Let me get this straight, the Taliban complain about US bombing causing civilian casualties, and about continuing the bombing campaign during Ramadan?

And the reason for this is....due to the great compassion the Taliban feel for innocent civilian victims of modern war, and their great religious convictions?  Hmmmm?

Better read this article to see just how the Taliban feel about (1) civilian casualties, and (2) respecting Muslim religious laws:

[size=4]Collateral Nonsense[/size=4]
[b]“A Taliban commander later said that Mullah Omar had given them permission to kill for two hours, but they had killed for two days.”[/b]
 
It is hard to imagine a starker demonstration of the bankruptcy of "international opinion" than the current handwringing over collateral damage from the U.S. attacks in Afghanistan. The Afghan civilian casualties — which may be in the dozens or, if you believe the Taliban, in the hundreds — are taken as an indictment of the U.S. campaign, a sign that we are no better than the terrorists (the Washington Post has a long front-page piece today detailing such nonsensical views from around the world).

The idea behind this sort of thinking is that everything is our fault: We started the war, and therefore everything bad that comes from it is our responsibility. Of course, it's the other way around: They started the war, and the inevitable unfortunate consequences — such as civilian casualties — are on the heads of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban. But critics of the U.S. campaign have trouble grasping this, because they have trouble ever recognizing the perfidy of our enemies.

To the extent this view holds in the West, it is essentially a suicidal impulse. Followed to its logical conclusion, it would make it impossible for us ever to defend ourselves and ever to fight for a flawed, but morally superior goal against an evil enemy — because the evil of our enemy never actually registers with anyone. This is what happened in Vietnam, when Western outrage was focused on U.S. napalm runs rather than on the murderous and oppressive character of our enemy. The same thinking is beginning to take hold now, which is why President Bush yesterday desperately tried to remind the Europeans of the nature of al Qaeda and the Taliban.

If anything, President Bush was too soft. The Taliban are the Khmer Rouge in turbans, evil and ignorance meeting in a toxic stew to destroy a nation. Let's put aside the Taliban's years-long war against U.N. humanitarian aid, their efforts now to use civilians as shields, their use of mosques to hide their weapons — and dwell instead, as a way to focus the mind, on the particular, on just one instance of the Taliban in action.

In his indispensable book, [b]Taliban[/b], Ahmed Rashid describes what happened after the Taliban took back the town of Mazar-e Sharif in 1998, after having lost it the year before: "What followed was another brutal massacre, genocidal in its ferocity, as the Taliban took revenge on their losses the previous year. A Taliban commander later said that Mullah Omar had given them permission to kill for two hours, but they had killed for two days. The Taliban went on a killing frenzy, driving their pickups up and down the narrow streets of Mazar shooting to the left and right and killing everything that moved — shop owners, cart pullers, women and children shoppers and even goats and donkeys."

- continued -

This is the Taliban we are supposed to spare during the month of Ramadan, for religious (!) reasons. Rashid continues: "Contrary to all injunctions of Islam, which demands immediate burial, bodies were left to rot on the streets. 'They were shooting without warning at everybody who happened to be on the street, without discriminating between men, women and children. Soon the streets were covered with dead bodies and blood. No one was allowed to bury the corpses for the first six days. Dogs were eating human flesh and going mad and soon the smell became intolerable,' said a male Tajik who managed to escape the massacre."

The Persian-speaking Hazara, who are also Shiites and therefore hated by the Sunni Taliban, had dealt the Taliban their initial setback in Mazar. Rashid continues: "As people ran for shelter to their homes, Taliban soldiers barged in and massacred Hazara households wholesale. 'People were shot three times on the spot, one bullet in the head, one in the chest and one in the testicles. Those who survived buried their dead in their gardens. Women were raped,' said the same witness. 'When the Taliban stormed into our house they shot my husband and two brothers dead on the spot. Each was shot three times and then their throats were slit in the halal way,' said a 40-year-old Tajik widow."

The Taliban had guides to take them to the homes of Hazara, but decided not to be so discriminating. Rashid: "[T]he Taliban were out of control and arbitrary killings continued, even of those who were not Hazaras. 'I saw that a young Tajik boy had been killed — the Talib was still standing there and the father was crying. "Why have you killed my son? We are Tajiks." The Talib responded, "Why didn't you say so?" And the father said, "Did you ask that I could answer?"'"

