I think it's official, we have lost the War on Terror. The USA put pressure on Israel and forced them to fight with one hand tied behind their back, just as the USA fights in Iraq. Then, the USA and the world forced Israel to agree to a cease fire, giving a known terrorist organization a free pass to exist and rearm. It sickens me greatly that we must chalk up another victory for the terrorists! It also sickens me that our leaders and our nation have become inept at fighting our enemies, because of the pressures placed on us by the media and world opinion. You can bet your ass that every enemy of the USA is taking notes, and now know without a shadow of a doubt that the USA and her allies cannot fight effectively.  

A military force cannot win against a terrorist group as long as that military force is forced to play by the rules. A military force cannot win against terrorists when they are forced to fight a war where the primary concern is the elimination of civilian casualties. A nation cannot win against terrorists when that nation's leaders allow the press to manipulate and guide the strategy that is used to fight against the terrorists. I truly cannot see the point of this War on Terror exercise if we cannot do what we need to do to truly eliminate the terrorist threats located throughout the world. We will not win fighting this war like policemen, where our troops are knocking on doors, are forbid to attack enemy-laden mosques, and they are trying to round up only the combatants that are guilty of being terrorists. This strategy is not working in Iraq, and we are losing way too many US soldiers trying to fight this war from door to door. The second you decide to allow world opinion to determine your fighting strategy, you have lost.

Ever since WWII, the USA has demonstrated to the world time and time again, that we do not have the resolve or the guts to do what is needed to win a war. Sure, the US is great at dropping millions of tons of bombs and blowing military targets into oblivion, as we did with Saddam's army. This is easy. The hard part is to eliminate an enemy that dresses like civilians, lives with civilians, attacks ANY target (civilian or military), doesn't play by the rules of war, and has mastered the use of the press for their propaganda. It is especially hard (we have failed every time) to eliminate this type of enemy when the military is ordered by their government to minimize any and all civilian casualties. The playbook seems the same every time: The enemy dresses like civilians and lives and operates within the civilian population. The enemy gets attacked, and naturally since everyone is dressed like civilians, and they live with civilians, there will be civilian casualties. The enemy then invites the press in to film the deaths of civilians, which gets broadcasted to the world. Which results in even more pressure being placed on the attacking military force to eliminate civilian casualties. This cycle goes on until finally the military force is rendered so inept from political pressure, that they must withdraw from the conflict.

I truly fear that our leaders are making critical mistakes in the WOT that will eventually allow the enemy to strike a massive blow to our nation.

Plus how do you think five terrorists, who dress like and live with the civilian popultion, will be reported when they are killed.  Yup, five civilians killed.

The sky is falling the sky is falling.

During my Tactical Carbine course, I shot the reporter with the microphone stuck out in front of him.


Just a thought..........

Quoted: A military force cannot win against a terrorist group as long as that military force is forced to play by the rules.

And I am worried about any nation that feels it doesn't have to abide by the rules while fighting.

Unless you declare war you are not fighting a war.

Notice Korea, Vietnam, and now Iraq.  We don't declare war anymore, we're to scared.  If you don't have the balls to write-up a piece of paper and get Congress to sign it, you don't have the balls to fight either.


Our .gov has been a sham for long time now.

Israel pretty much fucked this one up all on their own from day one.

Same shit, diferent day, war ....etc
Nothing new here.
JMHO

Quoted: Unless you declare war you are not fighting a war.

Really?


So what do you call the attack on Pearl Harbor?   After all, Japan had NOT declared WAR yet......

Quoted: Quoted: A military force cannot win against a terrorist group as long as that military force is forced to play by the rules.   And I am worried about any nation that feels it doesn't have to abide by the rules while fighting.

+1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them?

Quoted: +1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them?

They started it.


We'll help them rebuild when it's over

Quoted: Quoted: +1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them? They started it. We'll help them rebuild when it's over

No thanks.  Let's leave them to their camels and spend our money on fixing the border.

"Bush declares end to all major combat operations in Iraq"

Remember that bs? When shit like this happens ROE changes and hands get tied.

Politics and constant tap dancing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A military force cannot win against a terrorist group as long as that military force is forced to play by the rules.   And I am worried about any nation that feels it doesn't have to abide by the rules while fighting. +1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them?

