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Posted: 4/10/2006 11:50:31 AM EDT
[#1]
Blackwater? I dunno, never been to a carbine class.
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:04:45 PM EDT
[#2]
It all depends on what you are looking for. If you want markmanship with an AR. Look into Jim Crews.
If you want HSLD stuff there are quite a number of good instructors. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:06:53 PM EDT
[#3]
In PA, FIRE Institute offers an excellent training class for carbines. Several ARFcom folks have attended and written reviews, myself included. This is a fantastic place to get started.
I also have positive experience with Progressive Force Concepts. Very good instructors as well. Check out the Tactics and training forum. Tony_F, the T&T mod, assists at FIRE. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:07:04 PM EDT
[#4]
tag for future, I'm hoping to get training in the next couple of years.
Yeah, I know, "why the rush?" 
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:12:44 PM EDT
[#5]
I think the opinion is pretty universal that Pat Rogers' courses are grade A, though that might be a little more advanced than you are looking for.
Futuristic |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:21:05 PM EDT
[#6]
I talked to a shooter a couple of weeks ago that attended a Pat Rogers course and he sounded less than impressed...bored even. I guess it all depends on where you are at skill wise.
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:24:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Going to www.fireinstitute.org in June for their basic carbine.. Will let you know how it is. Will be my first one! |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:24:44 PM EDT
[#8]
I've done BW and Pat Goodal, both are excellent.
Bomber |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:29:34 PM EDT
[#9]
how dare you speak ill of Darth Pat. He’s great if you can kill people and you have no fear or concern of prosecution. the best... I vote Clint Smith |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:40:33 PM EDT
[#10]
+1 on FIRE, their instructors are vey good at getting the concept across. I've never heard of a bad word about Thunder Ranch (Clint Smith) but I've not been there. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 12:44:42 PM EDT
[#11]
I attended urban rifle at Thunder Ranch when it was still in Texas, and in my opinion the instruction was very good.
Now that the school has moved to Oregon, class sizes are supposed to be much smaller, so if anything the personal level of instruction should be better. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:00:38 PM EDT
[#12]
What's the word on Yeager? Just curious. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:10:24 PM EDT
[#13]
I have taken two courses from Tactical Response, one of which was taught by Yeager. I had great experiences both times, and will be going back for a third in October. A member here (USMC03) is an instructor for Tactical Response, and he is an incredibly helpful guy who is more than willing to share his knowledge on gear and training with all of us. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:13:33 PM EDT
[#14]
I've taken a couple of classes at Blackwater and been pleased.
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Posted: 4/10/2006 6:29:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Spent 3 days at Blackwater last year (in a class with Aimless) and enjoyed it enough that I'm going back again this fall for a 5 day class.
I recently took a class from Dave Pennington and got a hell of a lot of training for my money. I'm hoping he'll offer more classes next year. |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 7:07:03 PM EDT
[#16]
last time i looked at BW they would not let civvies take advanced classes. has that changed? |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 7:30:30 PM EDT
[#17]
Some classes are restricted, but not many that I would be interested in. www.blackwaterusa.com/training/courses.asp Although I don't think much of those kind of restrictions, if I ever get the time to get through all their open courses I bet I can find somewhere else to take a course on hostage rescue or vehicle stops.  I guess it is worth knowing that Blackwater, at least from the classes I have taken, is geared pretty specifically towards shooting people, there is no stuff about legalities, de-escalating situations or, at least in the basic courses I took, any shoot/no shoot stuff. Personally that's fine with me, but other people might appreciate an exposure to that from some other instructor. Blackwater also seems busier and busier with .gov stuff all the time. I do not know what level of priority civilian training is. edit I see there are various levels of handgun and precision rifle, but not carbine. I wonder if that is because of lack of interest, or what? I am sure they would teach a "Carbine 2" type course if there was interest in it. Huh |
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Posted: 4/10/2006 7:35:36 PM EDT
[#18]
Louis Awerbuck also offers excellent carbine classes. He uses some rather unconventional methods that force you to consider some aspects you may not have otherwise.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 5:13:47 AM EDT
[#19]
that's good to know.
