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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:22:32 PM EDT
[#1]
Little to do with the acceesories and more to do with the User.
All those problems could be countered with testing / proofing, proper procedures and training, training, training. I shot IPSC for a couple seasons and the best lesson I ever learned was 'be accurate before you worry about being fast.' Expand that to testing and training with your gear repeatedly BEFORE shooting a match. I'd bet most of the folks plagued with failures failed to do that sufficiently. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:25:25 PM EDT
[#2]
Most of those people probably just do not practice with their weapons. Then when they need them they fail.
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:27:32 PM EDT
[#3]
This is why I want to start playing. With my background and "service rifle" attitude, all it takes is hitting what I aim at. It seems like there are a few bullet proof mods you can make, but they are limited.
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:29:24 PM EDT
[#4]
After shooting in 3gun for several years I finally realized that the competition is really about who has the coolest gear 
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:30:00 PM EDT
[#5]
alot has to do with the fact that those comp shooters just through money at the gun thinking that more money = more accuracy. But dont actually understand how how the rifle systems work in concert.
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:35:09 PM EDT
[#6]
I don't know that you're going to get much a response here. I'd be curious to see what Zak Smith says about this. Russell from Cavarms would be another good one to ask, he seems to go to all the big name 3 gun shoots.
Unfortunatley the one time I was at competition where there were guys with those guns they were never on the same stage as us so we really did not get to watch them too closely. The few times we were behind them waiting I did not see any failures and they were pretty fast. I suspect you are answering your own question, the guys you saw were running un proven parts in an attempt to gain an advantage. While you or I would not do that, I can understand someone else doing so with a playgun, particularly if they are mainly interested in winning games as an end result v. competing to hone skills that might be used in a real gunfight. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:37:45 PM EDT
[#7]
I started three times trying to write exactly what you said. Good point. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:39:15 PM EDT
[#8]
First off, I do not shoot in competition because I don't know of any locally, and couldn't afford it even if there were.
However, I've seen all these fancy guns in 3gun comp. on TV and such. It really makes me laugh to be honest. It is obvously a GAME, just like trap/skeet. Yes, they both improve your shooting skills, but like you mentioned, many of the guns are rediculous. If I shot to compete, it would probably be iron sights only. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:53:17 PM EDT
[#9]
That's the rub. Sadly, every meaningful "combat-style" competition eventually degrades into a bunch of guys using unrealistically (read: stupidly) modified weapons in order to gain a time edge on the fellas who are there to hone their skills in a competitive environment. Soon 3-gun will go the same route IPSC walked down over 20 years ago. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:55:20 PM EDT
[#10]
I am a pretty active competitor in several different disciplines and I use the same weapons I will call on to defend me and mine when/if I have to step out into the street.
If some weekend wonder with a triple scoped AR and an 1100 with an 18" inch barrel and a 28" mag smokes my ass on a stage than good for him! See ya in the street big boy!
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:56:19 PM EDT
[#11]
In all the Cowboy Action shoots I went to, the only rifles/carbines I ever saw fail were the Marlins, and conventional wisdom was that the Marlins were more reliable. Go figure.
Funniest was when the endcap of a tubular magazine came off and it and the spring went down range. Belonged to one of the guys who was a character. The spring ws easy to find, the end cap wasn't. Most of the guys I shot with were definitely in it for fun and not being the top of the list. Most were a little longer in the tooth than most modern gun 3 gun shooters so there wasn't the emphasis on speed where I shot. More on accuracy. Made it a lot of fun. The other aspect was there was not a whole lot of tricking out you could do and still have a legal gun. That helped old down the throw money at it to go faster aspects. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 5:56:34 PM EDT
[#12]
It is just a game, after all. And most shooters use the game as a test and as training. Relatively few people train to play games, they use games to train. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 6:42:17 PM EDT
[#13]
Your kidding right? Many 3 gunners shoot more in a year than you've probably shot in your life. I did 3 gun for about 5 years and never had an AR failure in MANY thousand rounds that wasn't mag related, and those were few and far between. Most guys that have gun problems are the ones trying to get every advantage thru mods to the system. The basic "mil spec" type AR is by far the most reliable, IMHO. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 6:45:25 PM EDT
[#14]
Not everyone can be a winner, this is not grade school soccer.