The fact that we cannot answer this question is the very fact which prevents our victory.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A military force cannot win against a terrorist group as long as that military force is forced to play by the rules.   And I am worried about any nation that feels it doesn't have to abide by the rules while fighting. +1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them?

Bombing the shit out of any city that provided support to the enemy military machine worked just fine for us during WWII.

Our enemy is fighting a total war.

We are not.

it's really that simple.

Quoted: img105.imageshack.us/img105/3769/omgcv8.gif

Macman... that is just too funny.

How could Israel agree to a truce that didn't include the return of the captured soldiers?

Big mistake.

Quoted: Quoted: +1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them? They started it. We'll help them rebuild when it's over

How do you bring back/rebuild  dead people? as for the 'starting it' thing, don't forget that in their eyes, WE started it centuries ago.

Quoted: How could Israel agree to a truce that didn't include the return of the captured soldiers? Big mistake.

Yep! It's all totally fooked up, and likely all (cease fire etc) because of pressure from the Bush/Condi.

Quoted: How do you bring back/rebuild  dead people? as for the 'starting it' thing, don't forget that in their eyes, WE started it centuries ago.

I expected these comments.


Given their high birth rate, they will replace their little suicide bombers in no time.



AFAS starting it, well, according to their Koran, there is no state of peace.   They are obliged to conquer.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: +1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them? They started it. We'll help them rebuild when it's over How do you bring back/rebuild  dead people? as for the 'starting it' thing, don't forget that in their eyes, WE started it centuries ago.

Yeah?? In the Japanese eyes, we started WWII by placing a trade embargo on Japan, which forced them to attack us. Looks like you've been drinking the Kool-Aid.

Quoted: Quoted: A military force cannot win against a terrorist group as long as that military force is forced to play by the rules.   And I am worried about any nation that feels it doesn't have to abide by the rules while fighting.

What is this "RULES" crap you are speaking of? Is that like a Roadrunner cartoon where the bad guy always lives to fight another day? When you are dealing with terrorists, you kill every last one of them. You don't give them free reign to re-arm before you go at it again.

Quoted: Quoted: How could Israel agree to a truce that didn't include the return of the captured soldiers? Big mistake. Yep! It's all totally fooked up, and likely all (cease fire etc) because of pressure from the Bush/Condi.

Have you not been paying attention this whole time?

Quoted: [I expected these comments. Given their high birth rate, they will replace their little suicide bombers in no time.

Your viewpoint doesn't even see them as people if you think they are faceless entities that can be replaced by a high birth rate.

Quoted: Quoted: How do you bring back/rebuild  dead people? as for the 'starting it' thing, don't forget that in their eyes, WE started it centuries ago. I expected these comments. Given their high birth rate, they will replace their little suicide bombers in no time. AFAS starting it, well, according to their Koran, there is no state of peace.   They are obliged to conquer.

And actually they started it, There was this incident at Tripoli when we were hardly a nation. You know the one

We haven't lost yet, but we will unless we learn to stomach the savagery of war again.  For more, see this thread.

Quoted: Quoted: [I expected these comments. Given their high birth rate, they will replace their little suicide bombers in no time. Your viewpoint doesn't even see them as people if you think they are faceless entities that can be replaced by a high birth rate.

Terrorists are not people, they are ANIMALS, and should be put down as such

Quoted: Your viewpoint doesn't even see them as people if you think they are faceless entities that can be replaced by a high birth rate.

That is an important thing in WINNING a war - demonizing your enemy, so you can do what you need to do - KILL THEM.


Krauts.  Japs.  Slant Eyes.  Nips.  Hochie.  Gooks.  Nazis.  What do all these terms have in common?   Dehumanizing the enemy.


That's part of why we are losing this one, and it will be the death of western culture

We lost?  Funny, I don't feel any different.  As long as terrorist, somewhere in the back of their heads, are worried about a JDAM falling on their laps, the war is still being fought.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: +1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them? They started it. We'll help them rebuild when it's over How do you bring back/rebuild  dead people? as for the 'starting it' thing, don't forget that in their eyes, WE started it centuries ago.

where do you figure, we, the United States of America started it?? Centuries ago?
explain please

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: How could Israel agree to a truce that didn't include the return of the captured soldiers? Big mistake. Yep! It's all totally fooked up, and likely all (cease fire etc) because of pressure from the Bush/Condi. Have you not been paying attention this whole time?

