I saw a lot of threads today on another forum, where folks are without power in my fair state, and may remain that way for a few days. This sort of thing happened to me earlier this year, and I had to rig up something quick so that I could continue working (I work from home), and keep my family reasonably comfortable at the same time. I can run my whole house off of my el-cheapo 5700W generator, with a little bit of planning. If you've been putting off getting a generator to power your house, because you figured you just don't have the coin like those cool uber-prepared mo-fo's in the Survival Forum, then this thread is for you.

If you're like me and don't have the money for a proper whole house generator, transfer switch, blah blah, then you just have to get a little creative, and be careful. It's not an idiot-proof setup, so if you're an idiot, please disregard.

During my last storm/extended power outage, I went down to Menards and picked up a 5700W gas generator. Now, you could stop right here and just drag extension cords in the house like a proper cheap bastard, but that kind of blows. It's nice to be able to run the heat/ac, hit the ceiling lights, etc, without having cords drug all over the place. So what I did, was pick up some 10 gauge 3 conductor wire and a 220v plug that fit my generator (I could have hard wired it to the generator, but I like the option of unplugging it and using the generator elsewhere if I'd like). I drilled a hole in the side of the access box where the utility power comes in, and put a weather-tight compression fitting in there to run the generator cable through. I picked up a 50A breaker that fit my existing fuse box (note: really should be a 30A), installed that, and wired my generator to it.

So here's the deal - configured this way, my generator feeds my existing panel. When I want to use it, I fire up the generator, kill the main breaker (VERY important), then flip the generator breaker on. My generator is now feeding my panel, and thus the entire house. This method of doing it is cheap (yay!), but it's not without it's compromises. Let's examine some of those:

1. You have to manually check to see if the power has come back on with a multimeter, by checking the feed side of the main breaker periodically. I suppose you could also see if your unprepared neighbor's lights have some back on.

2. You have to be careful - you absolutely can NOT have both your generator and main breakers on at the same time! This is not an idiot-proof setup, so please do not do this if you might be an idiot. If you backfeed the grid with your generator, you could potentially injure utility workers (more likely: You'll pop your generator breaker immediately...but still). Also, if power is being supplied to the panel by both your generator and the utility, you're going to break shit and I don't know what all. One breaker at a time, folks. Never both. Like I said, this isn't idiot-proof. Don't be a moron.

3. Using a small generator to power the entire house - be mindful of what you're trying to run off that generator. A 5700W generator like mine is good for 30 amps. Go to Harbor Freight and pick up a clamp-on ammeter for $5-10, and use it to see how much current you're drawing. 30 amps is enough to run your A/C, but you're not going to have much spare capacity for stuff like your electric stove, fridge, electric water heater, etc. You have to be smart about it. The lights and what not don't require jack shit for current (I think every light in my house and a couple computers pulls like 2 amps or so). You have to juggle the power a bit. Kill breakers you aren't using. You need to know how much power certain things in your house require (like the AC/heat, fridge, water heater, stove, lights, whatever) and make decisions on what you want to run concurrently at any given moment. You'll do things like run the AC and the lights to cool the house down, then kill the AC and flip everything else on (except the water heater and stove)...things like that. You have to manage your available current.

Don't want to worry about managing power? Wanna party like it's 1999  during an outage? Open your checkbook and buy a generator good for 100 amps or so. Are you like me, and not made of money? Then ration available power by flipping breakers.

It's helpful to use an ammeter beforehand, and note how much power the various circuits in your house actually require. This way, when the time comes, you'll know what can be running at the same time, and what can't, based on the capacity of the generator you pick up. It's not as bad as you might think - I only have 100A service from the utility to my lil 'ol house. I can hit about 90A if I work really hard at it, and turn on everything I can possibly think of (microwave, vacuum, stove, AC, lights, fans, TV, washer, dryer, water heater, etc). I suppose I could exceed it if I started firing up halogen lamps and all of my power tools, but sheesh.