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Posted: 2/24/2007 6:45:52 PM EDT
[#15]
So - did you see a lot of what I am talking about.... or was my experience unique? |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 6:47:22 PM EDT
[#16]
For every squared away three gunner there are a half dozen idiots. Which is actually a tighter proportion than the proportionof squared away shooters (as a whole) to idiots with guns, by a huge margin. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 6:57:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Just a guess: some shooters don't think of their rifles as COMBAT weapons therefore they don't treat them as such?
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Posted: 2/24/2007 7:20:27 PM EDT
[#18]
The gun you use for a game is different than the gun you use for real.
This is why I am torn about getting into 3 gun/IDPA/IPSC. I am not interested in gaming. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 7:26:41 PM EDT
[#19]
It all seems too artificial to me.
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Posted: 2/24/2007 7:35:07 PM EDT
[#20]
At times I did. For the most part though, the stock guns ran fine. I've seen primer anvils tie up fire controls several times (reloads). Mag issues with 40 rounders (save the Sterling) are always a possibility. I do remember one stock Colt carbine that chronically short stroked... The owner finally gave up and got rid of it. Contrary to popular arfcom fears, I never saw the set screws of a properly installed JP trigger fail, ever. |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 7:40:32 PM EDT
[#21]
Most of the gun failures I witnessed in IPSC were due to faulty reloads or over-gunsmithed raceguns.
A lot of these guns are so tweaked out that anything out of the ordinary can cause a stoppage. ZM |
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Posted: 2/24/2007 8:01:10 PM EDT
[#22]
I shot 1 3 gun match so I cant call my self an expert. But I shot it with my Bushmaster AR with a 20 inch barrel and Iron Sights, My Glock 22 With Ashley combat sights and my Stock Benellie Nova, My goal was to shoot quickly but hit every target, I beat out alot of guys on some stages with tweaked and modified race guns of all sorts gear becuase of failures.From a scope falling off to the rather large dude with the big plastic drum mag I saw in the Delta Force catalog trying to lay down and shoot from a small hole close to the ground. One thing I noticed that helped me out was being in good shape. I was surprised to see how slow some people were to get up move and get back down and have to repeat it again. Some of the guys were out of breath from a couple of the stages, it looked like they could bearly make another 30 seconds if they had to. sure it was hot that day but that was part of the game. I finished 7th out of 35 for my first time out and everybody shot in the same class.
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Posted: 2/25/2007 3:19:16 AM EDT
[#23]
It's been said that to win at 3gun you must be accurate with your rifle, fast with your pistol and quick to reload your shotgun. I think that's true but having shot in a number of matches I have also noted:
1.) POA/POI- many 3gunners are not aware of the change in POI as the range increases and they cannot accurately hit small targets. 2.) Gear issues- From guns that malfunction, mag holders that don't hold and electronic sights that have died, many 3gunners are slowed or fail to complete the COF due to some sort of gear problem. Stock guns seem to do better than "race" guns regarding reliability but modified guns can be faster and more accurate. KISS does prove itself out over and over. 3.) Training- Being quick on target is important but doing everything quickly is what it takes to win. Changing mags, clearing malfunctions, loading shotguns, moving on the course while firing all are needed and all require training and practice. 4.) Physical conditioning- Being able to move around quickly while manipulating you firearm is a key factor in scoring well. If you have to run 20 yards, drop to your side and fire at small targets from under a barrier, it will affect your score if your heart is pounding so hard you can't keep the sights still or if it takes forever to get down and back up or if you lack enough limberness to contort into a good firing position. As the OP has noted, 3gun tends to weed out unreliable equipment but it also showcases lots of other weaknesses in the abilities of shooters to rapidly and accurately complete a course of fire. It can be very humbling and although it is not combat or tactical training, it can show how glaringly deficient we sometimes are in our abilities to be hardcore shooters. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 4:24:29 AM EDT
[#24]
This isn't true unless you want it to be. There are many divisions to shoot in ranging from bone stock weapons to the race guns. choose the one you want and shoot the stages how you want. When I went to shoots, no one cared how you shot the stages so long as you were safe. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 4:34:11 AM EDT
[#25]
LOL!!.. reminds me of when I was a kid.. I would get so mad at my little friends because they wouldn't play serious.... |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 4:39:22 AM EDT
[#26]
I was under the impression that IDPA was 'stock' stuff, and it was IPSC that had the 'race guns'? |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 4:40:21 AM EDT
[#27]
You answered your own question; guys doing modifications that make the weapon more prone to failure. Some people just cant leave well enough alone and be conservative in their modifications.
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Posted: 2/25/2007 7:35:34 AM EDT
[#28]
I am not a 3gunner, but I can guess.
