I know little to nothing of either style of sword fighting, nor of the rules involved in each in terms of keeping "points" to determine the victor of sanctioned matches....

But to get to brass tacks...how to they compare in terms of lethality?

Based upon the little bit I know, Kendo involves a two handed katana type weapon, whereas Fencing involves a lighter weight one handed..."foil" I believe to be the term...weapon of choice.

Seems to me that Fencing has the advantage of speed, whereas Kendo has an advantage of more control with two hands, plus the weight in the weapon and therefore more of a bludgeoning effect, and possibly overcoming the defenses the foil has to offer.

So, take the theoretical battle of two people equally disciplined in their style of choice, who might have the edge?

Thank you for your time.  All commentary is welcomed and encouraged.

 

I believe Kendo wins every time, but it's hard to talk to "lethality" when kendo is a very stylized sport.

Kendo is extremely fast, btw, and the lack of real defensive moves makes it far more agressive than fencing, which I think it part of the reason that a kenshi would defeat a fencer nine times out of 10.



ETA:  That said, I've never sparred against a fencer (mostly because they are afraid of getting hurt )

They would probably both lose.

Kendo sparring ("Geiko?" sp?) has almost nothing to do with the martial application of the katana.

Simply put, there are things you can (and must) do with a bamboo shinai that have zero applicability to a much heaver steel katana.

Of course, Kendo forms (kata) are 100% practical.

Perhaps what you might look for is Kenjutsu if you're interested in learning actual application of the katana.

Kendo's primary contribution to martial training is that I find it to be an excellent way to develop "warrior spirit".  Lots of yelling, crushing your enemies, and listening to the lamentations of their women.

ETA:

Also, there are multiple styles of fencing.  Sabre is drastically different I believe, I have not done fencing so I can't comment much.

If you judge each competitor by his point system (IE kendoka scores kendo points, fencer scores fencing points) neither one of them will be able to adequately defend against the other.

Quoted: I believe Kendo wins every time, but it's hard to talk to "lethality" when kendo is a very stylized sport. Kendo is extremely fast, btw, and the lack of real defensive moves makes it far more agressive than fencing, which I think it part of the reason that a kenshi would defeat a fencer nine times out of 10. ETA:  That said, I've never sparred against a fencer (mostly because they are afraid of getting hurt )

Well one day we will have to get together and see, I have alway wondered how it would turn out.

Depends on the conditions.  Fencing developed with the idea of one on one combat versus an unarmored combatant.  Hence the reason why the sword or rapier was very light.  Given that it evolved over a few centuries, IIRC, its probably very effective for those circumstances.  The Katana was designed to defeat armor in a battle, and it does very well in that regard.  I don't think I'd automatically assume that the Samuri would win just because its from the east.

Quoted: They would probably both lose.

Aaaah - but in that case, the kenshi would still have won.    If he "kills" his oppenent, it is irrelevant is he dies himself.  

If a kenshi were to go for a big men (head) strike (the most common strike in kendo), he would without a doubt score a hit on the fencer, but at the cost of being impaled on the fencer's foil.

It really woudl depend on the scoring.  If all kendo strikes are allowed, then the kenshi would likely be able to score kote (wrist) hits without the fencer being able to prevent it - since I don't believe that's a legitimate point in fencing, so there's little defense against a cutting strike, designed to take off your hand (at least, that woudl be my guess).

If I had several years training in saber w/ parrying dagger, I would gladly go up against somebody who had similar training in Kendo. That is, sabre-foil and similarly constructed parrying dagger against bokken, both wearing the proper equipment, because I don't want to lose an eye.

Once you get really close in, a sabre is far more effective than a katana, and a knife is even better than both.*
*That's just been my experience studying fights rather than fighting. Not movie fights either, spars and records of real fights.

Quoted: Quoted: I believe Kendo wins every time, but it's hard to talk to "lethality" when kendo is a very stylized sport. Kendo is extremely fast, btw, and the lack of real defensive moves makes it far more agressive than fencing, which I think it part of the reason that a kenshi would defeat a fencer nine times out of 10. ETA:  That said, I've never sparred against a fencer (mostly because they are afraid of getting hurt ) Well one day we will have to get together and see, I have alway wondered how it would turn out.