Anyway, with all of the threads on folks here in Ohio having power outages, I figured I'd mention how my cheap-ass did it. With a little bit of outside the box thinking and some planning, you can more or less power your house for less than $500 invested. If you've always wanted to have a generator hooked up to your house, but figured you didn't really have the money for that kind of setup. then maybe it's now in your reach.


If anybody really wants to do this, I could go into more detail (for the non-electricians), take pictures, etc. This is pretty much a DIY thing, because no electrician is going to be comfortable hooking up a generator to the house without a proper transfer switch, properly sized generator, etc - for reasons I described earlier.

If you're an electrician reading this, and you're about to have a heart attack and start flaming me...blow me.

An "I'm an electrician, I didn't say a thing, so go blow yourself" tag.

Quoted: An "I'm an electrician, I didn't say a thing, so go blow yourself" tag.

I was also an electrician.  Is this illegal?  Just curious.  I'm about to buy a transfer switch because I'm tired of the extension cords.  I'd like to have something fool-proof set up for when it's just my wife or mom around so they can do it themselves.  

You COULD just rig an electric dryer outlet for it.

FWIW, some electrical companies require you to register your transfer switches. If you don't, and the linemen notice you have lights, well, they could come get your meter.

Just sayin'

That's cheap.  From what I have read, it's also dangerous.  There's the obvious problem with the potential for backfeeding/double feeding and I'm sure some of the electricians who inhabit the survival forum will be along soon to tell you why it's a bad idea.

I picked up a generator and single-circuit transfer switch for something like $350.  It only runs the furnace through the transfer switch (freezer/fridge are run through extension cords) but it's up to code and perfectly safe.  

edited to add: just searched the survival forum archive.  My setup was actually $280 out the door for the generator and transfer switch.  Here's the survival forum thread on the "poor man's transfer switch" in which some electricians claim it's dangerous not to use a transfer switch.  archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=607662

Too much work!  Been there, done that.

You should run a cable from your generator to your clothes dryers outlet.  BEFORE you do that, switch off the main breaker at your electric box.  Then, the power runs from your generator through the dryer plug to the distribution box and to all the outlets in your home.  Just remember to turn the main switch off before you plug the generator in.

Quoted: I was also an electrician.  Is this illegal?  Just curious.  I'm about to buy a transfer switch because I'm tired of the extension cords.  I'd like to have something fool-proof set up for when it's just my wife or mom around so they can do it themselves.

Usually illegal, because the transformers on the poles work both ways. Linemen have a thing about working on stuff that's supposed to be off, but is actually several thousand volts. If you screw up, someone could get killed.

The transfer switch is a much better option for the technically less inclined, but this would work.

And how much does a typical "do it right" generator setup run?  What is required?

And pull doesn't effect running time correct? It uses the same amount of fuel if you are running 1 light bulb as it does the A/C right?

in before i electrocute myself

I don't know about Ohio, but in most counties in NY, you have to get it inspected. If you don't have it on record and your house goes poof, insurance isn't going to pay.

Every so often threads come up in GD and I just go 'That is gonna get somebody somewhere, sometime, maimed or dead'.

In most places it is not illegal. As long as there is no chance of power being fed back down the line. As for pulling the meter, have the utility worker arrested for criminal trespass. It worked for my neighbor.

What about these that run on Natural Gas?

http://www.homegeneratorsystems.com/buying_guide/levels/index.cfm

The great thing about my situation is I'll just plug my 30 Amp Travel Trailer extension cord into my generator on one end, and my Travel Trailer on the other and live in the trailer until power comes back on.  I've got all the creature comforts right there, and a pretty big fridge/freezer, AC, TV, etc.

And make sure everything is off, and the generator turned off and disconnected ALL the way before throwing the main breaker back on to the mains.

Transfer switch properly and probably professionally installed is the safest way to go.

Back feeding falls into the category of decision making that includes if 3 grains of Bullseye is good 6 grains is better. or if I keep my windows open I can use my charcoal bbq in the house.  Yeah it might work and it is simple.  But it can kill you damn quick.

This is not on the level of an earthquake gas shutoff device.  It's pretty essential too.  But turning the gas back on early won't fry anybody down the lines.

