Mass. police officers protest civilian flaggers

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Mass. police officers protest civilian flaggers (Page 1 of 14)

Posted: 10/10/2008 4:57:47 AM EDT

Mass. police officers protest civilian flaggers
2 days ago

WOBURN, Mass. (AP) — Dozens of police officers disrupted the work of a road maintenance crew Tuesday when they heckled civilian flaggers who have replaced law enforcement officers at construction sites under new state rules.

Woburn Police Chief Philip Mahoney and on-duty officers had to restore order, telling the roughly 50 protesters — off-duty officers from Woburn and surrounding communities — to stay out of the way of the crews clearing catch basins. Tuesday was the first day the new rules affected Massachusetts Highway Department projects.

Protesters parked on the state highway and entered a posted work zone, both of which are illegal, said state Highway Commissioner Luisa Paiewonsky. One off-duty officer also drove down the street against the flow of traffic, saying he had been misdirected by a flagger.

Flaggers for at least five other sites worked unimpeded, said Paiewonsky.

"We're going to keep doing this," the commissioner said. "It's the law. We have the right under the law to use flaggers under certain conditions, and we're going to do that and we're going to continue to use police details when the conditions warrant."

Gov. Deval Patrick, who issued the new rules, said the old system unnecessarily increased costs, and that police protection was not needed at all construction sites. Critics have suggested that some officers pass the time on such shifts by sitting in their cars. They also question whether the overtime details leave the officers too mentally or physically tired for their regular shifts.

The administration's new rules set up a three-tiered system for classifying work sites. Roads with speed limits of less than 45 miles per hour are the most likely to have civilian flaggers assigned to them.

Flaggers are paid $15-$26 per hour, while police officers receive $30-$42 per hour. Most flaggers used Tuesday were paid between $15 and $19 per hour, Paiewonsky said.
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gsyeB_3znGYPNyp3AbpRmQYWIGHAD93M260G0

Damn civilians.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:00:59 AM EDT

[#1]

Details are big money for some of those guys.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:01:18 AM EDT

[#2]

Damn which civilians? The ones holding the flags or the ones breaking the law to disrupt them?

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:01:22 AM EDT

[#3]

holy shit....the cost-saving flaggers were paid between $15 and $19 per hour

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:01:39 AM EDT

[#4]

Sounds like it's time to arrest some officers.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:02:42 AM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
Damn which civilians? The ones holding the flags or the ones breaking the law to disrupt them?

The ones breaking the law.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:03:04 AM EDT

[#6]

Damn. That's good cash for getting a tan.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:04:30 AM EDT

[#7]

Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:04:35 AM EDT

[#8]

Gah.

Heard about this on the radio the other day while exercising.
Makes me ill.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:11:03 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

Cops are only at very dangerous or massive construction sites here. The rest just have mexicans with stop/slow signs to direct traffic. No problems I've ever seen.

And the ones with the cops just have a cop sitting in a cruiser with his lights flashing. He doesn't actually do anything except watch for idiots to pull over. The construction guys still do all the directing.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:11:08 AM EDT

[#10]

LEO's don't flag at all here and it works great !

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:11:56 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

and you wonder why guys like me have absolutely no respect for guys like you

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:12:16 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
LEO's don't flag at all here and it works great !

that's unpossible.

there will be plenty of northern-state cops here to tell you that there will be mayhem and carnage with non-LEO flaggers

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:12:45 AM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

So if there's an accident while you are there sitting in your cruiser who gets sued?

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:13:38 AM EDT

[#14]

From what I have read, this is part of the program to dissuade people from voting to end the income tax. The legislature passed this, so they could point at it and say, look, we are trying to save tax dollars.

Vote to end the income tax.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:13:56 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

Flaggers? You mean the same job that's done by mexicans and middle-aged meth addicts around here, is done by LEO there?

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:14:17 AM EDT

[#16]

Hopefully you guys don't. I'd prefer lower taxes. K? Thanks.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:15:13 AM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
LEO's don't flag at all here and it works great !

that's unpossible.

there will be plenty of northern-state cops here to tell you that there will be mayhem and carnage with non-LEO flaggers

Kinda like people in New Jersey and Oregon insisting that disaster will befall untrained gas pump operators?

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:15:46 AM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Details are big money for some of those guys.

I have made an extra 20K so far this year.

Quoted:
there will be plenty of northern-state cops here to tell you that there will be mayhem and carnage with non-LEO flaggers

More like TEOTWAWKI

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:15:56 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
From what I have read, this is part of the program to dissuade people from voting to end the income tax. The legislature passed this, so they could point at it and say, look, we are trying to save tax dollars.

Vote to end the income tax.

