I and some of you here have fought this fight before. The new AWB may or may not happen, but it's effects are allready in motion.

The AWB will polarize gun owner. We will be fighting each other. We will call each other names like "inbread drunken redneck" and "right-wing extreemest militant wacko".

We will become single issue voters. We will not show up at the poles on election day because there is no candidate with a perfect voting record on gun rights or the second amendment. (or Abortion or Term Limits or etc. etc.)

We will be be playing defence when we should be on offence. We will be divided by the opposition and we will loose.

We must stick togther. We must not let them divide us.

To para-phrase the founding Fathers, If we don't hang togegther, we will surely hang seperatly.

When this is over, I hope I won't be posting on muzzleloader.com

F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years.

Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years.

I wish.

You mean like the last 20 years.

[Entire first post repeated

Zumbo supporter?

MTUSA lives in CA. he is allready well aware of what is going to happen next. Don't let what happened to CA happen to the rest of the USA.

MTUSA, I am sure there is a good reason you still live in CA or else you would allready be hear in AZ like so many other disenchanted former Californians.

Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years.

Hope not but its not looking good.

Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish.

Yea that just what we need the US to look like Beirut circa 1977.

Quoted: Entire first post repeated Zumbo supporter?

Does it matter? Hard to argue with any of his points.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish. Yea that just what we need the US to look like Beirut circa 1977.

How else am I going to get my hands on full auto?

Quoted: Quoted: [Entire first post repeated Zumbo supporter? Does it matter? Hard to argue with any of his points.

Yes, it matters.  Zumbo sold us down the river and a Zumbo supporter has no room to be whining about gun owners being divided as their hero really started the latest shit.

Now, the OP may not be, but I will await his answer.

This thread reminds me of the original 'psycho-politician' thread.
Truthfully....the OP is correct, and I already see the division.
Yesterday I saw a truck with a bumpersticker that said "I cant wait for 2008". The 'w' in the word 'wait' was capitalized and had a circle around it with a crossline through it (I think you can draw a conclusion what is meant by that)

Why is this relevant?
It wouldnt be, except that on each side of this bumpersitcker were NRA stickers.

We now have gun owner NRA members that publicly criticize the republican party and the sitting President. Not sure who this guy is planning to vote for.

My first thought...he was some fudd and has bought into the rhetoric that the democrats fully support the 2nd ammendment because they believe in 'hunters rights'.

Do you know how many times you said will?


How about.

We WILL FIGHT!

We WILL UNITE!

We WILL NEVER GIVE UP!

We WILL WIN!


If you aren't fighting get out of the way! While you are at surrendering, surrender your arms to those who will fight for them.

LARRYG, I am a supporter of the People's right to keep and bear arms. I think law abiding citizens should be allowed to own any firearms they want. for whatever purpose they want. We should not have to justify owning fitrearms of any type.

I am also a supporter of the 1st amendment wich means Mr. Zumbo can say whatever he wants. ( I only made it through 2 paragraphs ) we don't have to listen to him.

Don't let them divide us from within.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish. Yea that just what we need the US to look like Beirut circa 1977. How else am I going to get my hands on full auto?

hells yeah!  and free ammo too!  free everything!

Help the brady bunch set their priorities.

LEAVE LINK COLD!

>
> http://www.bradynetwork.org/site/PageServer?pagename=SRV_2007GeneralLegislativePrioritiesSurvey
>
> The "Name", "Address", and "Email" request at the top can be left blank.
>
> If you enter an e-mail address, they might put you on their mailing list
> so you can keep tabs on their activities.

Quoted: LARRYG, I am a supporter of the People's right to keep and bear arms. I think law abiding citizens should be allowed to own any firearms they want. for whatever purpose they want. We should not have to justify owning fitrearms of any type. I am also a supporter of the 1st amendment wich means Mr. Zumbo can say whatever he wants. ( I only made it through 2 paragraphs ) we don't have to listen to him. Don't let them divide us from within.

Nice dance around the question.  Are you a Zumbo supporter?

Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish.

I sure as shit hope not.


96Ag

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish. Yea that just what we need the US to look like Beirut circa 1977.

As opposed Airstrip One?  Because that's where we're going to end up on this current path.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Entire first post repeated Zumbo supporter? Does it matter? Hard to argue with any of his points. Yes, it matters.  Zumbo sold us down the river and a Zumbo supporter has no room to be whining about gun owners being divided as their hero really started the latest shit. Now, the OP may not be, but I will await his answer.