Quoted: I was also an electrician.  Is this illegal?

Don't know, don't care. In my neck of the woods (very rural), I'm not zoned. No inspections required, and further - none available. Around here, if you fuck something up, it's on you. The locals will also have a good laugh at your expense, while they're helping you put out the fire.

I'd like to have something fool-proof set up for when it's just my wife or mom around so they can do it themselves.

Carbon-based Transfer Switch v1.0 does not support wife and mother actuation at this time. You may submit a product enhancement request, using the form available at our website, at www.YouWillBurnTheDamnHouseDown.com.

Agents are standing by.

Funny,
I just read your thread on the "site that shall not be named"
got me wanting an ampmeter now.

Quoted: And pull doesn't effect running time correct? It uses the same amount of fuel if you are running 1 light bulb as it does the A/C right?

No. The motor will work harder to supply additional current. The generator itself is actually physically harder to turn as power requirements increase.

Quoted: Every so often threads come up in GD and I just go 'That is gonna get somebody somewhere, sometime, maimed or dead'.

This is a good thread and timely.  I know several people with 220 pigtails hanging out of their service panels to hook generators up to.  Several people in my family.  I'm one of the idiots OP was talking about.  I'd be thinking about Sarah Palin and throw the genny breaker with the main still cooked and Darwin would chuckle and feel very pleased with himself that he got another one.  I don't know if paralleling two power sources 180deg out of phase is something I'd like to try with my dick skinners on the breaker, but I'm sure it wouldn't be pleasant if the breaker didn't pop in time.  I would seriously like to know if this is illegal or not, because I have had this discussion with so many people and would hate to see one of my family or friends hurt someone or get screwed.

Quoted: In most places it is not illegal. As long as there is no chance of power being fed back down the line. As for pulling the meter, have the utility worker arrested for criminal trespass. It worked for my neighbor.

I can't speak for your state laws, but I would guess that an electric company employee could come on my property and get their meter if they wanted. They can come on it to read it--believe me.

Quoted: That's cheap.  From what I have read, it's also dangerous.  There's the obvious problem with the potential for backfeeding/double feeding and I'm sure some of the electricians who inhabit the survival forum will be along soon to tell you why it's a bad idea. I picked up a generator and single-circuit transfer switch for something like $350.  It only runs the furnace through the transfer switch (freezer/fridge are run through extension cords) but it's up to code and perfectly safe.   edited to add: just searched the survival forum archive.  My setup was actually $280 out the door for the generator and transfer switch.  Here's the survival forum thread on the "poor man's transfer switch" in which some electricians claim it's dangerous not to use a transfer switch.  archive.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=10&f=17&t=607662

By killing the main breaker, you are completely disconnecting the panel from the grid. If the generator is feeding the panel through it's own breaker, and you have killed the breaker that separates the grid from your panel, it is physically impossible to backfeed the grid.

If you leave the main breaker on (user error), you done fucked up, and may God have mercy on your wretched soul.

Quoted: And pull doesn't effect running time correct? It uses the same amount of fuel if you are running 1 light bulb as it does the A/C right?

Not true, the more current being drawn, the more counter electromotive force created which produces a countertorque applied to the primemover (the motor).

This is perfect for if you can't scrape together $200 to avoid potentially killing a lineman. For goodness sake, run extension cords if you're going to be cheap. I can pretty much guarantee this is illegal anywhere in the united states. I got my transfer switch for $120 on sale, at Menards even, it does 8 circuits, 7 with my well hooked up because it's 220.

The bottom line is, if you don't want to run cords that bad do a little overtime or get out the credit card, don't potentially kill the people trying to help you because you want to be cheap. Flamesuit on.

Quoted: In most places it is not illegal. As long as there is no chance of power being fed back down the line. As for pulling the meter, have the utility worker arrested for criminal trespass. It worked for my neighbor.

What back feeding?

Pulling the meter when homeowner does something immensely stupid and out of service agreement is not going to be a problem for the power company.

And you can bet it will take a hell of a long time to get service restored, especially if you pull silly ass fucking with the linemen.