One of you may get it in the ass

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I believe Kendo wins every time, but it's hard to talk to "lethality" when kendo is a very stylized sport. Kendo is extremely fast, btw, and the lack of real defensive moves makes it far more agressive than fencing, which I think it part of the reason that a kenshi would defeat a fencer nine times out of 10. ETA:  That said, I've never sparred against a fencer (mostly because they are afraid of getting hurt ) Well one day we will have to get together and see, I have alway wondered how it would turn out. One of you may get it in the ass

If he scored a point with his foil, he could honestly brag that he had poked me.  

Kendo invloves a Katana type sword, Fencing uses 3 types foil,epee and sabre. To matche the blade style to kendo you would have to match a sabre to a katana. A foil is a rapier type sword and is more for stabbing where is a katana and a sabre do both.



sorry for the spelling......it's martini night

Quoted: Kendo invloves a Katana type sword, Fencing uses 3 types foil,epee and sabre. To matche the blade style to kendo you would have to match a sabre to a katana. A foil is a rapier type sword and is more for stabbing where is a katana and a sabre do both. sorry for the spelling......it's martini night

If you fence with a sabre, are you required to wear an eyepatch and have a parrot present, or is that just a viscious kendo rumor?

Quoted: Quoted: Kendo invloves a Katana type sword, Fencing uses 3 types foil,epee and sabre. To matche the blade style to kendo you would have to match a sabre to a katana. A foil is a rapier type sword and is more for stabbing where is a katana and a sabre do both. sorry for the spelling......it's martini night If you fence with a sabre, are you required to wear an eyepatch and have a parrot present, or is that just a viscious kendo rumor?

that would be a cutlass.....aaaargh

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Kendo invloves a Katana type sword, Fencing uses 3 types foil,epee and sabre. To matche the blade style to kendo you would have to match a sabre to a katana. A foil is a rapier type sword and is more for stabbing where is a katana and a sabre do both. sorry for the spelling......it's martini night If you fence with a sabre, are you required to wear an eyepatch and have a parrot present, or is that just a viscious kendo rumor? that would be a cutlass.....aaaargh

My mistake!    I'm so embarassed I will go and immediately disembowel myself!!  

So for a sabre you have to ride a horse and wear a Hussar or other cavalry outfit?  That would be sweet!!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Kendo invloves a Katana type sword, Fencing uses 3 types foil,epee and sabre. To matche the blade style to kendo you would have to match a sabre to a katana. A foil is a rapier type sword and is more for stabbing where is a katana and a sabre do both. sorry for the spelling......it's martini night If you fence with a sabre, are you required to wear an eyepatch and have a parrot present, or is that just a viscious kendo rumor? that would be a cutlass.....aaaargh My mistake!    I'm so embarassed I will go and immediately disembowel myself!!   So for a sabre you have to ride a horse and wear a Hussar or other cavalry outfit?  That would be sweet!!

That shore is a purty mustache there matey........

I think that it would all depend on how the rules were set out.
A bit difficult like comparing American football and soccer.

Even Kendo has many kinds of styles, such as 2 long swords, one long and one short.
If one was to use a real katana, some have one or two short throwing daggers built in to the grip.

I don't know much about fencing, but I suppose that there are different styles too.

I've done a jujutsu related art involving shinai training, and saber and foil.  I confess not to having done kendo, although I went to a kendo school once to see whether I wanted to try it.

Note that the epee is the trainer for duels - everything is a target. Saber, everything above the waist. Foil, chest, basically. Sabre's a real flashy cowboy weapon - your non-dominant hand is held behind you, as it's a target.  You can do fun things like bop your blade off your opponent's inside his guard and against his mask to score a point.

Both are artificial (Kendo and fencing) reductions of what was originally force-on-force training for combat.  The foil and sabre represent the courtsword and cavalry saber used ahorse, the epee's more like the rapier, and is considerably different from sword-and-hanger and other renaissance martial arts.  Japanese sword's designed primarily against lamellar armor, etc.  