Oops. Let me say what I meant...

It may matter if he's a Z-supporter, but everything he said is still true.

That's what I meant to say.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish. Yea that just what we need the US to look like Beirut circa 1977.

If freedom lives in rubble then I will get used to it.

Uh..yeah! In case you havent noticed, we are ALREADY divided and have been since at least 1994...did you get the memo

Quoted: I am also a supporter of the 1st amendment wich means Mr. Zumbo can say whatever he wants. ( I only made it through 2 paragraphs ) we don't have to listen to him.

Where does the 1st Amendment come in to anything that happen with Zumbo… I don’t recall the Government restricting Zumbo’s speech, do you?

I wish just wish 10% of the people who start invoking the 1st Amendment had just a small idea what it means.

Zumbo has a right to say what he wants… he does not have a right to have sponsors support his stupidity and we have every right to try and see if we can get his sponsors to drop him.

You say divided, I say leaderless resistance

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish. Yea that just what we need the US to look like Beirut circa 1977.

things need to get worse, before they can get better.

regarding the original post though, i disagree. the divide already exists. these "sportsmen" that are selling us out now, are the same ones who've sold us out in the past. their minds are just as made up as are the minds of the anti's, and the conclusion they've come to is this:

we must ban "assault weapons".

they may have different reasons, but the end is the same. we, the few remaining users of the second amendment, can either recognize anti-gun hunters as the enemy they are, or we can make nice, shake hands, and sing about love and unity as they sell us out again.

just because they have, own, or use guns, does NOT mean they are one of us.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish. Yea that just what we need the US to look like Beirut circa 1977. things need to get worse, before they can get better.

Clichéd hyperbole.

I got news for you if we have a Civil War thing are never going to get better they will get much, much, much worse… we will be in for a new dark age for generation.

You had better be careful what you wish for.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish. Yea that just what we need the US to look like Beirut circa 1977. things need to get worse, before they can get better. Clichéd hyperbole. I got news for you if we have a Civil War thing are never going to get better they will get much, much, much worse… we will be in for a new dark age for generation. You had better be careful what you wish for.

No kidding. If anyone thinks that an all out civil war in this country would lead to more freedom they are kidding themselves.

Whoever has the most guns and goons would become the dictator of the USA.

Quoted: *snip* Clichéd hyperbole. I got news for you if we have a Civil War thing are never going to get better they will get much, much, much worse… we will be in for a new dark age for generation. You had better be careful what you wish for.

first and foremost, *I* did not wish for anything.

secondly, ALL civilizations fall, and are eventually rebuilt. there are two way to get to the rebuilding phase. you can either torch the m-fer and start fresh ASAP, or...

you can continue to ride that same sinking turd, day in and day out, for generations.

shit man, we fought a revolution, WON, and started our own damned country in just a few years.

Quoted: Quoted: *snip* Clichéd hyperbole. I got news for you if we have a Civil War thing are never going to get better they will get much, much, much worse… we will be in for a new dark age for generation. You had better be careful what you wish for. first and foremost, *I* did not wish for anything. secondly, ALL civilizations fall, and are eventually rebuilt. there are two way to get to the rebuilding phase. you can either torch the m-fer and start fresh ASAP, or... you can continue to ride that same sinking turd, day in and day out, for generations. shit man, we fought a revolution, WON, and started our own damned country in just a few years.

Where did you get the idea all that civilizations fall and are eventually rebuilt. That is simply not true.

Ask Carthage how long it took them too rebuilt… but then they cannot hear you can they. History is full of civilizations that were destroyed and never rebuilt.

If there is a civil war in this country get ready for despots, warlords, and dictators and generations of strife.

There will be no new revolution there will be only chaos and despair.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: *snip* Clichéd hyperbole. I got news for you if we have a Civil War thing are never going to get better they will get much, much, much worse… we will be in for a new dark age for generation. You had better be careful what you wish for. first and foremost, *I* did not wish for anything. secondly, ALL civilizations fall, and are eventually rebuilt. there are two way to get to the rebuilding phase. you can either torch the m-fer and start fresh ASAP, or... you can continue to ride that same sinking turd, day in and day out, for generations. shit man, we fought a revolution, WON, and started our own damned country in just a few years. Where did you get the idea all that civilizations fall and are eventually rebuilt. That is simply not true. Ask Carthage how long it took them too rebuilt… but then they cannot hear you can they. History is full of civilizations that were destroyed and never rebuilt. If there is a civil war in this country get ready for despots, warlords, and dictators and generations of strife. There will be no new revolution there will be only chaos and despair.

