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Posted: 12/24/2001 8:48:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Comments anyone? Yeah, want some eggnog? [<|:D>] |
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Posted: 12/24/2001 8:59:11 PM EDT
[#2]
I didn't know that a chaplain couldn't kill. I know our command's was in the Airborne Rangers prior to coming to ours.
I know that our medics will take action to protect the lives of their charges - even killing an on coming enemy. |
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Posted: 12/24/2001 9:32:16 PM EDT
[#3]
bear you're drunk, go to bed! [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/boozer.gif[/img]
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Posted: 12/24/2001 9:34:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: bear you're drunk, go to bed! [img]http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/boozer.gif[/img] Haha!! That's funny, as I'm shitfaced too!! |
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Posted: 12/24/2001 9:59:08 PM EDT
[#5]
I have seen some pretty hard core padres.
Look at the crusades who says you can't kill in the name of Christian religion. |
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Posted: 12/24/2001 10:26:09 PM EDT
[#6]
lol! I am nott drurnk! SEE I stil can speel wurth a durn!
HO! [<|:D>] HO! [<|:D>] HO! [<|:D>] |
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Posted: 12/24/2001 10:36:05 PM EDT
[#7]
A Conscientious Objector can always join the medical corps, where his primary duty is that of relieving the suffering of the wounded. A Chaplain provides relief to the mental and emotional suffering of men who must commit terrible deeds on a daily basis, as well as just to help morale in general. We were at NTC in the middle of summer, temps being in the 100's every day, which is no fun in an AFV. Anyway, one day the Chaplain rode up in his Hummvee, and he & his asst. get out a large cooler. You know those "freezer Pops?" Our Chaplain spent his own $ to buy 3 for every body in the Battalion. A very small thing, but it meant a LOT, and we never forgot that. And medics? Words cannot describe the respect combat troops have for their "Doc."
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Posted: 12/24/2001 11:38:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Hmmm - I'm at a bit of a loss at the moment...
Upon review, I see I never really mentioned anything about medics specifically, and I KNOW "doc" can be nasty. In my old unit, "Doc" was also the first sniper... BUT, My questions were more oriented toward COs and Chaplains. CO status should really not be an option on enlistment paperwork, as all military personnel are supposed to qualify with weapons as part of Basic Military Training. So, what gives here? COs can always serve in a civilian status... Ditto Chaplains. I know that there really is no Christian staute against self-defence - Jesus Himself condoned it. But, I seem to remember speaking to an few Chaplains and finding them filling roles more oriented toward "support." Yes, it is true that our Chaplains are primarily tasked with seeing to the mental and spiritual welfare of our troops, but again - how can one bless and encourage something that (generally, OK) one is not willing to take part in? Remember that the man who eats the meat is brother to the butcher - if you benefit from an action you are just as morally responsible as the man who commited the action in the first place... I have met some more than decent Chaplains, and they are - as a rule - good, solid men. BUT, most of the ones I have met don't seem to know one end of a rifle form the other, and THAT worried me. If you don't want to qualify with weapons, serve in a non-uniform capacity. ALL personnel in uniform should be ready to go to arms if necessary. ALL of them. ALL of us... FFZ BTW - I'm not saying that a Chaplain CAN'T kill (i.e. is prevented by law or regulation) - but that most of them WON'T kill. Sounds like a semantic difference, but it is not... |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 5:10:02 AM EDT
[#9]
For my $$$...