I plan on it...Ref 1 this year for MA residents is a vote to reduce the tax in '09 and eliminate it in '10.
'Course it won't pass because of the scare tactics employed by the those who wish to keep paying taxes.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:16:09 AM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Kinda like people in New Jersey and Oregon insisting that disaster will befall untrained gas pump operators?

Well in New Jersey you may very well get hurt if you pump your own gas.

Some union idiot may threaten to beat you with a pipe.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:16:20 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
LEO's don't flag at all here and it works great !

that's unpossible.

there will be plenty of northern-state cops here to tell you that there will be mayhem and carnage with non-LEO flaggers

Kinda like people in New Jersey and Oregon insisting that disaster will befall untrained gas pump operators?

yup

just like that union electrician in NYC that told me I was taking my life into my own hands by plugging in lights at an expo booth.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:18:50 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

Wow!
How on earth does the rest of the country get by without cops sitting at every road construction site?!??!?
Holy shit man, we're all gonna die unless we all pay someone 'profeshunal enuf'!!!

Looks like Chicago cops have some competition!

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:19:26 AM EDT

[#23]

Most flagging done here is by civilians. About the only time we see LOE flaggers is when the road is being closed. Next thing you will here about is loosing your jobs as escorts for funeral precession.

Another good perk police around here get is taking their patrol car home at night. I have had loe friends get discounted/free rent at apartments for simply providing "security" by having their cars parked there.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:19:28 AM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

Flaggers? You mean the same job that's done by mexicans and middle-aged meth addicts around here, is done by LEO there?

Why do you think taxes in the northeast are 2-4x the rate of red states?

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:19:44 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
From what I have read, this is part of the program to dissuade people from voting to end the income tax. The legislature passed this, so they could point at it and say, look, we are trying to save tax dollars.

Vote to end the income tax.

I plan on it...Ref 1 this year for MA residents is a vote to reduce the tax in '09 and eliminate it in '10.
'Course it won't pass because of the scare tactics employed by the those who wish to keep paying taxes.

Vote Yes on 1.

Regarding the original post, this is finally a step in the right direction. Now we need to tackle the prevailing wage law that over pays the new flaggers we hired. Unions have kept us over the barrel for far too long.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:20:04 AM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

A cop as a flagger? What a colossal waste of money. Don't use them here and don't need to.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:20:13 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Details are big money for some of those guys.

I have made an extra 20K so far this year.

Quoted:
there will be plenty of northern-state cops here to tell you that there will be mayhem and carnage with non-LEO flaggers

More like TEOTWAWKI

just to be clear....you're bragging about "earning" $20K in what amounts to welfare.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:21:57 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
LEO's don't flag at all here and it works great !

that's unpossible.

there will be plenty of northern-state cops here to tell you that there will be mayhem and carnage with non-LEO flaggers

Kinda like people in New Jersey and Oregon insisting that disaster will befall untrained gas pump operators?

yup

just like that union electrician in NYC that told me I was taking my life into my own hands by plugging in lights at an expo booth.

You all just hate America! Unless we pay trained profeshunalz to protect us from the dangerz and perilz of everyday life, we are very likely to die at every turn!

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:22:41 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
I have made an extra 20K so far this year.

That's pretty much going to be the ARFCOM equivalent to walking into a rake.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:23:29 AM EDT

[#30]

This is completely foreign to me.

Why does it have to be a cop?

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:23:39 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
A cop as a flagger? What a colossal waste of money. Don't use them here and don't need to.

Exactly.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:24:13 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
LEO's don't flag at all here and it works great !

that's unpossible.

there will be plenty of northern-state cops here to tell you that there will be mayhem and carnage with non-LEO flaggers

Cops don't flag for construction or utility crews here. They use companies like Areawide

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:26:21 AM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Protesters parked on the state highway and entered a posted work zone, both of which are illegal, said state Highway Commissioner Luisa Paiewonsky. One off-duty officer also drove down the street against the flow of traffic, saying he had been misdirected by a flagger.

I wonder how many citations were handed out?

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:26:26 AM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

and you wonder why guys like me have absolutely no respect for guys like you

Why, because we have a way of making extra income? I put my life on the line everyday and don't get paid shit for it. Increase my base pay and I'll stop the road jobs.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:26:53 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
This is completely foreign to me.

Why does it have to be a cop?

Answer: It doesn't. Lots of places (like Virginia) get along just fine without having a cruiser at every road construction site.

The state still gets a pound of flesh by imposing stupid speed limits on the construction areas and then fining you out the wazoo if you go too fast in those zones, however.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:27:59 AM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:
This is completely foreign to me.

Why does it have to be a cop?

In the past it was required. Not only was it required to have detail cops at a ridiculous rate, there was a 4 hour minimum, regardless of the detail length.

Don't move to MA.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:29:50 AM EDT

[#37]

Here they just hire a couple of undocumented workers and give them a flag. How hard can it be to wave down traffic?

