Link
Looks like the .gov needs more of our hard earned money and wants to know where we go.

The founding fathers would form a lynch mob if they were around for this crap.

Mileage tax proposed for state's drivers
Opponents include privacy advocates and owners of hybrid vehicles.


FUNDING QUESTIONS: Toyota Prius owner John Luster thinks tax money should not be used only for building roads, but for efficient transportation systems. Other drivers of hybrids oppose the California Performance Review idea to tax drivers based on the miles they drive.
PAUL E. RODRIGUEZ, THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER


By HANH KIM QUACH
The Orange County Register

John Luster of Orange piloted his new silver Toyota Prius 300 miles up to the Sequoia National Park earlier this month, using just six gallons of gasoline.

Had Luster driven his Acura Integra, he would have used twice as much fuel - and paid twice as much gas tax.

But what's good for Luster (and the environment) is bad for state highway funds: The state got half as much tax revenue to deal with the same amount of wear and tear on the roads.

It's a looming problem as hybrids become more popular, and Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's government-reform commission has come up with a solution: Tax motorists based on the miles they drive, not the amount of gas they consume.

The idea from the California Performance Review is just that at this point: an idea. It would have to go through extensive debate to come to fruition.

But it's not at all far-fetched. Oregon will do a test run of such a "vehicle- miles traveled" system next year.

The plan, which still requires legislative approval there, would put a $100 global- positioning-system device in every new car in Oregon. The device would beam drivers' in-state mileage to a satellite, which would then send the information to the service station where the driver is refueling so the proper tax can be levied at the pump.

Three hundred drivers will be monitored for six months next year in the Eugene area in the pilot project. The U.S. Department of Transportation, Utah, New York and now California are closely watching for the results.

The proposal here raises a number of concerns: One is that it could discourage drivers from buying fuel-efficient cars. Another is that it could open the door to state surveillance of motorists.

THE RECOMMENDATIONS

The California Performance Review Commission recommends developing a pilot project to test whether the state could levy a user fee based on how uch each driver uses roads. The report suggests a fee of .1 cents per mile traveled.

"You're setting up a system of surveillance allegedly to aid with taxation," said Annalee Newitz, policy analyst for the San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation. "This is incredibly invasive."

This door has already been opened, though - sometimes by motorists themselves.

Security and convenience have already prompted thousands to mount trackable electronic devices in their vehicles.

LoJack security devices, mini radio transceivers mounted on an automobile, can be activated by authorities when a vehicle is stolen. Toll transponders and radio-frequency identifications help commuters pay tolls on the fly. And OnStar, the 24-hour help line, locates a vehicle using a global-positioning system and gives live assistance when drivers are lost or need help.

By and large, however, these technologies are used voluntarily.

James Whitty, who heads the Oregon pilot project for the state's transportation department, maintains the GPS would detect only whether the car is inside or outside of Oregon and how many miles it has traveled in state - not its every movement.

"There are people who hear 'GPS,' and they think it's some exotic military device," said Whitty, who said the state will not have the ability, or desire, to monitor drivers' traveling habits. The Oregon device would be a "glorified compass," he said.

Joan Borucki, chief deputy director at the California Transportation Commission and a member of the California Performance Review team that made the recommendation here, insists the device could not track residents' whereabouts.

"The bottom line is, they couldn't tell where these people have been. That's just not going to be there," she said.

The key question for some is what happens with the data the state does collect. The answer in the case of toll-collection devices already in use is that it can end up in the hands of law enforcement.

Motorists in Orange County, for example, can use FasTrak transponders mounted on their windshields to pay tolls on the Eastern, San Joaquin and Foothill toll roads. The FasTrak application tells them, "Your account information is only used by the toll roads, and we do not give or sell your information to anyone."

But the Transportation Corridor Agencies, which runs the Orange County toll roads, has shared some motorists' information with law enforcement under subpoena or when there was a legitimate criminal investigation, said spokeswoman Lisa Telles.

Right up there with the privacy debate is a fairness debate.

From the state's perspective, there needs to be a fair way to have motorists pay for building and maintaining roads they use.