ALL CO's are shitbirds. Pardon my frankness on Christmas Day. Others have fought and killed and died for THEIR right to "object." CO's should just imprison themselves in Commie jails. re: chaplains Few people here are more "religious " than me. I would love to be a military chaplain. And to my reasing, the Bible offers no obejection to the killing that takes place during war. God Himself commanded the Israelites to ANNIHILATE several cultures. So, I find it hard to stomach when someone says that God is aggainst killing. After all, God invented teh death penalty. God is aghainst pre-meditated murder. Meryy Christmas!!!! |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 5:22:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: For my $$$... ALL CO's are shitbirds. Pardon my frankness on Christmas Day. Others have fought and killed and died for THEIR right to "object." CO's should just imprison themselves in Commie jails. re: chaplains Few people here are more "religious " than me. I would love to be a military chaplain. And to my reasing, the Bible offers no obejection to the killing that takes place during war. God Himself commanded the Israelites to ANNIHILATE several cultures. So, I find it hard to stomach when someone says that God is aggainst killing. After all, God invented teh death penalty. God is aghainst pre-meditated murder. Meryy Christmas!!!! Perhaps, and I'm just guessing here, some people have different beliefs and different values than your own? Your beliefs are no more valid than anybody else's. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 5:37:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Your beliefs are no more valid than anybody else's. A person with a true faith in his "beliefs" can't agree with that. My beliefs are the most valid. Eddie |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 5:43:14 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: Perhaps, and I'm just guessing here, some people have different beliefs and different values than your own? Help me to understand here. So, what you are saying is that some people believe that OTHERS fighting and killing and dying for a CO's rights to "object" is OK, but these CO's refuse to do the same for others??? People died for their rights, but they refuse to be willing to fight for others rights??? Talk about a "one way street." I don't believe you can call that a "belief." You can CLEARLY call it selfish, however. Your beliefs are no more valid than anybody else's. True. My objection is to people MISUSING the Bible to claim God is against war. THAT is my point. Believe what you want (even selfish "beliefs" ) but DO NOT try to make the Bible say something it DOES NOT say. Merry Christmas |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 5:43:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: And to my reasing, the Bible offers no obejection to the killing that takes place during war. [b]God Himself commanded the Israelites to ANNIHILATE several cultures[/b]. God commanded it? Or more like someone who said god TOLD HIM he commanded it. And how is that different from what Hitler tried to do? |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 5:51:52 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: God commanded it? Or more like someone who said god TOLD HIM he commanded it. And how is that different that what Hitler tried to do? Call Guinness. I beleive we have a record here. In ONLY 23 words, you made the "Hitler" smear. Exceptional. I applaud your succintness. I laugh at your attempt to smear me. And I refuse to answer such malicious animus. I'm reading "Bias" by Berenard Goldberg. He shows how quickly the Leftists fresuently degenerate to racism and Naziism smears. They got nothin' on you, dude. Merry Christmas |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 5:55:32 AM EDT
[#15]
I know a guy he was in armor during WW2 and fought in Europe, he liberated several death camps, was decorated and then became a chaplain, he was a lifer.
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:00:14 AM EDT
[#16]
"Some" right wingers are every bit as quick to make a Hitler smear, as you call it, as left wingers. It wasn't a smear attempt. I was asking you seriously. Isn't annihilating a culture the same as genocide? Is using religion a valid justification? If it is, why is it any more so than using race?
If I was going to smear you, I'd have the Grammar Nazi's get you for obejection and reasing. [:D] |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:11:41 AM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: "Some" right wingers are every bit as quick to make a Hitler smear, as you call it, as left wingers. What has that got to do with anything??? Its wrong no matter WHO does it. I for one SELDOM use the comparison, and NEVER in the first 23 words. Your use of the word "some" is reminiscent of those who like to smear others, but don't have the charachter to name names, and be forthright in what they say, but use "some" instead. If you are gonna link people with Hitler, have the DECENCY to name specific names. Otherwise, I can only assume your intent is to cause damage to peoples charachter, and NOT to counter their arguments.If that is NOT your intent, then I suggest you change your verbage. It wasn't a smear attempt. I was asking you seriously. Isn't annihilating a culture the same as genocide? Is using religion a valid justification? If it is, why is it any more so than using race? ] I don't believe Hitler ever cited Scripture as his rationale for trying to annihilate the Jews, so your comparison falls apart right there. Feel free to not believe that God commanded the Jews to annihilate certain of the Caananite cultures. Its in Scripture, but you are not REQUIRED to believe it. Tho I doubt even the Rabbis in Jerusalem would dispute the historical accuracy of my statement. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:13:32 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: I'm reading "Bias" by Berenard Goldberg. He shows how quickly the Leftists fresuently degenerate to racism and Naziism smears. It is also a frequent christian tactic to resort to calling someone a leftist when they disagree with someone and can't prove their point. Btw, your original quote came from the bible, correct? So why did you take personal offense at me questioning it? If it was in the bible, you can't be responsible for having said it. One other thing, not believing in god DOES NOT make you a leftist. I get into plenty of arguments with those people too and frequently get called conservative or nazi or chauvinist or etc... |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:16:53 AM EDT
[#19]
G*d commanded Moses to destroy the Moabites, men, women, children, their animals...everything. They had committed idolatry, so instead of the 'Angel of Death' he told Moses. Moses refused and I would say he was the first CO.