Sometimes the Taliban were more deliberate about their killing: "Thousands of Hazaras were taken to Mazar jail and when it was full, they were dumped in containers which were locked and the prisoners allowed to suffocate. Some containers were taken to the Dasht-e-Laili desert outside Mazar and the inmates massacred there — in direct retaliation for the similar treatment meted out to the Taliban in 1997. 'They brought three containers from Mazar to Shiberghan. When they opened the door of one truck, only three persons were alive. About 300 were dead. The three were taken to the jail. I could see all this from where I was sitting,' said another witness."

And, finally, the Taliban tried to be thorough: "As tens of thousands of civilians tried to escape Mazar by foot in long columns over the next few days, the Taliban killed dozens more in aerial bombardments."

This is our enemy. This is the regime that is now garnering international sympathy by complaining of civilian casualties. This is the army we are supposed to stop bombing for a full month. This is the Taliban. If we can't bomb them with [b]alacrity[/b] and a good, clean conscience, we can't bomb anyone.

See article at:[url]http://www.nationalreview.com/lowry/lowry110701.shtml[/url]

Eric The(Yeah,TheseBoysAreRealGod-FearingFolk,AllRight!-Not)Hun[>]:)]

Additionally, you may wish to look at this thread concerning the 'righteousness' of our Taliban opponents:

[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=66115[/url]

Note that the victim says that a wealthy man had bribed the Taliban to 'maim' him for something of which the wealthy man was guilty!

Eric The(ThesePeopleAre'Righteous'?NoWay!)Hun[>]:)]

The only reason any lull during Ramadan would have been considered was purely PR for the Moslem world. Regardless of their religious conviction or the Talibans treatment of the populous, we still have to maintain good relationships, wise and unwise in my opinion, with various Muslim countries. This being said I see [b]no[/b] reason to modify our operations in any way, and we may need to increase tempo in response to tactical and strategic requirements. Its this simple. There are a number of ways to mitigate the damage our bombing is doing to our image in the Muslim population without reducing our military effectiveness. We can not afford to pause.

Promote Taliban actions that have acted contrary to Islam. Not particularly effective, as most religions, Islam included, are much more expedient than principled. For most in the Moslem world, it is simply enough that we are predominantly Christian and the Taliban are ostensibly good Muslims. So we must divorce them of the idea that the Taliban are defensible in any way.  Not a goal likely to be achieved, but all that is necessary is to cast enough doubt to forestall action on the part of Muslim populations and Islamic states. Shouldn’t be difficult, Hazaras and other minorities are still being slaughtered.


[url]http://www.taipeitimes.com/news/2001/11/08/story/0000110619[/url]

At present we have our hands full in Afghanistan. The reality is, military actions will be severely hampmered at present if committed to other areas of operation. Bluntly, the way our force structure has been diminished, I am not confident we could immediately respond to another threat on the scale we have here. So we keep this localized then we define our next objective – and reduce it as well. Iraq, Lebanon, Iran, perhaps even Saudi Arabia. Hopefully, before the pattern is recognized we will have removed the threats and rebuilt our capabilities.

We must have the will to prosecute this war to its fullest extent. It does not take hundreds of bombers to threaten New York or Los Angeles, or our entire population; merely the will to use weapons of mass destruction. Al-Qaeda and their allies have stated such is their goal. Much like Pearl Harbor, we’ve been compelled to action, startled and shaken, but not bowed. Thankfully we’ve been given this warning once again. If we are not serious in exterminating these threats more hideous attacks on citizens of the United States will result. So should we refrain during Ramadan. No. Its us or them, by their word and by their choosing. I choose US.

Luck
Alac

Certain, swift and severe punishment will not dissuade Al-Qaeda. This is not a police issue.

Edited for spelling and clarity, evidently not all that well.

I thought you might respond to the suggestion in the article that we bomb them with alacrity and wondered how you might feel about [u]that[/u].[:D]

Seriously, if Islamic folks don't understand the disconnect between what the Taliban claim to represent and what they actually represent, well, I suppose that's just another barrier to a mutual understanding of our two cultures.

I just want to make certain that Western Civilization understands and appreciates the differences.

As Margaret Thatcher once advised 'Don't go all wobbly....' speaking to Geroge Sr., at the time of the Gulf War.  Well, I hope we in the West don't begin to go 'all wobbly' in this conflict.