"Eventually, if someday we switch to no-fossil fuel, we'd have to replace the funding source," said Joel Riphagen, transportation analyst for the nonpartisan Legislative Analysts' Office. "We really need to start looking at it as we begin to switch fuel sources or increase gas mileage."

But some drivers who have invested in fuel-efficient vehicles say a miles-driven tax would discourage people from buying energy-efficient vehicles and punish people who already own them.

"You will have a revolt coming out of your ears," said George Margolin, an inventor who lives in Newport Beach. Margolin and his wife, Cathy, traded in her Nissan 300Z for a Prius in March.

To improve the state's roads, Margolin said the state needs a steady stream of money and needs to come up with creative ways to pay for roads - such as getting more businesses that benefit from roads to pay for them. "You would not be doing that by increasing the cost of gas (through a miles-driven tax). Philosophically, that's a no- win situation."

Luster, who has had his Toyota Prius about a month, understands the state's bind and said he would be willing to pay higher taxes. However, he believes some of the money is misdirected.

"It's not right to put that money into nothing other than road building. We need to put that money into something that would get people around more efficiently," Luster said.

But if all 31 million vehicle owners switched to hybrids, the state would still face the same congestion and road- maintenance problems, policy analysts said.

"Hybrids are great. They use less fuel but take up exactly the same space on the road as a Hummer," said Dan Beal, manager of public policy for the Costa Mesa-based Automobile Club of Southern California.

He says the state is headed in the right direction in thinking about alternatives to paying for roads, but taxes based on miles driven are not flawless.

Charging a person using the San Diego (405) Freeway during rush hour in Los Angeles the same amount as a person flying up Interstate 5 in the Central Valley is a problem because it doesn't reflect a driver's "load" on the system.

"It's similar to going to a movie Friday night versus Tuesday afternoon," he said.

"Ultimately, what we need is a system where your use is based on when you use it, where you use it and the distance you travel on it," Beal said. How much state gas tax you pay depends on the mileage of your make of car. Here’s an estimate for three cars, based on each traveling 15,000 miles per year. The tax, 18 cents per gallon, is levied at the pump.

Unbelievable...done in the name of taxation...where have I heard that before?...argh...

Hahahahahahahah,

Mileage tax proposed for state's drivers

Welcome to trucking ! We pay taxes in every state we travel. It is called a HUT ( Hiway Use Tax).
OR being one of the worse!
Now you little 4 wheelers will know what it is like!

FWIW: They probably got the idea from our (trucking) tax usage laws.

Do you know I have to pay either a HUT or buy X number of gallons of fuel for X number of miles I travel per state. EVEN if it is on Interstates. Doulbe taxation boys get used to it

Sounds like something they'd do in Eugene.  Bunch of liberal dumb ass hippies.

Not all of them, I'm sure there's a few good ARFCOM guys/girls, but for the most part, bunch of liberal dumb ass hippies.

Truck drivers have been paying road use tax for a long time, nothing new.

Quoted: Hahahahahahahah, Mileage tax proposed for state's drivers Welcome to trucking ! We pay taxes in every state we travel. It is called a HUT ( Hiway Use Tax). OR being one of the worse! Now you little 4 wheelers will know what it is like! FWIW: They probably got the idea from our (trucking) tax usage laws. Do you know I have to pay either a HUT or buy X number of gallons of fuel for X number of miles I travel per state. EVEN if it is on Interstates. Doulbe taxation boys get used to it

I fiind it sickening that you could find this funny just because you're already getting reamed.

You sound like one of those californians who gloats when another State passes a restrictive gun law.

Quoted: countrystore.blogspot.com/images/care-o-meter.jpg

Dude, clearly, that's the pi(e) meter. No wonder your state is fvcked-up.

They won't eliminate the gasoline tax... they will only add the milage tax.  Wait and see.

Remember the joke, "Why does a dog sit in the middle of the road and lick his balls?  Because he can."


Will govt use milage devices for surveilance?  They will if they can.  If not now, they will in future models.

Quoted: Quoted: countrystore.blogspot.com/images/care-o-meter.jpg Dude, clearly, that's the pie meter. No wonder your state is fvcked-up.