Not to mention the fact that this would be exactly what every third world shithole, every country that hates the US, mainly out of jealousy, every fanatical Iman, every crackpot dictator on the planet wants.

We would be so overrun from the outside if something like this occurred.  It would be the wet dream of every asshole that hates us.

We are already divided, 10 ways till Sunday!  Just because we have guns in common, doesn't

mean we have anything else in common. There we alway be division unless we are forced to

believe the same. I don't want that neither.

There is division amongst guns owners about

guns, and when you dig deep there are many divisions in their politics as well. Don't think

that there will be this large group of firearms owners baning together if there were a civil war,

all fighting for the same thing.  maybe at first, but only till their other beliefs come into play.

CTRL<>ALT<>DELETE = Government

Personnaly, I think we're about to hit something like another Dark Age.

U.S. is starting to remind me of Rome, while the rest of the world toils, we nit pick over how things are said and who's feelings got hurt and who's didn't. Same with Europe, I dunno, these radical liberals think they're right, and their appeal is the quick pay off, not logic obviously.

Just get out of the damn war, just cut slack run, just get out I hate seeing dead americans, bush messed up it's all his fault (Not my opinion but their's.) You know I could see and understand how they feel that way, but they're wrong, You pull out of this war and we'll be plunged into another, this time for our survival, Bush? Bush has been a great leader, and the man has my respect, yea he didn't do everything perfectly but he's stayed the course kept his word and he's doing what he believes right even though his own party and the people who voted for his actions are turning against him.

Same thing with guns. Just GET RID OF THE GUNS and NO MORE CRIME CAN HAPPEN! That's how it works right? No, history paints a different picture, and to go forward into the future we must always remember the mistakes of the past, look at the UK, and their violent crime rate escalating, how about france and the riots they had last year, or the terrorist attacks in spain. Take away the guns and nobody dies, if that worked, if that really worked, I might actually support the gun bans, I never thought I'd say that, but it doesn't, at all, you disarm the law abiding citizens, you take away their freedoms, and your liberal feel good laws are what people who make a profession of murder, gang violence, theft, professional criminals, just walk all over the judicial system and don't give a damn about anything or anybody.

This is why guys like that guy in NY who shot those two undercover cops and then after convicted stuck his tongue out at the families, he wasn't afraid he was irritated, he wasn't scared for his life, they've taken all of the ouch out of punishment. Our judicial system is a joke, we need better laws and better enforcement.

How about affirmative action? WELL THERE'S A RACIST GUY OUT THERE, WE SHOULD MAKE THEM HIRE DIVERSITY CANDIDATES, MANDATORILY REGARDLESS OF SKILL OR PRIOR WORK EXPERIENCE! Screw the work getting done, because after all, most liberals don't work anyway, look at welfare. Yea I can understand where they came from maybe in the 40's but this Equality Laws creating Inequalities in the community. There are stiffer statutes against hate crime but define hate crime? They took some good ideas, and dealt with them in a child like manner, "well we'll just make it the law."

Hell, CA lost it's gun rights because two career criminals bought Fully Automatic Weapons and robbed a bank, 60 million people are now subjugated to the offenses of two men, or the gang crimes, the minority of the population we're talking fractions of a percent here, have diversely affected the rights of the rest of the citizens of their state and in turn this country's laws. They didn't look at the fact that they had committed numerous other crimes and were felons, they didn't look at the fact that the guns THEY USED the damn GUNS THEY USED WERE CONFISCATED AND GIVEN BACK SO THEY COULD SELL THEM ACCORDING TO THEM TO PAY FOR THEIR LAWYER FEES. Why wasn't that damn judge held accountable instead of 60 million people?! Four or Five instances are defining our freedoms.

If I was to go figure out a way to do something terrible with some other object tomorrow I bet they'd pass legislation regulating it eventually, or banning it depending on what it was. They take a child like approach and they get child like results, the quick and easy feel good way is the curb appeal of being a Liberal, hey this war thing sucks, but they sure were out there burning damn candles in rememberance when that was the fucking in thing to do. But when our President pushes to go and uphold justice, they are cowed into submission, what the fuck did they think war looked like?