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:17:01 AM EDT
[#20]
My AAD units had a few chaplains who were prior service (particularly Vietnam) who had been at the pointy end of the spear before, as evidenced by CIBs and combat patches.
In one of my units, I remember the Division Chaplain (an African-American Southern Baptist, with a James Earl Jones-type voice) giving speeches about how evil the communists were and how it was our duty to our God (whoever that might be) to wipe them off the face of the earth in the name of freedom. This guy was an excellent public speaker, and his sermons and motivational talks would have brought a tear to George Patton's eye. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:21:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: I'm reading "Bias" by Berenard Goldberg. He shows how quickly the Leftists fresuently degenerate to racism and Naziism smears. It is also a frequent christian tactic to resort to calling someone a leftist when they disagree with someone and can't prove their point. Actually, "right winger" and "leftist" aren't even an element of the "Christian" vocabulary. I freely admit I am a "right winger" and "conservative." I am PROUD of those labels. And from my point along the political spectrum I determine where others stand, and assign them a handy label. BTW, Bernard Goldberg is NEITHER a Christian, or a "conservative" by his own assessment of himself. As far as being "unable" to prove my point, I SEE no point in trying to MAKE MY POINT to the type of person that plays teh "Nazi card" in his first 23 words. Which raises the question of why I am even bothering weith you. Call me a tolerant old fool who looks for teh best in people.... [}:D] |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:24:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: In one of my units, I remember the Division Chaplain (an African-American Southern Baptist, with a James Earl Jones-type voice) giving speeches about how evil the communists were and how it was our duty to our God (whoever that might be) to wipe them off the face of the earth in the name of freedom. Hooo-aaaahh!!!! Preach it chaplain!!!!! [:D] |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:28:27 AM EDT
[#23]
I for one SELDOM use the comparison, and NEVER in the first 23 words. Your use of the word "some" is reminiscent of those who like to smear others, but don't have the charachter to name names, and be forthright in what they say, but use "some" instead. If you are gonna link people with Hitler, have the DECENCY to name specific names. Otherwise, I can only assume your intent is to cause damage to peoples charachter, and NOT to counter their arguments.If that is NOT your intent, then I suggest you change your verbage. Getting a bit paranoid there. I never compared you or anyone to Hitler. I just asked what the difference was in claiming it was for God or for race. What I meant in the earlier post is some are quick to call other's ideas Hitler-like sometimes. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:48:50 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Actually, the quesiton is twofold... Conscientous Objectors - how can one honestly enlist into a military armed force under CO status? As we all know, the whole and entire purpose of a military force is to break things and kill people. If you can't do that, why enlist? Chaplians - How can a man commit the hypocrisy of blessing and condoning and action he is not willing to undertake himself? Almost as bad as CO status, IMHO. Comments anyone? FFZ F. F. Zone, while despising the "CO" breed in general I try to remember that Sgt York in WWI was originally a "CO." |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 6:53:41 AM EDT
[#25]
Sometime in the last three months there was some sort of military ceremony going on with about ten soldiers on the platform - probably Army Special Forces as they wore the berets - anyway one guy, I think a full Colonel, was about a foot shorter than the others but looked truly, truly as if he had probably eaten the "Junk Yard Dog" for breakfast - raw !!