Quoted: Quoted: Hahahahahahahah, Mileage tax proposed for state's drivers Welcome to trucking ! We pay taxes in every state we travel. It is called a HUT ( Hiway Use Tax). OR being one of the worse! Now you little 4 wheelers will know what it is like! FWIW: They probably got the idea from our (trucking) tax usage laws. Do you know I have to pay either a HUT or buy X number of gallons of fuel for X number of miles I travel per state. EVEN if it is on Interstates. Doulbe taxation boys get used to it I fiind it sickening that you could find this funny just because you're already getting reamed. You sound like one of those californians who gloats when another State passes a restrictive gun law.

Nope not gloating, just letting you know what it is like!
Most people dont have a clue what shit we have to pay and how many times we get tapped twice.
Even on a toll road where I generally pay 4-6 times the toll you do, I STILL get hit with a HUT!!
Now I am taxed 3 times

Welcome to my world, and for the GPS thing, LOL, now you know what herassment is all about.
I hope it passes for 6 mos, then gets repealed.

So do you think they would repeal their state gas tax if they implimented this new system or would they just add it on top?  I bet they would just add it on top.

If they don't charge a gas tax but instead do some type of milage tax to all residents, Georgia does something similar from what I'm told, what happens when someone like me from Kentucky drives through your state?  I pay no gas tax and I pay no annual fee.  That means I contribute to the damage of the road and the state receives no funds from me to help pay for it.  That's pretty short sited on there part.  At least with the gas tax the people buy gas are the people driving and it doesn't matter who they are or where they are from.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hahahahahahahah, Mileage tax proposed for state's drivers Welcome to trucking ! We pay taxes in every state we travel. It is called a HUT ( Hiway Use Tax). OR being one of the worse! Now you little 4 wheelers will know what it is like! FWIW: They probably got the idea from our (trucking) tax usage laws. Do you know I have to pay either a HUT or buy X number of gallons of fuel for X number of miles I travel per state. EVEN if it is on Interstates. Doulbe taxation boys get used to it I fiind it sickening that you could find this funny just because you're already getting reamed. You sound like one of those californians who gloats when another State passes a restrictive gun law. Nope not gloating, just letting you know what it is like! Most people dont have a clue what shit we have to pay and how many times we get tapped twice. Even on a toll road where I generally pay 4-6 times the toll you do, I STILL get hit with a HUT!! Now I am taxed 3 times Welcome to my world, and for the GPS thing, LOL, now you know what herassment is all about. I hope it passes for 6 mos, then gets repealed.

Why are you hoping it passes at all?

Quoted: Link .......................But it's not at all far-fetched. Oregon will do a test run of such a "vehicle- miles traveled" system next year. The plan, which still requires legislative approval there, would put a $100 global- positioning-system device in every new car in Oregon. The device would beam drivers' in-state mileage to a satellite, which would then send the information to the service station where the driver is refueling so the proper tax can be levied at the pump.

Solution?


Or get a junker and weld in a large gas tank like the moonshine runners used to do. Drive it a couple of miles to the gas station and back home. Siphon gas into the Corvette.


Every breath you take
Every move you make
Every bond you break
Every step you take
I’ll be watching you

Every single day
Every word you say
Every game you play
Every night you stay
I’ll be watching you............................

I’ll be watching you
I’ll be watching you
I’ll be watching you
I’ll be watching you...

They start out by saying it won't be used for surveillance, and they won't know where you are, they just want to know if you're in the state.  But by the end of the article, it's "Ultimately, what we need is a system where your use is based on when you use it, where you use it and the distance you travel on it."  IOW, every step you take, we'll be watching.

Yeahhhhh!!!!  Government tracking systems installed in your car!!!!  Yeaaahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!

The sheep will rustle a bit and the system will be installed.  It will make it's way to everyone.  

Quoted: They start out by saying it won't be used for surveillance, and they won't know where you are, they just want to know if you're in the state.  But by the end of the article, it's "Ultimately, what we need is a system where your use is based on when you use it, where you use it and the distance you travel on it."  IOW, every step you take, we'll be watching.

