User Panel
Posted: 3/29/2006 5:00:00 AM EDT
Congress Told of More ATF Abuses, Reforms Suggested
Shok |
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I have no I dea what to say, other than good fucking luck!
They are laughing at the GOVT and anyone who opposes them Resistance is futile! |
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The ATF representative present at the hearing did not address Lara's case, but Kristen Rand, legislative director for the anti-gun Violence Policy Center, did.
"Mr. [sic] Lara's situation sounds extremely unpleasant," Rand said, "but we should be careful not to just legislate based on one anecdote." You have got to be fucking kidding me, isn't that all VPC does? |
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You dont need to live in WWII germany to see a brown shirt. Just visit any ATF office
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There is no doubt that this agency needs clear guidance, serious reform and alot of common sense. The key problem is that the agency attracts two kinds of cops. Those who are very pro gun and joined because they have a genuine interest in firearms, and those who are very anti gun and will go out of their way to make life difficult for gun dealers and owners because they see it as their duty to make sure guns are not used in crimes. Which one you get on any particular day is luck of the draw.
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These three items are never allowed in a goverment organization. The best we can hope for is the agency is eliminated, and it's duties are absorbed by other agencies. What will probably happen as usually happens in these instances, their powers, and their budget will be increased. |
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The BATFE has been needing a good slap in the head for decades. Their outright harrassment of people needs to stop.
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+1 And here you go... Gun owners ATF |
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I seriously doubt the ATF is driven " because they see it as their duty to make sure guns are not used in crimes." They dont want to prevent crimes, they want ALL possesion of firearms banned for anyone except the Military, Law Enforcement or Government.
They are not our friends, they do not serve the public, they are no more than JBT's. They are bullies who hold the 2A in utter contempt and want to TAKE gun, not prevent crimes being committed with them |
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Actually, if you talk to the BATFE guys themselves, most could care less one way or the other. They are given the job of enforcing the laws. How strictly they are enforced is usually a management level decision, but the agency itself and its agents generally could care less one way or the other. |
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A congressional report said that 75% of ATF prosecutions were minor technical violations that bordered on entrapment, or paperwork mistakes. This would not be middle management telling people to do things, but front line agents fishing for cases. It wasn't management going through the FFL records and randomly deciding Lt. Lara had made a straw purchase, but a "BATFE guy". |
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+1 |
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Congress "suggests" reforms..............none will ever really happen! Congress is simply trying to quiet the peasants.........the OverLord ATF will NEVER be reigned in! |
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How can our tax money support an organization such as the ATF? We have dumped millions, more likely billions of dollars into them, and they still fail to supply and stand stand behind a solid ruling on many key issues for the average firearm owner.
The fact that ten people can request information and get ten extremely different answers (which may have extreme consequences) says volumes itself. The whole organization is a cluster fuck of ignorance and general bias against The Second Amendment and the American firearm owner. Luckily, they have been continuously digging themselves in a hole as of late. The ATF is the type of organization that won't last due to their own faults. I'd be willing to bet the ATF will receive a make over in the next ten years. God knows they need it. |
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As in..........let the ATF fight their way out of a burning "compound" !!!!!! |
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Wonder why the FCC never busts down doors for people saying "fuck" on the radio? Hell, you have a mouth and a dirty mind, sounds like "constructive intent" to cuss on the radio to me!
But we have free speech! <sigh> |
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That includes every gun law that came after the Second Amendment came into being. |
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Very hypocritical considering how badly they have managed the NFA registry |
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In the Federal LEO community, BATFE agents are the bottom of the barrel -- their agents could not make the cut to get in the FBI, USSS, etc. The tales of excesses I read confirm that belief.
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Kharn |
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Re-read the following part, shotar. It seems to contradict your statement.