Eric The(Oh,Well,IfAllWeHaveAgainstUsIsABillionIslamicFolks,ISupposeWe'llGetThroughItAllRight)Hun[>]:)]

We had a cease fire before, in Vietnam, for their holiday of Tet. Remember the Tet offensive? There is not reason in the world that we should stop the bombing for their religious holiday, as they surely would not respect any Christian or Jewish holidays.

I personally feel that the bombing should be stepped up with a firm commitment of US ground troops to move into the area.

Turn the pressure up, not off.

I say we just send them plane loads of "presents" for ramadan, with some home delivery on the ground.

[50]

I'd say we need to step up bombing 10 fold during Ramadong! [-!-]

CLEEBRATE RAMADAN!!!!!

BOMB A MOSQUE!!!!

This should be the new Air Force slogan. If they are lead by religion then we should destroytheir religion. Anyone who thinks us killing them is wrong is the enemy, and should be destroyed. That includes all american sympathisers.

Guncrazy223

So is the US going to continue dropping 'food' packages throughout the holiday?  Seeing as they're supposed to be fasting and all.

THX, interesting reading.

Confirms a lot about those bastards!

Not just no...but HELL NO!!! Besides we're going on anyway...Now if we can get those MC 130's to expend ordnance "Blu-82", closer to the caves and ragholes...we'd be out before Turkey dinner! fae's have such a nasty punch!

DOD says we are expulling the older ordnance right now...which means alot of the left-over South west Asian campaign bombs are being dropped. Hope we don't run out...

Naked G-man
(formerly the artist known as Arab-season)

What better way for a Muslim to get closer to Allah during Ramadan than to stick a Tomahawk missle up his ass?

Geez, I thought we'd be doing them a favor.

And another thing...TET OFFENSIVE!...cased dismissed!

right on,
Naked

Yup, I thing we should pick up the dropping of "perishable food" 10 fold during their fasting period! [;D]

I think we should respect [b][i]Ramada Inn[/i][/b]! Where else will the refugees be able to get a restful nights sleep at an affordable price?

I kept thinking about Hillary when I hear Ramadan (no joke).  Wasn't it in the Balkan or Afghanistan that we stopped air raids for Ramadan?  She may have came out and made a speech to that effect.

Boy, the '90s is becoming a blur to me now.  If you can remember the '90s, you weren't day trading.

ErictheHun,:

Missed the connection earlier, nicely incorporated tho. The only threat I provide is verbosity. Doubt it would intimidate much or many. Bomb them with alacrity, please do.  I’m in agreement with many of the aboveposts, but perhaps for different reasons.

I care little if the West (capital intentional) understands and appreciates that difference. It would be helpful - but not the core issue. Western society needs to understand the seriousness of the threat arrayed against the West, the US and Britain specifically, and the paradigm shift that has taken place.

No longer are nation states at risk only from other nation states. Al-Qaeda, and by extension the Taliban, have publicly stated the willingness to use and the desire to acquire WOMD. I certainly believe this threat is credible and extremely dangerous. At one time zealots may act in a manner that would endanger a relative few, which merely had the potential to precipitate political fallout (e.g. Assassination of Archduke Ferdinand). No longer are terrorists relegated to pipe bombs and assassination. Biology and Physics have provided them with innumerable options, a fact even Stephen hawking realizes.

[url]http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011015/sc/science_britain_hawking_dc_1.html[/url]

Presently, I am loath to envision what may result from this neo-barbarism.

Indeed, the Barbarians are at the gates. Actually we have invited them inside. Historically, Barbarians have succeeded against their technological superiors for two reasons. One, in arrogance, they are dismissed as a threat until they reached a strength that is irresistible and undeniable.  Two, if recognized at all, the response to barbarism has never been as ruthless as the barbarians facing them, or as violent as necessary to ensure the continuation of the society.

Historically, rich, democratic societies are hesitant to be moved to war. We are no different, which is not at all bad. Advanced civilizations have poorly recognized the severity of threats until the conquerors were roasting marshmallows inside the city walls. We have done the same. Hasn’t been readily apparent until now, but it is evident nonetheless. We have, to a point, failed the first test. We are left with ensuring we meet the requirements of the second. Failure will result in a real possibility of the collapse of Western society.