I guess I just had “what if” burned into me early in my training and can’t see much value to “shoot em’ all” training. The way it was explained to me was to put myself in a third person perspective like a witness or a cop and “justify” my actions. I know in Iraq as a contractor I can just about do anything I want to and be covered. In America if I shoot someone on the street the cops are going to want to know why and crawl up my butt with a microscope to find out. Witnesses will tell them what they think happened. Something like this… “I was on my way into the store and this guy was kind of in front of me and he walked up beside a car and another guy got out of the car and shot him.” Or. “I was on my way into the store and this guy was kind of in front of me and he walked up beside a car and the guy in the car told him to “stop”, “drop the knife” the guy kept walking and the guy pulled out a gun and told him to stop again and then shot him. With a witness one way you walk. The other you got to jail. That little phrase of warning makes all the difference in the world. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 7:39:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Larry Vickers, Paul Howe, or Ken Hackathorn...
Clint Smith and Pat Rogers. Jeff Gonzalez is supposed to be pretty good too, but I have no experience there. Some people get all pissy about a class being too "basic." The basics are the foundation and a majority of the people need work on the basics. Lots of people want to do the sims (houses, cqb kind of shit) because its fun (and it is) but they fucking suck at the basics and get bad hits, fuck up their manual of arms, etc. I've taken a bunch of the advanced carbine (and pistol) classes... I still sign up for basic classes every year, it makes you better, and hell, it can't hurt... Hell, I take some of the same classes repeatedly. FWIW: I have heard good things about Yeager, never met him, but I have heard good things about the guy. ETA: Awerbuck is awsome too, I forgot to mention him. But, the best by far is Ken Hackathorn, he is the tactical dali-lama. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 8:08:15 AM EDT
[#21]
Blackwater or Gun Site
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:24:33 AM EDT
[#22]
I would not put a lot of weight on what witnesses claimed happened afterwards. The average dope rarely remembers what happened accurately anyways. I don't want to hi-jack this thread, but some of the "big name" guys who give those types of seminars give some of the most bizarre advice. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 10:58:39 AM EDT
[#23]
Pat Rogers and Larry Mudgett I reccomend, from experience, without the slightest bit of hesitation. Gunsite has a fairly good POI, but it's not aggressive enough for my taste. Many would like their classes though.
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Posted: 4/11/2006 11:34:51 AM EDT
[#24]
Gunsite had threee level of carbine course, 223 Carbine fundimentals, 556 HSLD, and CTP carbine team tactics. After Pat Rogers left Gunsite, the CTp course have not been listed, and hopefully they will have the class open again.
I heard both good and bad about Suarez enough to stay away. Thunder-ranch used to offer 3 and 5 dasy urban rifle when they are in Texas, but have changed to only 3 days only with reduced class size. Pat Rogers EAG now offer some open courses, some of them you can sign up at the 10-8 Forums. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 12:17:57 PM EDT
[#25]
Tactical Response (Yeager' company)
Blackwater ITTS ( Scott Reitz) are 3 very good groups/trainers. Paul Howe was ok. I've done pistol work with Hackathorn, Vickers, Gonzalez, and others but havent had a chance to try their rifle stuff so no opinion there. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:01:00 PM EDT
[#26]
I was just wondering about the "not well thought of". I've spoken with James Yeager many times and he always seemed like a knowlegable, professional guy who always made time to answer my stupid questions. Never took one of his classes though. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 4:16:55 PM EDT
[#27]
Some people, 'Chairborne Rangers' and Internet Commandos aspiring to become mall ninjas so far as I've seen, feel that his performance as a contractor in Iraq was substandard. Specifically during incident where Jay Hunt was KIA. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 5:22:38 PM EDT
[#28]
tagged for later
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Posted: 4/11/2006 5:33:00 PM EDT
[#29]
Actually everyone that is a contractor thinks that too. So does everyone in the military. At least everyone I've talked to (which is a lot) I'd stick with guys that know how to win fights. Guys like Pat Rogers, Clint Smith, and Ken Hackathorn. Gunsite and Thunder Ranch have the best general courses IMO. The question is not as easy as it may seem though. Where are you starting? How much money and time do you have? What is your end goal? What is your mission? etc. , etc. |
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Posted: 4/11/2006 5:36:09 PM EDT
[#30]
You need thick skin in his classes because he gives you the Patton treatment. The general consensus from people who have taken his class is that it's a lot of fun and good training, and 80% sign up to go back. |
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