I've been paying attention. What are you talking about? Do you know for sure exactly what Bush and Condi told the Israelis?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: +1.  What are you suggesting we do?  If we bomb the shit out of civilians to achieve our objective, how exactly are we different than them? They started it. We'll help them rebuild when it's over How do you bring back/rebuild  dead people? as for the 'starting it' thing, don't forget that in their eyes, WE started it centuries ago. where do you figure, we, the United States of America started it?? Centuries ago? explain please

I was wondering how that worked too.

Quoted: where do you figure, we, the United States of America started it?? Centuries ago? explain please

I didn't say "I", I said "they". Their accounting of the balance sheet goes back to the Crusades and the occupation and politicized division of the Middle East by the West over the past centuries.

Quoted: I've been paying attention. What are you talking about? Do you know for sure exactly what Bush and Condi told the Israelis?

I'm basing my statement on the bumbling, indecisive Israeli leadership that after an entire month has accomplished essentially nothing.

They had the world's support in the beginning, first and foremost that of the USA.

Now if they had proceeded accordingly like we all expected them too, I'm sure everyone would stand by them...

But that's not the case, and as others have pointed out here, we have our own interests in the region to protect at this point.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A military force cannot win against a terrorist group as long as that military force is forced to play by the rules.   And I am worried about any nation that feels it doesn't have to abide by the rules while fighting. What is this "RULES" crap you are speaking of? Is that like a Roadrunner cartoon where the bad guy always lives to fight another day? When you are dealing with terrorists, you kill every last one of them. You don't give them free reign to re-arm before you go at it again.

That's the terrorists' policy on America and her allies.  Too bad it's not PC for us to do the same to our enemies.

Quoted: Quoted: where do you figure, we, the United States of America started it?? Centuries ago? explain please I didn't say "I", I said "they". Their accounting of the balance sheet goes back to the Crusades and the occupation and politicized division of the Middle East by the West over the past centuries.

"Their" accounting sheet conveniently ignores a millenium of Muslim aggression against Christendom and Europe.  Arabs are indigenous only to the Arabian penninsula.  All the rest came through conquest and expansion.  Modern day Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Lybia, Algeria, and Morocco were all Christian once.  I'll pay attention to their BS once they start discussing the return of anatolia to the Greeks.

From this thread:

The soft underbelly of America in particular and Western Civilization in general is that it has become so excessively nice and decent and civilized that it is now loathe to rise to its own self-defense, loathe to kill civilians when necessary, loath to cause "collateral damages," loathe to fight and defeat other countries, even when its own survival is at stake. We have emasculated our will to rise to our own defense, to the defense of our interests, to the defense of our friends and allies, to the defense of our own civilization and its unique freedoms.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: [I expected these comments. Given their high birth rate, they will replace their little suicide bombers in no time. Your viewpoint doesn't even see them as people if you think they are faceless entities that can be replaced by a high birth rate. Terrorists are not people, they are ANIMALS, and should be put down as such

+1  They see Americans as Infidels and we should be eradicated from the face of the Earth.   When fighting an organization that are suicidal zealots, extreme measures are needed.

Quoted: Quoted: Your viewpoint doesn't even see them as people if you think they are faceless entities that can be replaced by a high birth rate. That is an important thing in WINNING a war - demonizing your enemy, so you can do what you need to do - KILL THEM. Krauts.  Japs.  Slant Eyes.  Nips.  Hochie.  Gooks.  Nazis.  What do all these terms have in common?   Dehumanizing the enemy. That's part of why we are losing this one, and it will be the death of western culture

The act of dehumanizing them does not eliminate the fact that they ARE human...and that goes for combatants and noncombatants as well. Killing a bunch of noncombatants as was recomended in the post I was replying to is not the answer. Victory at any cost is wrong when it entails killing large swaths of the general public.Part of the problem that I see with so many of you who are bloodthirsty for Muslims is that you HAVE reduced them to non-people. They are no less human than you or I. Your approach is simply WRONG.