I hope we are not hindered by our allies’ “wobbliness”. In hindsight our actions in Mogadishu and Iraq only emboldened our enemies. We have much to do and I fear little time to do it.  Regardless if the Taliban/Al-Qaeda and those that would align themselves with them are reprehensible or moral pillars; whether they treat their conquered populations well or not, they are a serious threat, not just to the political aspirations of the United States, but to the continued existence of civilization. Think of our enemies’ capabilities 20 years ago; imagine what may exist 20 years from now.  We must not dismiss the Barbarians, we must not be afraid of destroying those who seek our destruction, we must not be swayed by our allies reluctance. Perhaps I overestimate the threat, but in light of Sept 11, I doubt we have the luxury of underestimation.


Luck
Alac

“Pressure makes Diamonds” G. Patton. Coal’s more common -less pretty, but surely invaluable.

Oh and if you needed another reason to piss in their Cheerios

[url]http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nyt/20011108/wl/defectors_cite_iraqi_training_for_terrorism_1.html[/url]

The asses need to stop showing their hand


[url]http://www.newsmax.com/showinsidecover.shtml?a=2001/11/8/100739[/url]

Dropping food During Ramamdan, damn thats funny Deadeye.

Luck
Alac

We must think of human progress, not as of something going on in the race in general, but as something going on in a small minority, perpetually beleaguered in a few walled towns. Now and then the horde of barbarians outside breaks through, and we have an armed effort to halt the process. That is, we have a Reformation, a French Revolution, a war for democracy, a Great Awakening. The minority is decimated and driven to cover. But a few survive- and a few are enough to carry on.
- H.L. Mencken

The Pakistani "President" is on the road talking up the Ramadan ceasefire. My lord, he's already gotten $3 billion in debt forgiven, a billion $ economic stimulus package, sanctions lifted (which were put in place after they detonated an atomic warhead in violation of international law), etc. Seems like we always have to PAY people to do the right thing. Such a wretched world out there.

So, it'll be interesting to see if the West backs off for an entire month when we didn't for one single holy day against the Serbs (applauded by muslims btw). And of course neither do the muslims against each other. If we do we are fools. But hey, the USPS is now putting out a stamp celebrating the muslim religion. Nice timing!

-->

US Postal Service (USPS) Debuts Eid Stamp  

On Monday, November 13, the United States Postal Service (USPS) debuted a stamp that recognizes Eid ul-Fitr. This stamp, along with others to be released in 2001, was featured on C-SPAN's "Washington Journal" program.
The call-in program was broadcasted from the Smithsonian Institution's National Postal Museum. According to USPS officials, the Eid ul-Fitr stamp will be released to the public in October 2001, in time for next year's celebration. They say the postal service received "hundreds of letters" requesting the stamp. Several Muslim groups and individuals have been seeking an Eid ul-Fitr or Ramadan stamp since the early 90s.

"This is one sign that the Muslim presence in America is being recognized," said CAIR Board Chairman Omar Ahmad. Ahmad added that in 1996 hundreds of Muslim children responded to a CAIR action alert by sending requests for an Eid ul-Fitr stamp to the Postmaster General.

Source: Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR)

The Taliban are savages.  They are also a distraction.  They are merely window dressing for Al Qaeda and Bin Laden.
The real enemy is:
Bin Laden
AlQaeda
Islamic Jihad
HEZBOLLAH
Iraq
Syria
etc.
etc.
etc.
etc.
.

Fitzhugh?

That you man?

A-ning-a-ning-a-ning!

Any group that thinks we should quit fighting for ramadan needs to get in line behind Afghanistan and Iraq for an ass-whooping.

I think we should agree to a cease fire for the holiday,

cancel flights for abt 2 days, let them get comfy, go to the mosque, grab some how chow, then when they are out in the open bomb anything that moves.  By now all the "innocents" are in neighboring countries.  Anything inside the borders right now is a bad guy.

Cease fire sure, oh we didn't say for how long.... Did I mislead you??  Bad ole American....

Thanks for the article, Mr. Hun. Good reading.

I wonder what those terrorist bastards have in plan for OUR holidays[pissed]


Tyler

[img]http://www.commspeed.net/jmurray/images/mushroom_cloud.gif[/img]

Happy Ramadan  [beer]

Jay
Arizona

And lots of fireworks. What's a holiday without fireworks? The bigger the better.

damm shame that we don't have half the forces we once had,,,ffkkin clinton and liberals,,bomb the hell out of them,,,rollin thunder 2001