I understand your question and what you're really asking is 'between opponents of equal skill/strength/mass/reach, one using a katana, the other the equivalent renaissance western sword, who would win?'

Of course, the guy with the .45 would. ;)  

Seriously, it's a really cool thought experiment, though.

Rapier against katana.  Fundamental principles are the same; Sir Richard Burton (author 'Book of the Sword') thought that the thrusting weapon had an advantage.  I think it'd be down to whoever was more skilled at dealing with distance, parries...endurance, and luck. Metallurgy might be involved. I am speculating, of course.  Another thought (edit) is that parries aren't often occuring at right angles - you're making glancing contact to deflect the blade just enough. (There's a cool move called the 'glissade' wherein you pop the tip of your weapon inside your opponent's guard - e.g. kill zone - and just run your blade down quickly, sliding along the inside of his blade (and rendering it harmless to you by so doing).).  Fun fun.

We need to get 20 kendo guys and 20 fencers drunk at a Renn faire and see what happens.

I know quite a bit about fencing and was a 'B' rated Epeeist at one time. Twice I finished in the top 16 at US Nationals.

There are 3 types of traditional sport fencing (Olympic fencing).
Foil- modern foil has thin, light flexible blade which is rectangular in cross-section.
It is a thrusting weapon with points are only scored with the tip, valid points are only scored in the torso (above the hips excluding arms, excluding head, but it does "V" into the groin...lucky you!).
This was originally used to teach the basics of armed duelling, thus the target area. Most importantly it is a 'right of way' weapon which means that if someone starts an attack on you your first obligation is to parry before counter-attacking. Consequently if you counter-attack and hit first but your opponent still scores...you lose.
It has virtually no modern application to armed combat, watch Olympic fencing and you won't even understand what you're seeing. When I was in fencing a few years ago the statement came out that in the Olympics the only thing faster than the tip of an foil was a rifle bullet....I don't know the veracity of this but it is incredibly fast, often it doesn't even show up on instant replay.

But my overall sentiment is...foil is for wrapping turkey.


Epee- this is as close as you get to a classic duelling weapon (both in build and execution). It is also a thrusting weapon but the blade is stiffer, stronger and "V-shaped" in cross-section and with a large bellguard which covers/protects your hand. The entire body is a target, and most importantly there is no 'right of way'. First hit scores, and both opponenets can score double hits if both points land within 1/25th of a second of one-another.
It's the most no-BS of the three weapons, you see it, you hit it, you win. It's an eye-opener if you're watching the guys blade near your hand and all of sudden his point has rocked your head back...."hmmm, that wouldn't have been pretty.."
In some duels the edges were sharpened and the unused hand would hold: nothing, a shorter blade often optimized for breaking other blades or a length of silk fabric to entagle the other persons blad.

Sabre- modern sabre has a thin flexible blade which is also rectangular in cross-section. Hits can be scored with the tip but it is primarily an edged weapon and most people train this way. The guard (almost) completely covers the hand. The target is the entire body above the hips (I've heard this is the area that would be exposed if you were on horseback). Unfortunately sabre is also a right-of-way weapon but the blade is so light that it too is incredibly fast.

Again if you don't know what you're watching you won't understand what you're seeing.

As to your question:
Of the three, if you were going to fight someone sight-unseen you'd DEFINITELY want an edged + pointed weapon. You would NEVER EVER choose a foil as a real weapon, it was intended strictly as a training tool. Epee might have a shot since the key is survival and against an aggressive attacker you would manage your distance and counter-attack at the right time. Who knows.

But Olympic style Sabre REALLY rewards aggressiveness and the attacker always take priority. The weapon is fast and light and your hand is also well protected. I only dabbled at sabre and am unrated in that weapon so I won't be arranging a cage-match with DK anytime soon to find out.

Strangely enough I suppose both sports (kendo and fencing) both came out with the intention of training people to try to kill one another with a blade.

I haven't watched enough kendo to understand it, it looks aggresive but somewhat stiff and formal. Then again maybe that's just the because I don't understand it well enough.