I would bet that most of the rilfes that fail are not factory built. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 9:18:38 AM EDT
[#29]
I love the entertainment provided by the falure of the high speed low drag gear some weekend commando's run....
The best was when I was at a 3-gun match where a guy on my squad made it very clear to EVERYONE how great his AR was.. It had this and that done to it... This and that part replaced with pricey high end after-market parts.stuff was polished,tuned etc.. Trigger done by some far away trigger job guru 'Comes his turn... he steps up "shooer ready?" ..."Standby".... "Beep" he racks the charging handle... takes aim.. and.. "BBBBRRRAT"... click. The gun goes full auto for five or six rounds then stops dead.... siezed solid. After the RO orders the gun off the range he finds that in addition to the full auto problem his bolt/bolt carrier is cracked.... So much for your "tuned" rifle... Conversley.. teh guys who show up with worn/blemished/ banged up rifles never seem to suffer any major stoppages. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 9:39:57 AM EDT
[#30]
IDPA was meant to be more "realistic" than IPSC, but in reality it's just another game with different rules. A lot of the rules in IDPA are just nonsensical or stupid. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 9:52:19 AM EDT
[#31]
i used to compete,don't anymore due to time, i seldom saw failures. the guys i know that compete day don't routinely have failures either.
sounds like what you are seeing is guys running crap gear and ammo with no rifle maint. I wouldn't have ever considered running a course without a clean lubricated weapon with gear and ammo i knew and trusted. that extra gear edge is worthless if you lose time clearing jams. most of the failures i saw were due to operator issues, poorly seated mags, worn out parts due to 10s of thousands of rounsd fired etc. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 10:04:30 AM EDT
[#32]
Now you went and done it! 
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Posted: 2/25/2007 10:39:10 AM EDT
[#33]
I am an active 3 gun competitor. You will notice that the top shooters have something in common, guns that run. Most failures are from overtweaked guns. There are lots of parts and mods that make the gun run smoother and flatter, but these come at a cost, reliability.
People get hung up on the mods that they think give them an edge. The best edge is to take all of the money that would be used to pimp a gun and buy practice ammo. This has the added benefit of showing you the weak points in your wepons reliability so that they can be corrected. ETA: I have never felt limited by my equipment, all very basic mods to make the guns competitive. Rifle, ACOG, Comp, Trigger job. Shotgun, Magazine extension tube. Pistol, Very conservative SV framed gun. It's the shooter not the gun, but nobody like to hear that. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 10:46:07 AM EDT
[#34]
Light reloads, crappy "improvements" to the weapon.
Kharn |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 11:12:07 AM EDT
[#35]
I shot 3 gun from 1988 until a few years ago when 3 back surgeries limited me too much.
I shot pretty much stock rifles or carbines. I have a JP Trigger that ran for 6 or 7 years in two different rifles with never a problem. I had an Aimpoint scope and a muzzle brake that's about it. I did very very well. Enter the Gear Queer and observe the malfunctions. A lot of the Home Built (I build them but some should NOT) rifles/carbines are there for entertainment only it seems, it really is funny to watch. You don't need much in the line of add-ons to compete, most of what is required will come from in between the human ears, but then that is the problem. It is a great sport if you want it to be, you can learn a lot about your abilities and the reliably of your rifle/carbine if you want to. Good Luck Bill |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 11:28:48 AM EDT
[#36]
I really wish there was some kind of "2 gun" thing going on out there.
I will not be running around with a additional long gun if SHTF. Just some rules to make it more realistic: -all ammo must be on your person for the whole day. -dropped (abandoned) mags belong to the range, you can buy them back for 10 bucks each  -only use Mil approved accessories (possibly only NSN accessories, but some models of aimpoints/eotech/acog etc don't have NSN numbers) Just a bit more realistic non-widget/gizzmo based game. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 11:36:21 AM EDT
[#37]
Too much focus on accuracy and recoil reduction instead of reliability.
They want an Xring gun that recoils like a .22LR instead of a A-Zone gun that recoils like a .223. So they start screwing with spring rates, gas systems, triggers, ammo... |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 11:55:11 AM EDT
[#38]
If you want a realistic match, take a M4A1 and throw a Short Dot on it, and have everyone run the same gun and M855.
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:00:36 PM EDT
[#39]
the failures I've seen doing 3 gun are by those who've been tinkering with them.