Yeah and in most cases back feeding without the knowledge or permission of the power company is going to be illegal.

But if you want to do it.  Go ahead and make an educated decision - doing something extremely dangerous and probably illegal, or being safe and legal.

Quoted: And pull doesn't effect running time correct? It uses the same amount of fuel if you are running 1 light bulb as it does the A/C right?

You!              Step away from the generator.

If you must go this route, make sure that you have a proper SO cord and not just a regular extension cord running from the generator to the panel.  The cord MUST be rated for the amps you intend putting through it!


FTR, I have a proper transfer switch and use #6 SO cord and a 15kw, 50 amp generator.

This is exactly what I did with my milsurp MEP-017A, only difference is I hard wired it to the 30 amp breaker I put in my panel. I also have it mounted inside the garage with a custom fabbed exhaust that goes through the wall an delivers the exhaust outside.. a few mufflers on there and it is barely audible outside.

These gensets are cheap and powerful, continuous duty and do not have brushes.

As far as "rationing" your power... when I run my home on the genset I start my central air with the water heater turned of "at the breaker" onjce the A/C is cranking you can add pretty much anything up to the capacity of the genset. The SURGE capacity is what is needed to start motors such as the A/C compressor, same with the fridge.

Once they are running that surge is no longer needed for the start capacitors and you can add in other stuff to get the most from your fuel.

Look for  A) CONTINUOUS DUTY     B) BRUSHLESS...

Most cheapies have low quality lawn mower engines that were not designed to be run continuously for hours... they will burn up and break.

The cheapies also have brushes that will burn out fairly quickly and fry the diodes also as well as PCB's.

After hurricanes I see literally THOUSANDS of those home depot specials rotting in the back yards of "small engine repair" places. The fix is normally as much as another Genset.

All of you concerned over backfeeding... it may happen but it wont be mine, yes I pull the meter also.

Quoted: And pull doesn't effect running time correct? It uses the same amount of fuel if you are running 1 light bulb as it does the A/C right?

NO!  When  you are running between 50 and 75% rated power, the fuel to electrical generation is about optimum minimum.  Running most generators higher than 75% of rated power all the time will greatly shorten engine life.

Running without load, most 3-6kW gensets consume 1/2 gallon per hour.  Running a 5 kW at 100% will pull 10 Hp and that consumes about 1 GPH.  Big difference between 0 Watts and 5000 Watts.  

I'm concerned with the legality of this....

Quoted: Every so often threads come up in GD and I just go 'That is gonna get somebody somewhere, sometime, maimed or dead'.

Carbon-Based Transfer Switch v1.0 comes with no warranty expressed or implied. Further, use of this product is guaranteed to kill a brotha at some point, and perhaps usher an Obama administration into existence. Customers are encouraged to consider the ramifications of failing to adhere to the practically non-existent instructions, and the economic impacts of a Biden presidency, should some hillbilly pick Obama off with a deer rifle.

Void where prohibited.

Quoted: Quoted: And pull doesn't effect running time correct? It uses the same amount of fuel if you are running 1 light bulb as it does the A/C right? NO!  When  you are running between 50 and 75% rated power, the fuel to electrical generation is about optimum minimum.  Running most generators higher than 75% of rated power all the time will greatly shorten engine life. Running without load, most 3-6kW gensets consume 1/2 gallon per hour.  Running a 5 kW at 100% will pull 10 Hp and that consumes about 1 GPH.  Big difference between 0 Watts and 5000 Watts.

How do I calculate what a 15kw will pull at half load?  100% load?

Quoted: Quoted: In most places it is not illegal. As long as there is no chance of power being fed back down the line. As for pulling the meter, have the utility worker arrested for criminal trespass. It worked for my neighbor. What back feeding? Pulling the meter when homeowner does something immensely stupid and out of service agreement is not going to be a problem for the power company. And you can bet it will take a hell of a long time to get service restored, especially if you pull silly ass fucking with the linemen. Yeah and in most cases back feeding without the knowledge or permission of the power company is going to be illegal. But if you want to do it.  Go ahead and make an educated decision - doing something extremely dangerous and probably illegal, or being safe and legal.