Quoted: Quoted: where do you figure, we, the United States of America started it?? Centuries ago? explain please I didn't say "I", I said "they". Their accounting of the balance sheet goes back to the Crusades and the occupation and politicized division of the Middle East by the West over the past centuries.

i see,
so, the 2000 plus people of mixed ethnicities who died on 9/11 were guilty of oppression on Muslims 600 years ago?
Muslims who were killing Christians and Jews who refused to submit to Islam which bought the Crusaders out of Europe to begin with..
now, I personally believe the Crusaders were in the wrong as were the Spaniards, French and English who came and "discovered" the new world.
but,,it happened. Its over. Acclimation of land, food, water, power on to gold, silver and jewels, have gone on since before  we climbed down from the trees

These people, these terrorists want Islam spread through out the world, to be the only religion, the only acceptable life style period..
As Islam did 1000 years ago and as Christanity did in the same time frame.
Our way is the right way and you must adapt or die, ask how the American Peoples felt about white Europeans 300 years ago..

There is only one way to fight a war of idealolgy. The idea has to be eradicated, ground into the dust and all traces burned and burned again.
Then and only then will this war end.

This has been going on for the last 50 years through out Europe, I have said dozens of times in my life that it will come home and been told I was wrong, well unfortunaly on 9/11 I was proven right.
This "War" will never be over.

until we either bring all Americans home and close our borders or take the gloves of and burn these people out it is going to go on for generations unless we bow down and accept what they want..

I am a veteran, gentlemen.  

I do not kill civilians.

I do not eradicate cultures or populations.

I do not commit genocide.

I do not fail to separate non-combatants from true combatants.

And I do not portend to pass judgement.

I DO defend this nation and her ideals.  And yes, I DO tire of abiding by rules when we are the only ones doing so.  I cannot always tell my enemies from those they cower behind.  I cannot always identify myself through the pain that is war.

But I can always know the difference between honor, honesty, and right and wrong.  I swore an oath back in 1989, and at 35 I have not forgotten that oath.  Sure, I have forgotten the line-by-line promise I raised my hand to.  But the principle behind the ideal of my time in service will never be forgotten - or IGNORED.

We are losing only in the event our confidence is shaken.  Remain diligent in our troops--who answer to our commander-in-chief--and we'll sacrifice ourselves not for the lives of our buddies...  But for the lives of any innocent, culture non-withstanding.  

So for those of you who claim in one breath you support our troops, but in the next suggest executing innocents, remember your hypocrisy.  Your ideals are definately not ours.  

Yes, I want the fighting over.  No real military man wants violence.  We defend peace, not killing.  I'm tired of seeing our soldiers die.

But that's what they signed up to do if it became necessary.  They defend a principle of a nation, not a doctrine of easy victory.  Every one of us that served, especially in Combat Arms, knows the difference.  

Stop the ranting, people.  We know what the hell we signed up for.

Shall we discuss Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Quoted: I am a veteran, gentlemen.   I do not kill civilians. I do not eradicate cultures or populations. I do not commit genocide. I do not fail to separate non-combatants from true combatants. And I do not portend to pass judgement. I DO defend this nation and her ideals.  And yes, I DO tire of abiding by rules when we are the only ones doing so.  I cannot always tell my enemies from those they cower behind.  I cannot always identify myself through the pain that is war. But I can always know the difference between honor, honesty, and right and wrong.  I swore an oath back in 1989, and at 35 I have not forgotten that oath.  Sure, I have forgotten the line-by-line promise I raised my hand to.  But the principle behind the ideal of my time in service will never be forgotten - or IGNORED. We are losing only in the event our confidence is shaken.  Remain diligent in our troops--who answer to our commander-in-chief--and we'll sacrifice ourselves not for the lives of our buddies...  But for the lives of any innocent, culture non-withstanding.   So for those of you who claim in one breath you support our troops, but in the next suggest executing innocents, remember your hypocrisy.  Your ideals are definately not ours.   Yes, I want the fighting over.  No real military man wants violence.  We defend peace, not killing.  I'm tired of seeing our soldiers die. But that's what they signed up to do if it became necessary.  They defend a principle of a nation, not a doctrine of easy victory.  Every one of us that served, especially in Combat Arms, knows the difference.   Stop the ranting, people.  We know what the hell we signed up for.