"I am the eye in the sky, looking at you"  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hahahahahahahah, Mileage tax proposed for state's drivers Welcome to trucking ! We pay taxes in every state we travel. It is called a HUT ( Hiway Use Tax). OR being one of the worse! Now you little 4 wheelers will know what it is like! FWIW: They probably got the idea from our (trucking) tax usage laws. Do you know I have to pay either a HUT or buy X number of gallons of fuel for X number of miles I travel per state. EVEN if it is on Interstates. Doulbe taxation boys get used to it I fiind it sickening that you could find this funny just because you're already getting reamed. You sound like one of those californians who gloats when another State passes a restrictive gun law. Nope not gloating, just letting you know what it is like! Most people dont have a clue what shit we have to pay and how many times we get tapped twice. Even on a toll road where I generally pay 4-6 times the toll you do, I STILL get hit with a HUT!! Now I am taxed 3 times Welcome to my world, and for the GPS thing, LOL, now you know what herassment is all about. I hope it passes for 6 mos, then gets repealed. Why are you hoping it passes at all?

It's called "sour grapes"

Quoted: countrystore.blogspot.com/images/care-o-meter.jpg

+1

Besides, I drive less then 5 miles round trip to work including a stop at the market. In reality, it will never happen. The infostructure cost will be more then anyone will accept. Just not going to happen.

Imgine what it would take to outfit every gas station in Oregon with sat recievers that would aslo be able to talk to your GPS in your car. Who will eat the cost of hte new pump interface? Ma and pa gas station owner? doubt it.
CH

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hahahahahahahah, Mileage tax proposed for state's drivers Welcome to trucking ! We pay taxes in every state we travel. It is called a HUT ( Hiway Use Tax). OR being one of the worse! Now you little 4 wheelers will know what it is like! FWIW: They probably got the idea from our (trucking) tax usage laws. Do you know I have to pay either a HUT or buy X number of gallons of fuel for X number of miles I travel per state. EVEN if it is on Interstates. Doulbe taxation boys get used to it I fiind it sickening that you could find this funny just because you're already getting reamed. You sound like one of those californians who gloats when another State passes a restrictive gun law. Nope not gloating, just letting you know what it is like! Most people dont have a clue what shit we have to pay and how many times we get tapped twice. Even on a toll road where I generally pay 4-6 times the toll you do, I STILL get hit with a HUT!! Now I am taxed 3 times Welcome to my world, and for the GPS thing, LOL, now you know what herassment is all about. I hope it passes for 6 mos, then gets repealed.

A company tracking its trucks via GPS and the .gov tracking your private vehicle are two  entirely separate issues.

Quoted: countrystore.blogspot.com/images/care-o-meter.jpg

You don't care if the government puts GPS in your car? That's surprising.

The legislators responsible for this need to be voted out of office. It's the only way to prevent these things, really. It seems to me that an oppenent could have a field day criticizing the incumbent over this during speeches and rallies. I can't for the life of me imagine this having popular support.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hahahahahahahah, Mileage tax proposed for state's drivers Welcome to trucking ! We pay taxes in every state we travel. It is called a HUT ( Hiway Use Tax). OR being one of the worse! Now you little 4 wheelers will know what it is like! FWIW: They probably got the idea from our (trucking) tax usage laws. Do you know I have to pay either a HUT or buy X number of gallons of fuel for X number of miles I travel per state. EVEN if it is on Interstates. Doulbe taxation boys get used to it I fiind it sickening that you could find this funny just because you're already getting reamed. You sound like one of those californians who gloats when another State passes a restrictive gun law. Nope not gloating, just letting you know what it is like! Most people dont have a clue what shit we have to pay and how many times we get tapped twice. Even on a toll road where I generally pay 4-6 times the toll you do, I STILL get hit with a HUT!! Now I am taxed 3 times Welcome to my world, and for the GPS thing, LOL, now you know what herassment is all about. I hope it passes for 6 mos, then gets repealed. A company tracking its trucks via GPS It is MY truck , not a comapny truck and the .gov tracking your private vehicle are two  entirely separate issues. How do you figure???

It is a PRIVATELY own truck, by me and me alone!
Anyhow I am NOT advocating the tracking of ANY vehicle that is NOT an AIRPLANE.
but the road tax I hope gets passed, I am tired of paying double and triple taxes for Federally funded Interstates. You people will now carry your own share. I am sorry, but I am the welfare bearer for hi-way taxes, and Now you will know what it is like!
Am I bitter , Nooooooo, I am actually happy, I have been paying this crap for years and years.
YOUR TURN!