On the income tax. The first time it was on the ballot, it got 45% of the vote, and they didn't have any money backing it. This year they have some money to do some advertising and with the economic downturn, they just might get this thing passed. I hate income taxes so bad I have donated to the cause, even though I don't live in MA.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:29:52 AM EDT

[#38]

disgraceful...... need more money, go into another line of work

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:30:09 AM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

and you wonder why guys like me have absolutely no respect for guys like you

Why, because we have a way of making extra income? I put my life on the line everyday and don't get paid shit for it. Increase my base pay and I'll stop the road jobs.

If you're unhappy with your job, find a new one. Just because you want more money, doesn't mean the citizens are required to fork it over.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:31:06 AM EDT

[#40]

Funny, if they were CEO's lots of people would be saying whatever they make they are worth it, they have special skills and training...................

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:31:47 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Details are big money for some of those guys.

I have made an extra 20K so far this year.

Quoted:
there will be plenty of northern-state cops here to tell you that there will be mayhem and carnage with non-LEO flaggers

More like TEOTWAWKI

just to be clear....you're bragging about "earning" $20K in what amounts to welfare.

How is it welfare? I am being paid a wage to do a job. Wouldn't welfare be if I was paid for not working?

It is more than just sitting in a car around here. Yesterday I flapped my arms in the middle of the road with one lane alternating traffic for 8 hours.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:32:03 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

and you wonder why guys like me have absolutely no respect for guys like you

Why, because we have a way of making extra income? I put my life on the line everyday and don't get paid shit for it. Increase my base pay and I'll stop the road jobs.

Boo hoo, find a different job like everyone else does.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:32:30 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

So if there's an accident while you are there sitting in your cruiser who gets sued?

I for one, do not "sit" in my cruiser. I park it at the begining of the construction zone and walk the site dealing with traffic. If an accident does happen, our department is partially responsible as well as the contractor.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:33:45 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
Funny, if they were CEO's lots of people would be saying whatever they make they are worth it, they have special skills and training...................

The two aren't comparable. A for-profit business pays it's employees according to their worth to the company, ie: the revenue they generate or help generate. If you want a CEO salary, become a CEO.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:34:07 AM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
Funny, if they were CEO's lots of people would be saying whatever they make they are worth it, they have special skills and training...................

CEO's are answerable to boards who are, in turn, answerable to shareholders.

If the people who own GM stock want to give their CEO a golden urinal and an exotic virgin to massage him every time he needs to go wee, that's their business.

Tax money is a different kettle of fish.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:35:23 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

So if there's an accident while you are there sitting in your cruiser who gets sued?

I for one, do not "sit" in my cruiser. I park it at the begining of the construction zone and walk the site dealing with traffic. If an accident does happen, our department is partially responsible as well as the contractor.

Yeah. None of the cops sit in their cruiser. They're all actively working. Funny. Every time I drive by a detail the cop is staring in a hole or sitting in his cruiser. I guess we just get all the good ones here.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:37:48 AM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Yeah, this is a HUGE problem for us LEO's. Most of us rely on the extra income from road jobs to supplement our base pay. So far, most of the big contractors (gas, electric & cable companies) agree with us and want LEO's to watch over road side construction. If an accident happens while a flagman is overseeing the job, guess who gets sued? The contractor who hired them. Plus most of our road jobs require a cruiser with flashing lights to be present, most people slow way down when the see the flashing blues. Not to many slow down when the guy on the side of the road is waving a 12" x 12" orange flag.

Hopefully we win this battle.

and you wonder why guys like me have absolutely no respect for guys like you

Why, because we have a way of making extra income? I put my life on the line everyday and don't get paid shit for it. Increase my base pay and I'll stop the road jobs.

What is different now? You can still apply for that same road job today. You can (

) compete with everyone else for it.

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:39:28 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Funny, if they were CEO's lots of people would be saying whatever they make they are worth it, they have special skills and training...................

CEO's are answerable to boards who are, in turn, answerable to shareholders.

If the people who own GM stock want to give their CEO a golden urinal and an exotic virgin to massage him every time he needs to go wee, that's their business.

Tax money is a different kettle of fish.

Uh-huh......................................

Why the difference in perception between guys that make millions, sometimes doing nothing useful, and the guys that would run into a burning building to get strangers out?

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:39:40 AM EDT

[#49]

Traffic control is no joke.

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=76&t=768885

Posted: 10/10/2008 5:42:28 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
Funny, if they were CEO's lots of people would be saying whatever they make they are worth it, they have special skills and training...................

Special skills and training?

I have directed lots of traffic. There are no special skills and training involved. This isn't a 4 wya stop with a broken light, it is a lane closed so you let one way go, then the other.

The $10 an hour mexicans here do it just fine.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Mass. police officers protest civilian flaggers (Page 1 of 14)

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