Good post.  If you cross the line then there is not much distinguishing a terrorist from a soldier anymore.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: where do you figure, we, the United States of America started it?? Centuries ago? explain please I didn't say "I", I said "they". Their accounting of the balance sheet goes back to the Crusades and the occupation and politicized division of the Middle East by the West over the past centuries. "Their" accounting sheet conveniently ignores a millenium of Muslim aggression against Christendom and Europe.  Arabs are indigenous only to the Arabian penninsula.  All the rest came through conquest and expansion.  Modern day Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Lybia, Algeria, and Morocco were all Christian once.  I'll pay attention to their BS once they start discussing the return of anatolia to the Greeks.

Nor are they alone in their movements across the globe and assimilation of territory. That act alone does not make them some sort of evil entity. Recorded history is full of examples of one group expanding into the territories of other civilizations.

Quoted: Quoted: Unless you declare war you are not fighting a war. Really? So what do you call the attack on Pearl Harbor?   After all, Japan had NOT declared WAR yet......

We call it just that, THE ATTACK on Pearl Harbor, not THE WAR ON PEARL HARBOR!!!

Quoted: We lost?  Funny, I don't feel any different.  As long as terrorist, somewhere in the back of their heads, are worried about a JDAM falling on their laps, the war is still being fought.

Yeah no kidding; if we lost you'd think that my life would have changed in the slightest; no draft yet, my daily life hasn't change at all.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: where do you figure, we, the United States of America started it?? Centuries ago? explain please I didn't say "I", I said "they". Their accounting of the balance sheet goes back to the Crusades and the occupation and politicized division of the Middle East by the West over the past centuries. "Their" accounting sheet conveniently ignores a millenium of Muslim aggression against Christendom and Europe.  Arabs WERE AT ONE TIME indigenous only to the Arabian penninsula.  All the rest came through conquest and expansion.  Modern day Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Egypt, Lybia, Algeria, and Morocco were all Christian once.  I'll pay attention to their BS once they start discussing the return of anatolia to the Greeks.

Quoted: I am a veteran, gentlemen.   I do not kill civilians. I do not eradicate cultures or populations. I do not commit genocide. I do not fail to separate non-combatants from true combatants. And I do not portend to pass judgement. I DO defend this nation and her ideals.  And yes, I DO tire of abiding by rules when we are the only ones doing so.  I cannot always tell my enemies from those they cower behind.  I cannot always identify myself through the pain that is war. But I can always know the difference between honor, honesty, and right and wrong.  I swore an oath back in 1989, and at 35 I have not forgotten that oath.  Sure, I have forgotten the line-by-line promise I raised my hand to.  But the principle behind the ideal of my time in service will never be forgotten - or IGNORED. We are losing only in the event our confidence is shaken.  Remain diligent in our troops--who answer to our commander-in-chief--and we'll sacrifice ourselves not for the lives of our buddies...  But for the lives of any innocent, culture non-withstanding.   So for those of you who claim in one breath you support our troops, but in the next suggest executing innocents, remember your hypocrisy.  Your ideals are definately not ours.   Yes, I want the fighting over.  No real military man wants violence.  We defend peace, not killing.  I'm tired of seeing our soldiers die. But that's what they signed up to do if it became necessary.  They defend a principle of a nation, not a doctrine of easy victory.  Every one of us that served, especially in Combat Arms, knows the difference.   Stop the ranting, people.  We know what the hell we signed up for.

A very good post and I agree with most of it. I don't think that innocents should EVER be TARGETED... EVER! But I also don't care for this crap of wringing our hands so much that we rarely get the job done. I am aware of a local guy who's supposedly been shipped home because he's done a lot of "bad stuff" over in the sandbox. Dunno if it's true or not, and I dunno if he's been tried for it, but if he did what he claims to some mutual friends that he did, then he deserves a court martial and life in prison. I don't care what you've been through -- if you knowingly run into a room filled with innocent civilians and mow them down, then you are a cold-blooded murderer. BUT... I am sick and tired of all of this PC-crap and allowing terrorists to re-arm themselves and draw-out the war. You chase them until you catch them and then you KILL them dead -- you don't put them up in Club Gitmo and you don't let them go back home so they can recruit more terrorist bastards. It's really pretty simple...