Yeah, you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you.  Might be out in the cold for awhile.

Quoted: This is perfect for if you can't scrape together $200 to avoid potentially killing a lineman. For goodness sake, run extension cords if you're going to be cheap. I can pretty much guarantee this is illegal anywhere in the united states. I got my transfer switch for $120 on sale, at Menards even, it does 8 circuits, 7 with my well hooked up because it's 220. The bottom line is, if you don't want to run cords that bad do a little overtime or get out the credit card, don't potentially kill the people trying to help you because you want to be cheap. Flamesuit on.

I'm totally taking you off of my Christmas card list. mister.

From the CA Public Utilities Code - Note this refers to pulling the meter or other similar disconnecting.  A transfer switch is not a physical disconnect.

394.4
(b) Physical disconnects and reconnects:  Only an electrical
corporation, or a publicly owned electric utility, that provides
physical delivery service to the affected customer shall have the
authority to physically disconnect or reconnect a customer from the
transmission or distribution grid.  Physical disconnection by
electrical corporations subject to the commission's jurisdiction
shall occur only in accordance with protocols established by the
commission.  Physical disconnection by publicly owned electric
utilities shall occur only in accordance with protocols established
by the governing board of the local publicly owned electric utility.

Wow, just wow.

Talk about dime smart and dollar dumb.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: And pull doesn't effect running time correct? It uses the same amount of fuel if you are running 1 light bulb as it does the A/C right? NO!  When  you are running between 50 and 75% rated power, the fuel to electrical generation is about optimum minimum.  Running most generators higher than 75% of rated power all the time will greatly shorten engine life. Running without load, most 3-6kW gensets consume 1/2 gallon per hour.  Running a 5 kW at 100% will pull 10 Hp and that consumes about 1 GPH.  Big difference between 0 Watts and 5000 Watts.   How do I calculate what a 15kw will pull at half load?  100% load?

Why not test it?  You can run it without a load for an hour, right?  That is your base load, it is the fuel consumed to offset the friction, operating drag, cooling etc.

Then, for the load, most gas engines operating under constant RPM consume 0.35-0.50 pounds of fuel per Horsepower per hour.  There are about 746 Watts per Horsepower  (745.69999  that 9 Bar thing).

So if at no load, the genset burns 1/2 GPH and you are cranking out 15kW, that means the engine is loaded with an additional 20.1 Hp which will burn about 0.38 pounds per Hp hour or in this case, 7.64 pounds, about a gallon.  So total gas consumption will be about 1-1/2 gallons per hour.  But be careful, running a 15kW rated generator at 15kW constant can overheat.  As a minimum, it will shorten the lifespan of the engine.  Heat kills the engine and the generator windings, diodes and electronics.

As an industrial electrician I will say this has WRONG wrote all over it. Is it illegal? You bet it is. Would I do it. Hell yes in a heart beat if my families welfare depended on it, but then again I know what I am doing.

Note: If you pick up an amp meter get one with with memory for peak reading. Reason being that certain items like AC, freezers, and fridges require high starting currents and may overload generator on start up if other items are using power.

Quoted: From the CA Public Utilities Code - Note this refers to pulling the meter or other similar disconnecting.  A transfer switch is not a physical disconnect. 394.4 (b) Physical disconnects and reconnects:  Only an electrical corporation, or a publicly owned electric utility, that provides physical delivery service to the affected customer shall have the authority to physically disconnect or reconnect a customer from the transmission or distribution grid.  Physical disconnection by electrical corporations subject to the commission's jurisdiction shall occur only in accordance with protocols established by the commission.  Physical disconnection by publicly owned electric utilities shall occur only in accordance with protocols established by the governing board of the local publicly owned electric utility.

Yeah, flipping your main breaker off ain't the same thing.

Even so, actually disconnecting the meter itself is wholly unnecessary. The panel is either fed by the utility through your main breaker, or your generator through it's breaker. One OR the other, never both.

If you leave both on at the same time, you will usher in a plague of locusts, and a wave of famine and despair will surely consume thy county.