One of the meanest looking little suckers I've ever seen. Turns out he was the Chaplin. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 7:10:10 AM EDT
[#26]
not believing in god DOES NOT make you a leftist. Neither right nor left; just lost. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 7:57:00 AM EDT
[#27]
I don't believe Hitler ever cited Scripture as his rationale for trying to annihilate the Jews, so your comparison falls apart right there. I'm kinda new here but I can varify Der Kliene unterFeldwebble's (little corporal) was not a big quoter of the Bible. My Father's school was evacuated from Berlin in '43. The kids were all moved to Austria. When he was 16, soldiers and trucks came and "invited" all the boys 14 and up to support the glory of the fatherland. At 17 while operating an AA search light he was awarded the Iron Cross second class(?) for bravery. He will freely tell you that he was too scared to get off the light and hide. God or the Bible appeared nowhere in the short ceremony or the citation. Just a side note; shortly after he came to America, he volunteered for Korea when his new country called. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:24:32 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: I just asked what the difference was in claiming it was for God or for race. As I am NOT God, you are asking the wrong person. What I meant in the earlier post is some are quick to call other's ideas Hitler-like sometimes. And it was YOU that put the Hitler comment into this discussion. To me, when someone says "How is that different from Hitler?" they ARE "calling others ideas Hitler-like." Your own words condemn you. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:31:58 AM EDT
[#29]
Hey Freefirezone, I would like to know which passage in the New Testament you are refering to in that "Jesus condoned self-defense". I am a "Born again Christian" and have not been able to find this reference.I am not critisizing, just would like to know.
The "Just War Doctrine" is a Christian thing and was originated and conceived by Christian's to lay down moral guideline's for War. For an explanation of the Just war Doctrine go to www.breakpoint.org and click on Colson's Page and read the article titled "The Dark Hour of our Nation". As for the CO question do a search on Alvin York. BTW I do beleive that it is alright for a Christian to kill in defense of self or other's and in a Just War. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:34:22 AM EDT
[#30]
there is no greater love than to die for ones freinds.J.C.
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:38:53 AM EDT
[#31]
Hey Garandman leave the French alone, they were nice enough to line all the streets with trees so the conquering armies could march in the shade.(HO)3
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:39:50 AM EDT
[#32]
re: Jesus condoning self-defense....
I LOVE IT when people ask a legitimate, thinking mans question, without throwing the racism / naziism cards. OK, here we go... No ACTUAL refernces to self-defense, but plenty of indirect. Jesus KNEW Peter had a sword with him when they went into Gethsemane. Jesus criticism ("Put it away" ) was ONLY a refernce to Peter's timing, as it was NOT God's will for Peter to defend Jesus from the Romans or His Jewsih false acusers. Ther was NO criticism for HAVING teh sword, whose obvious purpose was self-defense. Also, God is very protective of innocent human life. It would ONLY wake sense that God would expect me to treat as precious (i.e. act in self-defense) of the life He gave me. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:43:44 AM EDT
[#33]
[b]
Quoted: For my $$$... ALL CO's are shitbirds. Pardon my frankness on Christmas Day. Others have fought and killed and died for THEIR right to "object." CO's should just imprison themselves in Commie jails. re: chaplains Few people here are more "religious " than me. I would love to be a military chaplain. And to my reasing, the Bible offers no obejection to the killing that takes place during war. God Himself commanded the Israelites to ANNIHILATE several cultures. So, I find it hard to stomach when someone says that God is aggainst killing. After all, God invented teh death penalty. God is aghainst pre-meditated murder. Meryy Christmas!!!! So your God is such a pussy that he needs someone else to do his killing for him?Also sounds like your useless God is all about premeditated murder. God...what a stupid concept! |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:44:15 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Hey Garandman leave the French alone, they were nice enough to line all the streets with trees so the conquering armies could march in the shade.(HO)3 He he he [:D] I think America should take advantage of their kindness. We ought to annex France - and call it Garandmania. [:D] We've already bailed them out twice this century alone. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:47:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Quoted: So your God is such a pussy that he needs someone else to do his killing for him?Also sounds like your useless God is all about premeditated murder. God...what a stupid concept! You OBVIOUSLY have a beef with God, not with me. And you'll have all of eternity to get acquainted with the "concept." Whether you do so in comfort, or in agony, is YOUR choice. My hope is you will choose "in comfort." And I stand ready to help you do so. But isn't this a bit off the man's topic???? |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 8:56:33 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Hey Garandman leave the French alone, they were nice enough to line all the streets with trees so the conquering armies could march in the shade.(HO)3 He he he [:D] I think America should take advantage of their kindness. We ought to annex France - and call it Garandmania. [:D] We've already bailed them out twice this century alone. They only helped us during our Revolution in an attempt to weaken the Brits. Then there's the hairy women and men that act like women thing to ponder. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 9:03:00 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: I just asked what the difference was in claiming it was for God or for race. As I am NOT God, you are asking the wrong person. What I meant in the earlier post is some are quick to call other's ideas Hitler-like sometimes. And it was YOU that put the Hitler comment into this discussion. To me, when someone says "How is that different from Hitler?" they ARE "calling others ideas Hitler-like." Your own words condemn you. Yeah, I did put the Hitler comment in there. But I could have used Stalin or Mao or someone else. But the reason was it seems like you were saying commiting genocide is acceptable if it is done with the blessing of religion. And if anyone is wondering, I say nuke the Middle East. Not because of religious differences. But because they wanted a war and I say give it all we've got. |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 9:15:17 AM EDT
[#38]
There seems to be a common thread of white oppression here although you have included an oriental in the mix now. Glad to see that we do not have share the title of "World Opressor" with any of the African leaders. Shaka who?
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Posted: 12/25/2001 2:06:08 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted: For my $$$... ALL CO's are shitbirds. Pardon my frankness on Christmas Day. Others have fought and killed and died for THEIR right to "object." CO's should just imprison themselves in Commie jails. re: chaplains Few people here are more "religious " than me. I would love to be a military chaplain. And to my reasing, the Bible offers no obejection to the killing that takes place during war. God Himself commanded the Israelites to ANNIHILATE several cultures. So, I find it hard to stomach when someone says that God is aggainst killing. After all, God invented teh death penalty. God is aghainst pre-meditated murder. Meryy Christmas!!!! G-Man, Seems like your Christmas was merrier than most...hic FYI, I did serve in combat in Vietnam...20 months. Some of the bravest bastards that I ever saw were the CO combat medics, of which there were quite a few. I happen to still be friends with one that was awarded 2 Silver Stars, and 2 Purple Hearts, and many an old 'grunt' is breathing because of them....."Shitbirds", you really can step on your dink sometimes....Merry Christmas. GIB |
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Posted: 12/25/2001 2:28:05 PM EDT
[#40]
When I was riding the boats by far the most "decorated" sailors were the "medics." Many had served with the Marines.
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Posted: 12/25/2001 7:19:06 PM EDT
[#41]
I'd hate to raise a thread from the dead (especially when it deserves to be dead) but you hit across a pet peeve of mine.
The purpose of the Army is NOT to "Kill people and break things" - killing people and breaking things is just a consequence of the way we go about our business. You really need to quit listening to Rush Limbaugh so much. The purpose of our Army is to fight and win wars. It is also one heck of a deterrent to potential enemies. (I bet the Taliban is REALLY regretting pissing us off, for example, and that other governments know we mean business)It's core competencies are taking and holding land, though it has often been used for many other missions and will continue to be. Reading some of these posts is like reading about guns form mainstream journalists. Please people, try to learn a little about something before you start writing. Adam |
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Posted: 12/26/2001 3:17:05 AM EDT
[#42]
The purpose of our Army is to fight and win wars. The purpose of the Army (Air Force, Navy and Marine Corps) is to defend the US and her interests, enforce foriegn policy and be used as a political tool at the whim of politicians (i.e. Clitonians). Eddie |
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Posted: 12/26/2001 6:14:20 AM EDT
[#43]
If a man comes in your house at night, he knows you are there, he is there to harm you, rise up and strile him dead. That is from the T*r*h, that is G*d's ok to take life in self-defense. If he comes when no one is home(in the day time), he is merely a thief, because he did it when no one was home. You may not kill him. We need to not only read, but undeerstand scripture.