I know that we seem to see conspiracy everywhere when it comes to Gov;'t and firearms, but damn... it's hard not to. The only thing that gives me hope, is the wave of Castle Doctrin-ology and CCW bills sweeping the nation's state legislatures right now. |
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I'm not sure I agree 100%. Do biological weapons count as "arms"? Is it reasonable for the governmet to restrict accest to calibers over .50? IF they imposed restrictions on caliber greater than .50, but left everything smaller unrestricted, I would think it would be hard to say the gov't is infringing on the "right". And is it all a moot point anyhow? When lasers/phasers, whatever, become the weapon of choice, will the government decide they are not "arms", so they can be infringed completely? |
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Maybe not........but when the ATF screwed up at Waco the FBI and all the other Feds did EVERYTHING in their power to come to their rescue. The ATF may be "bottom of the LEO barrel" but they still rank better than any peasant on the FedGov scale! |
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Why .50? Why not .4999999 or .50000001? A caliber criteria will always be arbitrary and unjust. I think it is cut and dry what the 2A allows us to own. As long as a person can 'bear' the arm, it is our right to own it. That would include all small-arms and some medium and heavy weapons that are man-portable. Once something is no longer operable by one or two people, but crew-served/towed or requires a fixed mounting; it no longer falls under the 2A. Things like light machine guns, medium/GPMG's and heavy, but man portable MG's are our right to own. I even feel things like RPG's, light mortars, and small caliber recoil-less rifles fall under the 2A. A Flame-thrower is really not a 'fire'arm, and biological/chemical weapons are really not 'arms' in the sense of the 2A as they are usually delivered in the form of large rockets/missles or bombs. It is debatable if a handgrenade falls under the 2A, as it is an explosive device and not an 'arm'. |
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Apparently the ATF doesn’t want the police to be able to own firearms; this guy was a police officer! His life is ruined, he’s in debit, and has no career. How long will it be before the ATF knocks on some ones door and charges then with machinegun charges because they have an AR 15, a drill, and the knowledge to drill a hole? No auto sear, nothing, and your still going to court. I’ve never heard of the ATF saying "sorry we screw your life up". |
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Why did they start the investigation to begin with? It says they were looking through records, but what exactly would have caused them to home in on this one individual?
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That's a little bit of double talk there. |
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Something stupid in the paperwork. At one FFL I used to work at, the agents picked up on the same shit mentioned in the article during an audit. 'Y' or 'N' instead of 'Yes' and 'No.' The fact that someone forgot to write their county in the address box on the old 4473. Simple clerical errors that anyone on Firday afternoon after a 60 hour week can make. Simple oversights you can make when checking over your 50th form for the day. They went through five years of 4473s while they were there, and when all was said and done, out of the several thousand of forms they pawed through, the incidents they brought to our attention were still well within only one percent. The place wasn't shut down, but was threatened with it, etc., et al. Like the example in the article, this particular FFL had a better than 99 percent accuracy rating. I jump on the bandwagon with whomever cried 'hypocrisy' a few posts up when they mentioned the NFA Registry. |
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Well now I know why FFL's are so anal about that paperwork. |
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Yep. Because the dipshit bean-counters that ATF sends out to do these audits are dumbasses. A lot of the ones that i've seen and talked to aren't even gun people. The ones we dealt with sure weren't. We had to hold their hands through the whole thing, and prove that the inventory was what it was. Most people on this board can be shown an 870, and tell what it is without needing the verify the make and model. You had to physically point out where 'Remington 870' was engraved on the receiver to these people, much less the serial number. They sat at a table with the bound book in front of them, while we all played 'servant to the master' and had to bring every damned thing to them, and show them how to identify it. I was not impressed. |
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Dang. One would think a BATFE firearms inspector was a pro or anti gun person. |
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1) The second amendment says arms, not firearms. Do you know what arms are? Weapons. Before guns came out, swords, spears, crossbows, bows, knives, maces, clubs, basically every fricking weapon is an arm. So your arbitrary definition of arms as only including firearms is pretty frickin' retarded. 2) A flamethrower definitely counts as an arm. It's a weapon. Actually, it only counts as a weapon in California; in every other state they're unrestricted (though the ignitors for certain models are counted as destructive devices). 3) Bear does not mean "I can carry this in my arms" either. It means "possess", "use", etc. Dear gosh, buy a fucking dictionary. Why can I use an M-60, a grenade launcher, or USAS-12, but I can't use anything that comes with a tripod or wheels attached? What is the reasoning behind this? Why arbitrarily restrict what we can use? Civilians were allowed to own cannons and were in fact GIVEN cannons by the very men who signed the second amendment into existence. I'm pretty sure cannons count as heavy weapons that require a crew to operate. 4) A hand grenade is an arm. It's a weapon, numbnuts. The ATF counts gun powder as an explosive, so does that fall under the second amendment or should we not include it since it's an explosive and not an arm? 5) It doesn't matter what the delivery system is, if it's a weapon it falls under the second amendment. "Oh, chemical/biological weapons don't count because they're usually delivered on target as bombs or rockets". Right after you said RPG's and mortars are included. Congratulations, you win the "I'm A Fucking Moron" award for the day. |
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You'd think it would be one side of the fence or the other, wouldn't you? And a number of them are. This was good and bad, mind you. Good, because these folks had no real agenda. They were just there, doing a job. No (visible) anti-gun bias. Bad, because they damned sure were clueless. And that bothered me. You should at least know the damned industry and its product if you're going to police it. |
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Holy shit, dude. That's...Pretty damned funny. |
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