Quoted: Quoted: countrystore.blogspot.com/images/care-o-meter.jpg You don't care if the government puts GPS in your car? That's surprising.

I dont care because it will not become law. Not-a-gonna-happen

Quoted: It is a PRIVATELY own truck, by me and me alone! Anyhow I am NOT advocating the tracking of ANY vehicle that is NOT an AIRPLANE. but the road tax I hope gets passed, I am tired of paying double and triple taxes for Federally funded Interstates. You people will now carry your own share. I am sorry, but I am the welfare bearer for hi-way taxes, and Now you will know what it is like! Am I bitter , Nooooooo, I am actually happy, I have been paying this crap for years and years. YOUR TURN!

You think your double/triple taxes are going to disappear just because they start taxing the rest of us?

Quoted: Quoted: It is a PRIVATELY own truck, by me and me alone! Anyhow I am NOT advocating the tracking of ANY vehicle that is NOT an AIRPLANE. but the road tax I hope gets passed, I am tired of paying double and triple taxes for Federally funded Interstates. You people will now carry your own share. I am sorry, but I am the welfare bearer for hi-way taxes, and Now you will know what it is like! Am I bitter , Nooooooo, I am actually happy, I have been paying this crap for years and years. YOUR TURN! You think your double/triple taxes are going to disappear just because they start taxing the rest of us?

You insult my intelligence!

Nope, but it is gonna be funny watching Oregonians carry their own weight  ( HUT).
Next will be roadside car inspections and driver fatigue issue of 4-wheelers

I got news, IT'S BULLSHIT.

I've heard that for roads to actually wear from vehicles, the vehicle has to be a certain weight. That's right, the roads that 80,000 lbs semi's travel on, are not appreciably worn by a 4,000 pound car.

So saying that passenger car hybrids will cause wear and tear, that won't be covered by current gas taxes, is based on the erroneous idea that cars cause any real damage to start with.

Plus you would think that nobody would complain about hybrids or other super high mileage cars that reduce our dependence on foriegn fuels anyway.  

Didn't this start in Calf. Some one wanted to do this out there and it is being looked at.

You think that's bad. In Manhattan they are going to put more cameras up. Like they have in London and not only look for terrorists but run your plates. See if your Emission sticker or plates are expired. Also check to see if your insurance is up to date.

Now I guess it is OK since it will stop people from doing illegal things, but it just seems with Easy-Pass and other things that Big Brother is watching. Looks like another non fiction book becomes reality.

Quoted: I got news, IT'S BULLSHIT. I've heard that for roads to actually wear from vehicles, the vehicle has to be a certain weight. That's right, the roads that 80,000 lbs semi's travel on, are not appreciably worn by a 4,000 pound car.

That is why I have the oil delivery truck park at the bottom of my driveway.

..the GPS would detect only whether the car is inside or outside of Oregon and how many miles it has traveled in state - not its every movement.

Quoted: The legislators responsible for this need to be voted out of office. It's the only way to prevent these things, really. It seems to me that an oppenent could have a field day criticizing the incumbent over this during speeches and rallies. I can't for the life of me imagine this having popular support.

I don't believe this is the work of legislators, it has to be part of our initative process.  Oregon is not in session right now.  We are one of the few states that do not meet every year.

I'm with Cape_Hunter on this.  Its a very impractical was of collecting taxes.  They would be smarter to come up with a toll tax on the highways/freeways but I hope they dont!

Personally I think a fuel tax is the best way to pay for out road infrastructure. You use it, you pay for it. What are the options - toll roads are inefficient,  pay by the mile will not work (easy to defeat the tracking, civil rights issues, cost to implement etc.) and vehicle registration taxes do not charge for the actual use. Taxing fuel is fair, it reflects both the amount you drive and what you drive. By the time electric powered cars (the type you plug in not hybrids that burn fuel) become a significant percentage of vehicles my great grand kids can decide what to do about the roads.