Quoted: i186.photobucket.com/albums/x203/rexydg/249001-1.jpg

Can you find me a MEP-016A? I know how to make them work...They tend to have heat issues but that can be solved.  Much easier to hand start.

I don't have a clue what you're talking about, but it sounds like either you or your expensive electronic toys could end up extra crispy if you fuck up

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: And pull doesn't effect running time correct? It uses the same amount of fuel if you are running 1 light bulb as it does the A/C right? NO!  When  you are running between 50 and 75% rated power, the fuel to electrical generation is about optimum minimum.  Running most generators higher than 75% of rated power all the time will greatly shorten engine life. Running without load, most 3-6kW gensets consume 1/2 gallon per hour.  Running a 5 kW at 100% will pull 10 Hp and that consumes about 1 GPH.  Big difference between 0 Watts and 5000 Watts.   How do I calculate what a 15kw will pull at half load?  100% load? Why not test it?  You can run it without a load for an hour, right?  That is your base load, it is the fuel consumed to offset the friction, operating drag, cooling etc. Then, for the load, most gas engines operating under constant RPM consume 0.35-0.50 pounds of fuel per Horsepower per hour.  There are about 746 Watts per Horsepower  (745.69999  that 9 Bar thing). So if at no load, the genset burns 1/2 GPH and you are cranking out 15kW, that means the engine is loaded with an additional 20.1 Hp which will burn about 0.38 pounds per Hp hour or in this case, 7.64 pounds, about a gallon.  So total gas consumption will be about 1-1/2 gallons per hour.  But be careful, running a 15kW rated generator at 15kW constant can overheat.  As a minimum, it will shorten the lifespan of the engine.  Heat kills the engine and the generator windings, diodes and electronics.

I plan to test it.  I wanted to know how to calculate it just to see if there was a variance between what I calculated and what it really is.

Now I'm off to go play with numbers and give myself a headache!

Quoted: I don't have a clue what you're talking about,

Step away from the electrical panel.

but it sounds like either you or your expensive electronic toys could end up extra crispy if you fuck up

Right you are!

I run my genset through my dryer 220 outlet.  Prior to doing so, I pull the meter off the outside of the house because I don't have transfer switch.  Once pulled, it is IMPOSSIBLE for power to run back to the pole.

Super cheap and super easy and 100% foolproof.


Yeah, yeah, before you all say it, my neighbor is an electrician and is a former foreman with FL Power and Light.  He says pull the meter, I pull the meter.  When central FL was hit with 3 hurricanes in a row, I was without power for 11 days following Charlie.  I was prepared for the next storm.  I got crap from one contract lineman from another state, but the local FPL guys thanked me for pulling the meter to keep them safe.  No harm, no foul.  They didn't even replace the wire lock on the meter.  They still haven't.

Quoted: i186.photobucket.com/albums/x203/rexydg/249001-1.jpg

Sweet!

If you are like me and tend to forget the small shit when TSHTF you might want to think about getting a breaker lock and keeping it on the breaker to your generator all the time except for when you are actually using the genny..... then it goes on the main breaker.

Quoted: I run my genset through my dryer 220 outlet.  Prior to doing so, I pull the meter off the outside of the house because I don't have transfer switch.  Once pulled, it is IMPOSSIBLE for power to run back to the pole. Super cheap and super easy and 100% foolproof.

You're working too hard.

Just flip your main breaker off. If you do, it's impossible for power to run back to the pole. You've severed the one and only connection between your panel and the grid.

Quoted: <snip> Super cheap and super easy and 100% foolproof.

Probably 100% illegal, too!

Quoted: Quoted: I run my genset through my dryer 220 outlet.  Prior to doing so, I pull the meter off the outside of the house because I don't have transfer switch.  Once pulled, it is IMPOSSIBLE for power to run back to the pole. Super cheap and super easy and 100% foolproof. You're working too hard. Just flip your main breaker off. If you do, it's impossible for power to run back to the pole. You've severed the one and only connection between your panel and the grid.

My breaker box doesn't have a main (we call them a FPL switch).  In lieu of flipping the main, I pulled the meter.