I run pretty much stock on all my gear, haven't had a problem. (well I did have 1 problem.. I had loaded a 9mm mag by mistake for use in my .40 Berretta. (92F convert kit) Weapon failure drill saved me, swapped out the mag and kept on going.) |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:07:13 PM EDT
[#40]
people fuck with ar's way too much, they run really good stock but people do all sorts of stupid stuff.
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:08:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Nope. USPSA / IPSC several divisions. (See Production division, it's mostly stock 9mm's.) UPSPS / IPSC VIDEO LINK |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:09:28 PM EDT
[#42]
The last training session I went to, the number one pistol failure was 1911's
FTE, FTF, seemed like half of the guys using 1911's of various mfg's had problems. Glad I took my Glock. 
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:12:37 PM EDT
[#43]
Did you know you're using Richardh247's avatar? |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:19:32 PM EDT
[#44]
Competition equipment by its very nature is designed to push the envelope. My 1911s, for instance, have never gone full auto on me...but I have seen competition weapons do that. Why? Because my 1911s never had sub-2 pound trigger pulls that are a regular feature of competition guns.
Well that isn't cutting edge competition equipment....that's just silly.
If the 40 round mag would eliminate the need for a reload, the risk might well be worth the reward. Competition thinking.
More competition thinking.
Again, competition thinking. I can't compete with someone like Todd Jarret...but maybe a 1/2 pound lighter trigger pull or a weapon that cycles just a bit faster will help me narrow the gap....
Everybody has brain farts on the range. I have personally gone to shoot a speed drill in training with a weapon that didn't have a round chambered.
In some cases this is true. ...but if those extra doo-dads work, it can help you end up with a better score.
And that's why you don't see guys who depend on their weapons to stay alive use a lot of that competition stuff on their weapons. They usually won't sacrifice potential reliability for a bit more speed.
They do seem to work pretty good.... The mags are always the weakest link in auto-pistols....and when you cram 25-30 rounds in a magazine you are creating a magazine that is VERY sensitive to problems. Competition is all about trying to walk on that razor's edge...and competition guys routinely end up getting sliced up a treat by that razor. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:21:24 PM EDT
[#45]
I know a lot of guys who shoot 3 gun and competitions...but they have dedicated race guns to do that with. They have other weapons for serious social purposes that don't have all that neat-o go-fast stuff involved. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:22:20 PM EDT
[#46]
FWIW they have a limited and tactical division that limits the whiz-bang gear and accessories that you can use on your weapons. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:26:01 PM EDT
[#47]
3gun/IPSC/IDPA teaches some useful skills....namely shooting accurately at high speeds and under the stress of a course designed to foul you up. That is useful. Some gaming regs are not, like the IDPA's rule about every reload being a "tactical" reload, etc. Personally I don't compete but it is not because I am afraid my ninja skills will be damaged by a "game". I just don't have decent clubs near enough to me to compete in. ...although some fellows from NOVA that I met at Blackwater have been doing their absolute best to tempt me to start shooting competition with them. The shooting "games" are useful, in my opinion. 95% of shooters have no concept of what their actual skill level is. I am aware of my skill level because of the regular high-level training I participate in. Other shooters may not have this luxury and competition can help them identify what level they are at and what they need to work on. Pushing to be better at the competitions builds basic sight-alignment-trigger-squeeze skills that can help them in a real life shootout. If they get serious about competing it will push them to practice...which in and of itself is a GOOD thing. It is not a replacement for good solid tactical training, but it isn't like competition turns people into airsofters. All of the orgs have divisions for stock equipment so you don't need the go-fast stuff to compete. You may not be a threat to someone like Rob Leatham, but then again few people really are, and that has nothing to do with equipment. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:31:12 PM EDT
[#48]
Basic athleticism's importance cannot be overestimated. Guns and gear are great...but they can't make up for someone who is just in no kind of shape. I am hardly the most fit guy in the world, but I DO make sure I am in the gym at least three times a week trying to build my strength and stamina. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:33:15 PM EDT
[#49]
Another source of competition woe.... Lots of competition guys hand load, and hand loaded ammo is more prone to failures than factory loaded ammo. Another factor that has yet to be mentioned is Mr. Murphy... Your weapon is usually going to poop the bed at the time it pisses you off most. That's life. |
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Posted: 2/25/2007 12:34:12 PM EDT
[#50]
The only problem I had out of 300= rounds was one round of ammo setback into the case and log jammed the mag and bolt. I switched to pistol. Three gun.... transition on the fly.
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