Rich V

Quoted: I got news, IT'S BULLSHIT. I've heard that for roads to actually wear from vehicles, the vehicle has to be a certain weight. That's right, the roads that 80,000 lbs semi's travel on, are not appreciably worn by a 4,000 pound car. So saying that passenger car hybrids will cause wear and tear, that won't be covered by current gas taxes, is based on the erroneous idea that cars cause any real damage to start with. Plus you would think that nobody would complain about hybrids or other super high mileage cars that reduce our dependence on foriegn fuels anyway.

You are somewhat correct here, BUT did you know that Interstates were to be designed to handle loads up to and over 100,000 lbs? The Eisenhower Interstate System was primarily designed for MILITARY use. based on the Autobahn.

With that roughly laid out , road damage is a cross between bad engineering, traffic, and the biggest factor - WEATHER.

Mix all 3 and what do you get? Shitty roads.
States are always up to scamming money out of all types of business'.

Some of the worst roads in the US are in the North East, AND it is where some of the HIGHEST Tolls are
GW Bridge cost me 30 bux for less than 1.5 miles and it is one rough SOB
I think a car is 5 bux?
So yeah I am all for increased 4 wheeler HUT.
They can take that GPS tracking shit and shove it with the trunk of a redwood for all I care.

Quoted: Solution? Or get a junker and weld in a large gas tank like the moonshine runners used to do. Drive it a couple of miles to the gas station and back home. Siphon gas into the Corvette.

Better yet, build one of  these GPS Jammers powered by a cigarette lighter plug and use it whenever you're driving more than a few miles.  That way your total milage (and your tax bill) is laughably low.

Quoted: You are somewhat correct here, BUT did you know that Interstates were to be designed to handle loads up to and over 100,000 lbs? The Eisenhower Interstate System was primarily designed for MILITARY use. based on the Autobahn. With that roughly laid out , road damage is a cross between bad engineering, traffic, and the biggest factor - WEATHER. Mix all 3 and what do you get? Shitty roads. States are always up to scamming money out of all types of business'. Some of the worst roads in the US are in the North East, AND it is where some of the HIGHEST Tolls are GW Bridge cost me 30 bux for less than 1.5 miles and it is one rough SOB I think a car is 5 bux? So yeah I am all for increased 4 wheeler HUT. They can take that GPS tracking shit and shove it with the trunk of a redwood for all I care.

First, Weather damages roads regardless of traffic.
Bad engineering, drainage, materials, etc. sure that could factor in.

I suspect weather is a signifigant factor.

But even with your arguement, I-Autobahn. The Autobahn's "roadbed" is 6 ft deep vs 3 ft for US roads. It is constructed to a much higher standard.

Next, let's say the I was designed with 100,000 loads as a parameter. Are you telling me thousands of trucks per month, week, or day, weighing 80% of that parameter aren't going to wear that road? Hardly.

And it even makes the arguement that a 4,000 pound car, that is .25 of the load factor designed into the road, DOESN'T damage to the road, seem stronger.

Even assumming the 100,000 pound military load, how many wheels, or how much PSI would a military vehicle put down? Looking at military vehicles, like tank carriers, they often have more than 18 wheels on the ground. So they may be carrying a higher weight, but the weight carried per wheel may actually be lower than some commercial vehicles.

 

I wonder how long it will take before they realize that I AM FRYING THE GPS IN MY NEW CAR with my lil portable EMP Machine? After 15 Warranty repairs? 20? 100?

Do all cars have GPS systems in them?  My newest car is a 1995 Olds.  

They are testing this system in England for "gas taxes" also, so it will be coming here as the government knows they can make more money from it.  It will also be used to give speeding tickets, and keep a record of where your vehicle is and was at all times.

The records will be kept, as it has already been ruled on by the Supreme Court that "big brother" can place these devices on your vehicle without a warrant, PC, or anything.  It's considered the same as if a police officer watched you speed or be at the scene of a crime.

Quoted: I wonder how long it will take before they realize that I AM FRYING THE GPS IN MY NEW CAR with my lil portable EMP Machine? After 15 Warranty repairs? 20? 100?

Take dash odometer readings at renewal.  Match dash odo to GPS odo.  If they are off and the GPS was not reporting to them for more than 15 days, $1000 fine + tax on odo reading.