problem.  Failed to inform the deputy of their military status (though a reasonable individual should have figured it out).  Were they the only one who made mistakes that day?  Should they have been shot for it?  I don't think so.  No charges were filed against them.

We thought that the soldiers were so special that we awarded the dead LT's mother his beret and SF Tab at his memorial ceremony.  The SSG was awarded his beret and tab at his scheduled graduation.  The deputy got about a week off with pay and is back on duty again.

Here's what I know....

LEO faces two people in fatigues (I don't know for sure whether they were soundly within or outside of "Pineland" at the time) in an unknown situation.  Considering they were in military-style gear and with military-style weapons, AND there is an increased concern with terrorism, the LEO becomes justifiably paranoid.

LEO finds bag with disassembled M4, other contents unknown.  Again, caution is justified.  LEO calls for backup (IIRC) and proceeds to assert control over situation according to training and policy.

GB2B's begin to assume "role-playing exercise" and attempt to wrest control of situation from LEO.  LEO begins non-lethal measures.

LEO sees two indivduals moving to flank and escalates within force continuum.  Results - one dead, one critical.  According to guidlines concernging actual use of lethal force, response is correct.  Non-lethal measures had proved insufficient, and the entire purpose of lethal force is to KILL.

NOTE - Anyone under my command who would have shot to disable with his sidearm, and without explicit orders to do precisely that, would have been subject to discipline.  H2H is used for NL force...

Upon a review of incident, AAR's, and anecdotal evidence, (yes, I can get into a lot of this!) the following conculsions apply...

1) The LEO acted entirely correctly within the situation and the force continuum.  He successfully faced down two unknows when a situation escalated - while awaiting backup LE presence.

2) It will become necessary for command elements at Ft. Bragg, NC to communicate more effectively with local Law Enforcement.  While most operating withing the mythical "Pineland" area are aware of the situations attending the Robin Sage exercises (and actual events,) it is not uncommon for trainees to be transported out of and back into the Pineland AO.  This is a possibility - again, it is not a fact that I have been able to confirm.  It remains critical, however, that the basic pattern of operations and situations that make up Robin Sage NOT rpt NOT be changed otherwise - the changes need to be made in the C3 areas...

3) The entire situation could have been averted, had the Lt. (as ranking military officer present) used his head and attempted to defuse the situation.  The ground commander - regardless of rank (had it been the NCO in charge instead of the LT) has nearly unlimited latitude in decision-making in the field.  The LT could and should have revealed himself, offered to identify himself, and the situation could have been resolved without bloodshed.  The LT was killed by a failure in judgement and the non-use of available intelligence (re: recent events and likely effects!)  Bear in mind that LEO is not usually involved directly with Robin Sage - the purpose is a practical exercise in infiltration, traning of indig forces, and building rapport with same.  In actual field circumstances, local LE would be strictly avoided unless it were impossible to do so - and left alone as much as possible (it is not prudent for Green Berets DET-A forces to be arrested, unless for information gathering.  Then, they would work to GET ARRESTED quickly and efficiently!)

Just an old Operator's review...  I side with the LEO on this one, and condemn the LT for his lack of judgement.  And yes, I have been in the field - thank you VERY much!

FFZ

Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.  You just read that the two SF guys came at him.  The officer used less that lethal force to start, as he should have.  Is the officer supposed to have x-ray vision, and know there is no other weapon in the bag?  You have two, I am sure large men, who seem to have intentions of getting to the officer.  That officer has no idea what their intentions are.  Does the officer know if the second SF guy has a weapon?  He already put him out once with the pepper spray, and the guy came at him again.  I don't know what this means to you, but as an Offcier myself, the level of force just went up.  

Incapacitate the guys?  You have been watching too much T.J. Hooker.  Officers all over this land are trained to shoot at one thing, and that is called "center mass."  shooting to wound or whatever you want to call it is a folly.  In a life or death situation, there is no time, and certainly no way that an officer can "pick the shot."   Never happens.  

Now, for instance, if the same two men shot in this instance were Aryan Brotherhood thugs, this would have been a pat on the back, and the officer "did what he was trained to do."  

Now, it was a horrible accident, and this will change the lives of three families forever.  But to attack the officer for wanting to go home at the end of his shift is wrong.  

You obviously have a view of lew enforcement that tends towards the negative.  Well, that is your opinion.  But never judge what is the outcome, unless you have an idea of what is involved.  I suggest you go on a "ride along" with a police officer, and see what we have to put up with on a daily basis.  Then you can talk.  Until then, quick talking out of your ass.