Makes me sick.

Anyway, that's all I've got.

I am already a one issue voter, anything that violates the constitution or bill of rights I'm against.  Screw the rest of the stupid crap.

So, let it divide us. I'm not playing nice with people who want to sell my rights down the river for the sake of "unity". I will not compromise on this. You're either with me, or you're against me. I don't care if you own a fucking gun or not. I WANT to be separated from Fudds who insist that my "assault weapons" have no legitimate use. They are the enemy. I don't care that they happen to own guns. They are the enemy.

I will try to play nice and get them to come around, but I WILL NOT compromise with them for the sake of unity. Never.

Quoted: I and some of you here have fought this fight before. The new AWB may or may not happen, but it's effects are allready in motion. The AWB will polarize gun owner. We will be fighting each other. We will call each other names like "inbread drunken redneck" and "right-wing extreemest militant wacko". We will become single issue voters. We will not show up at the poles on election day because there is no candidate with a perfect voting record on gun rights or the second amendment. (or Abortion or Term Limits or etc. etc.) We will be be playing defence when we should be on offence. We will be divided by the opposition and we will loose. We must stick togther. We must not let them divide us. To para-phrase the founding Fathers, If we don't hang togegther, we will surely hang seperatly. When this is over, I hope I won't be posting on muzzleloader.com

Yes, but Ben Franklin did not intend that sentence to mean that we should compromise on our beliefs and go along with the Torries. He meant, very clearly, that there should be no compromise on liberty, and we as a group need to stick to that extreme. Remember, our Founders were revolutionaries, not spinelss hunters willing to sell out their fellow citizen to make a buck.

P.S. I am a hunter too, so do not construe my above comment to mean that all hunters are spineless. I just acknowledge that hunting has as much to do with the Second Amendment as playing basketball. It's a sport. The Second Amendment is about rights.

You can all piss off, you inbread right-wing drunken extreemest redneck militant wackos.

Quoted: Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years. I wish.

Getting there too.

Quoted: F*ck it. Civil war in 5 years.

I doubt a civil war like the one what happed in the 1860's will ever happen again. There will never be any clear sides.  What we will have is a situation much like Iraq. There will be "The Fed", the criminals, the sheeple, and the rest of us.
The Fed will be the most organized with the best logictics nation wide. The criminals will fight each other for turff in the urban war zones. They will also fight the local authority and maybe The Fed. The sheeple are too stupid or ignroante to defend theirself so the will be abused by both The Fed and the criminals. The sheeple will also turn on anyone The Fed puts a price on for some free money. The sheeple can not be trusted, but they can't be shoot either.

Where does that leave "The rest of us"? well, they'll could be fighting a battle on 3 fronts. The Fed opression, raping from the criminals, and narking from the sheeple.

Those smart enough will have a stronghold in an isolated area far away from the reaches of The Fed and the criminals, however this isolation could mean you don't give a crap about what's happing a few hundred miles away. You have shelter, food, water, everything you could possible need for a few years. Why are you going to trek all across the country taking shots at "The Fed" when it's eaiser to stay put? Sure if The Fed knocks on your door you drawn down and double tap, but if you keep quite they may not come, if they do your ready. No point alearting them of your existance if it's not necessary.

Well that's my theory on why a 1860's style civil war will never happen. Non of the above should indicate where I would stand when the unrest happens. I may end up taking the 5th option. Become a pirate.

And here I thought those "Evil Black Rifles" made the best hunting arms because they are so adaptable to different tasks with just a few accessories or parts swaps.

By the way, I am a licensed class 01 gun dealer/gunsmith. I work on more of those persecuted firearms in my shop than I do regular firearms. They are very popular in my area. I can see why. They are fun, easy to maintain, and multitaskable, much more than older style, traditional firearms.

Honestly, I have seen more slob hunters with bolt and lever actions than I have with those persecuted firearms. Honestly, owners of the persecuted firearms have a higher level of skill, shot placement ability and seem to be more knowledgeable than the blued and walnut crowd, all based on my personal experiences and only valid for what I have observed locally.

I support the rights of all firearms owners even though they may not support mine. I fight because it is part of my work, lifestyle and belief system and I believe in fighting to protect Natural Rights.