With actual weapons, fencing.
The ability to pierce in a very quick manner should not be underestimated.

Quoted: With actual weapons, fencing. The ability to pierce in a very quick manner should not be underestimated.

Agreed.  In most matches between a foil and a shina, I imagine that the kenshi would be pierced/struck as his strike was coming down.  If the point were to go to the first strike (and not be a practical matter of who woudl die - in which case the answer would be both), the point should go to the fencer - since it should be easy to strike the attacking kenshi.  The basic men strike involves the kenshi throwing his entire body forward, while raising his arms up to strike down on the head, while his forward momentum provides the "cutting" movement.  As he is coming forward, and raising his arms - his entire chest/torso will be exposed, and an accomplished fencer should score, I imagine - immediately followed by having his head split open .

However - it is worth noting that one of the eight basic strikes in kendo is a thrust to the throat - the tsuki strike.  With the two handed kendo stance, it is an instantenous burst forward, where the arms are extended out from the basic guard (kamae) position.

What about a big burly Scotsman and a Claymore?

Kendo Against a Small Sword? --->Small Sword.

Reason, The Small Sword is lighter and uses less motion for Parrying and can quickly turn a parry into a Riposte (Counter Attack) with multiple feints. They are blindingly  fast (double beat). Think of an Epee but with an edge.

A Rapier (although slower:single beat) could probably take on a japanese swordsman as long as they remain at a distance. Reason: The Rapier primarily was used as a Point Weapon and they were rather long. Additionally many of the gaurds on a rapier were designed to trap an opponents blade.

Quoted: Kendo Against a Small Sword? --->Small Sword. Reason, The Small Sword is lighter and uses less motion for Parrying and can quickly turn a parry into a Riposte (Counter Attack) with multiple feints. They are blindingly  fast (double beat). Think of an Epee but with an edge.

Parrying a katana with a small sword would be an interesting feat.

Paging SteyrAUG, Paging SteyrAUG...

From apocryphal sources....

I was told that a fencing master and a master iaidoka had a mock duel and it was a draw as they each knew that the first guy to make a move would result in a fatal blow.. so no blows were struck by either... if u understand what i am saying. Each waited for the other to move so they could counter... and neither would make that first move.

Look up Masters of Defense... it is not Olympic fencing but historically accurate fencing as practiced by rapier and dagger fighters. As taught by Saviolo (sp) and Silver and Morazzo.


Dram out


36-38+ inch full on rapier will do u in rather well, and a katana will remove your melon in 1/3 of a second... not pretty either way.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Kendo invloves a Katana type sword, Fencing uses 3 types foil,epee and sabre. To matche the blade style to kendo you would have to match a sabre to a katana. A foil is a rapier type sword and is more for stabbing where is a katana and a sabre do both. sorry for the spelling......it's martini night If you fence with a sabre, are you required to wear an eyepatch and have a parrot present, or is that just a viscious kendo rumor? that would be a cutlass.....aaaargh

...and when a "touch" is scored while fencing with a cutlass, the victor waves his blade under the loser's nose and gives the victory cry of "Can Ye smell it???"

Quoted: If a kenshi were to go for a big men (head) strike (the most common strike in kendo), he would without a doubt score a hit on the fencer, but at the cost of being impaled on the fencer's foil.

From my brief exposure to both arts, this is what I'd bet on. Two deaths, one from a head blow, the other from an abdomen shot.

I've considered studying kendo and fencing in more depth. But I've decided on arnis. Not so specialized or sport-oriented.

Fencing

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3412142143989165138&q=epee&pl=true

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6699929471522745053&q=fencing+champion&pl=true

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5396021508615883493&q=fencing+sabre&pl=true


Kendo

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1116087769182224295&q=kendo&pl=true

Lots of other kendo links to the right side of linked page.