Jesus was not avowed against selff-defense, just stupidity. one man, one sword against Roman soldiers would be certain death. |
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Posted: 12/26/2001 6:51:07 AM EDT
[#44]
Sorry to disappoint some of you, but the vast majority of Armed Forces personnel never pull a trigger of any kind. There is plenty of room for those who believe in the purpose of the service, but becauise of their conscience and beliefs won't actively take the life of another.
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Posted: 12/26/2001 7:07:08 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Sorry to disappoint some of you, but the vast majority of Armed Forces personnel never pull a trigger of any kind. There is plenty of room for those who believe in the purpose of the service, but becauise of their conscience and beliefs won't actively take the life of another. Ther are armed forces personnel who as part of their basic training are NOT required to qualify with a rifle??? If the gov't trains 'em to use a rifle, then they are EXPECTED to fight with that rifle. Or they are expected to AT THAT POINT IN TIME let their Commanding Officer know they will be disobeying a direct order, so a space in the brig can be reserved for them. And all that is irrelevant anyway. ANY CO, military or otherwise, who is unwilling to fight, kill and die for the freedoms THEY enjoy, and to pass those freedoms on to others, when [b]others[/b] fought, killed and died so that they could enjoy those freedoms, to pass those freedoms on to that CO, has REAL problems in their belief system and logic. Its called selfishness. Plain and simple. They scream LOUDLY about their rights, but go strangely silent about their duties. But as I said above, if they wish NOT to fight for those freedoms, they can do the honorable thing, and renounce those freedoms, and leave this country permanently. Fair enuf???? |
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Posted: 12/26/2001 9:50:19 AM EDT
[#46]
from, GM
Its called selfishness. Plain and simple. They scream LOUDLY about their rights, but go strangely silent about their duties. -------------------------------- That is a very good point. There were some NG that 'only joined to go to college' As for COs, if they will not kill but do other duties, especially medics, that is one thing. During Nam I could have had Canadian citizenship at any moment, from my Mother. My number came up and I would have gone , except Nixon ended the war at that time. My cousin on the other hand had his Mommy telling him to run to Canada. My Uncle, his Father would have kicked his A$$ I hope as he was in the South Pacific, as my father and all my Uncles served. My point is simple, too many MAma's boys. That is what we are raising. Yes GArandman in a part I agree with you on COs. If htey are for real, they can still serve, look at Alvin York. Also from GM But as I said above, if they wish NOT to fight for those freedoms, they can do the honorable thing, and renounce those freedoms, and leave this country permanently. __________________________________ Yup again, you want to live here, you put up or get out. WAlker chose his religious beliefs, he is no longer an American. He should be stripped of his citizen ship and tereated like any other member of the Al Quieda. Rant off!!! |
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Posted: 12/26/2001 10:03:29 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted: Yes GArandman in a part I agree with you on COs. If htey are for real, they can still serve, look at Alvin York. But even Sgt. York eventually picked up a rifle and fought, once he saw the reality of what defending freedom was all about, and the price it DEMANDED, yes [size=4]DEMANDED[/size=4] of him. My problem with CO's is they refuse to pay the price of the precious treasure they have been given by others. That price is fighting and killing, and be willing to die themselves. And THAT, IMO, is gutless. Its also moderately INSANE. A sane person KNOWS that the REALITY is that freedom is won by the barrel of a gun. CO status IGNORES that "reality." What if EVERYONE behaved as they? They seem to think freeedom, they freedoms they SCREAM about belonging to them, would magically appear. And THAT is moderately insane. A person who can take plain-as-day truths, and ignore them - what would YOU call them??? (besides Democrats [}:D] ) |
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