Quoted: From apocryphal sources.... I was told that a fencing master and a master iaidoka had a mock duel and it was a draw as they each knew that the first guy to make a move would result in a fatal blow.. so no blows were struck by either... if u understand what i am saying. Each waited for the other to move so they could counter... and neither would make that first move. Look up Masters of Defense... it is not Olympic fencing but historically accurate fencing as practiced by rapier and dagger fighters. As taught by Saviolo (sp) and Silver and Morazzo. Dram out 36-38+ inch full on rapier will do u in rather well, and a katana will remove your melon in 1/3 of a second... not pretty either way.

can't remember the source--it may have been an intro to one of the musashi translations i have scattered about, but it stated that in the 16th-17th centuries, this was a normal setup for an engagement.

the two opponents would simply circle, trying to project their ki and willpower.  usually, the less disciplined man would attack first, and die on the riposte.  true masters almost never fought.

sounds reasonable.

Quoted: Kendo video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1116087769182224295&q=kendo&pl=true Lots of other kendo links to the right side of linked page.

Those guys sucked

First Samurais rarely fought head to head for a long periods of time.  You got sliced and diced and were out.

I really dont think anything will win against a well trained samauri.

Also isnt fenching largely of phrench origin? Enough said.

Quoted: Kendo video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1116087769182224295&q=kendo&pl=true

OHH!!!! So that's kendo!

I've seen dudes doing that stuff before...



"..lightning bolt! lightning bolt! lightning bolt!!!.."

Quoted: Quoted: Kendo video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1116087769182224295&q=kendo&pl=true OHH!!!! So that's kendo! I've seen dudes doing that stuff before... biomechine.net/larppics/gargoyles.jpeg "..lightning bolt! lightning bolt! lightning bolt!!!.."

Aaaaahh !!  LARPers.  

Quoted: Quoted: [ Well one day we will have to get together and see, I have alway wondered how it would turn out. Okay...I propose a match: Stoner Student vs. DK Prof. Uniform:  Aloha shirts, Speedo trunks and wooden shoes. Headgear: SS wears a pirate's tricorn, DK wears a bearskin shako. Venue: Wading pool filled with 6-12" of Jello Weapons" "Funoodles" (preferably in neon colors) Stoner has to wear an eyepatch and a stuffed parrot on one shoulder DK has to keep a tulip clamped between his teeth at all times I'll be selling DVDs of the event.....should be interesting.

That is an absolutely terrifying visual image.

You are a sick person!



So what percentage would I get?

Quoted: I know little to nothing of either style of sword fighting, nor of the rules involved in each in terms of keeping "points" to determine the victor of sanctioned matches.... But to get to brass tacks...how to they compare in terms of lethality? Based upon the little bit I know, Kendo involves a two handed katana type weapon, whereas Fencing involves a lighter weight one handed..."foil" I believe to be the term...weapon of choice. Seems to me that Fencing has the advantage of speed, whereas Kendo has an advantage of more control with two hands, plus the weight in the weapon and therefore more of a bludgeoning effect, and possibly overcoming the defenses the foil has to offer. So, take the theoretical battle of two people equally disciplined in their style of choice, who might have the edge? Thank you for your time.  All commentary is welcomed and encouraged.

I actually have the answer...

It depends upon the talent of the practioneer.

If student A is a more adept fencer he will always defeat student B. The reverse is also true.

There is no superior style, or it would be the only one that exists. There are only superior fencers.

By it's very classification as a "style" or "method" restrictions and applications of various styles are created. The "style" with "fewer" restrictions is generally superior depending upon how practical those inherent limitations are in a given circumstance.

Quoted: Quoted: [ Well one day we will have to get together and see, I have alway wondered how it would turn out. Okay...I propose a match: Stoner Student vs. DK Prof. Uniform:  Aloha shirts, Speedo trunks and wooden shoes. Headgear: SS wears a pirate's tricorn, DK wears a bearskin shako. Venue: Wading pool filled with 6-12" of Jello Weapons" "Funoodles" (preferably in neon colors) Stoner has to wear an eyepatch and a stuffed parrot on one shoulder DK has to keep a tulip clamped between his teeth at all times I'll be selling DVDs of the event.....should be interesting.

And here I thought I had seen everything after my trip to Amsterdam.  

Try this again. Still looking for a really good Kendo vid. Kendo looks like fun, but the armor seems like it takes a lot away in the movement and speed.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2743550551292712726&q=kendo&pl=true


This looks like fun. Don't know if they have any training at all, but it looks like it would be good for footwork and hand/eye.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8404805743659543234&q=RSW&pl=true

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8777732939420947976&q=RSW&pl=true

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5795042419349117767&q=sparring&pl=true

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5387226847170921869&q=RSW&pl=true


Just found these, give you an idea of how fast the boken can be moved. Guy has really good control and speed.

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6737089295844258387&q=kenjutsu&pl=true

video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4713641525503529255&q=kenjutsu&pl=true

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE HIGHLANDER

I don't know much about it, but Kendo looks to be kick ass and fun as hell

Quoted: There is no superior style, or it would be the only one that exists. There are only superior fencers.

Does not apply to fencing or kendo, as neither are practical styles.    One can be vastly superior to the other but not supercede it.  For example, take football and soccer.  Football is a vastly superior sport to soccer, yet soccer still lives on for furriners and small children.

Given modern medical technology, I'd say a poke to the abdomen is a lot more survivable than a half-sliced-open head.

Quoted: Epee- this is as close as you get to a classic duelling weapon (both in build and execution). It is also a thrusting weapon but the blade is stiffer, stronger and "V-shaped" in cross-section and with a large bellguard which covers/protects your hand. The entire body is a target, and most importantly there is no 'right of way'. First hit scores, and both opponenets can score double hits if both points land within 1/25th of a second of one-another. It's the most no-BS of the three weapons, you see it, you hit it, you win. It's an eye-opener if you're watching the guys blade near your hand and all of sudden his point has rocked your head back...."hmmm, that wouldn't have been pretty.." In some duels the edges were sharpened and the unused hand would hold: nothing, a shorter blade often optimized for breaking other blades or a length of silk fabric to entagle the other persons blad.

I remember those bastards from the fencing class I took in college.  My opponent and I both lunged at the same instant, putting all of our strength into it.  Made a set of impressive bruises.

Quoted: Quoted: There is no superior style, or it would be the only one that exists. There are only superior fencers. Does not apply to fencing or kendo, as neither are practical styles.    One can be vastly superior to the other but not supercede it.

One of the things I really like about kendo is the lack of practical application - it means that you AVOID at lot of the jerks you often see in martial arts, who want to learn how to beat up the other kids in the neighborhood, or who are trying to compensate for being short or whatever.  I've met a LOT of really nice, interesting and fascinating folks in kendo.  

Of course, occasionally you get the samurai-worshipping Kouresawa-kid who wants to flail around and be a ninja, but the rigorous (and often quite boring) and physically demanding kendo training often drives them off quite quickly.






I'm not even going to dignify your delusional and petty attack on the greatest sport in the world with a response.  

Excellent thread, prolly an AR15.com classic.

One thing I know for sure, you don't want to get stabbed in the pancreas - you might not live long, and while you are alive, it will be painful.

I used to be a good fencer and I fenced regularly...

I've never seen Kendo but, I knew several people in my club who were also into that...

Whoever has faster reaction, prior resolution, more experience, better physical condition and imagination will win.

Wait until the other guy moves, avoid his blow, and deliver the death blow.  Fin.

Quoted: Wait until the other guy moves, avoid his blow, and deliver the death blow.  Fin.

Cool - I'll just do that from now on.  Thanks.    

Quoted: Quoted: Wait until the other guy moves, avoid his blow, and deliver the death blow.  Fin. Cool - I'll just do that from now on.  Thanks.

My strategy is to wait until the other guy moves, avoid his blow, and then kick him in the nuts and whip out my forty to finish him off.

This is a tough one.  Obviously, the eastern martial tradition is pretty kickass, yet the western martial tradition gave the ultimate expression of badassery, the Pirate.  It all comes down to the age old Pirate vs. Ninja debate.

ETA:

ElCamino: dude ElCamino: how fucking funny ElCamino: would it be ElCamino: to just run into the middle of a kendo class ElCamino: with a band of pirates