Link to article

snippet:

From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry.

Can't we all just get along?  

i am a PROUD athiest.  this just goes to show that people who have to rely on religion have quite a bit of contempt for those who do not.


NO i do not believe in god.

that means i don't believe in "the devil" either, thus i do not worship him as I am so often accused.



oh, and last i checked, athiests are not blowing up things and beheading people....

Quoted: i am a PROUD athiest.  this just goes to show that people who have to rely on religion have quite a bit of contempt for those who do not. NO i do not believe in god. that means i don't believe in "the devil" either, thus i do not worship him as I am so often accused. oh, and last i checked, athiests are not blowing up things and beheading people....

Communists/athiests have slaughtered about 100,000,000 people in the 20th century. Great atheists luminaries like Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and others haved killed more people "for the good of the cause" than anyone else.
No offense to you, I don't equate you or most atheists with these thugs but athiets can't claim moral superiority.

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/qid=1143334670/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5668919-5656118?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

I find it easiest to just hate everyone equally.

Quoted: Quoted: i am a PROUD athiest.  this just goes to show that people who have to rely on religion have quite a bit of contempt for those who do not. NO i do not believe in god. that means i don't believe in "the devil" either, thus i do not worship him as I am so often accused. oh, and last i checked, athiests are not blowing up things and beheading people.... Communists/athiests have slaughtered about 100,000,000 people in the 20th century. Great atheists luminaries like Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and others haved killed more people "for the good of the cause" than anyone else. No offense to you, I don't equate you or most atheists with these thugs but athiets can't claim moral superiority. www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/qid=1143334670/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5668919-5656118?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

That's just retarded, you can't group people together simply because they don't believe in something.

Hey Joaquin, you don't believe in the Easter Bunny?  Well 99.9998% of child molesters, serial killers, and terrorists don't believe in the Easter Bunny either, so you are in their group, huh?  From now on we will group you in with them since you all share the same (non)beliefs.

That's more of a communist/leftist thing than an atheist thing...idiot.

Quoted: Quoted: i am a PROUD athiest.  this just goes to show that people who have to rely on religion have quite a bit of contempt for those who do not. NO i do not believe in god. that means i don't believe in "the devil" either, thus i do not worship him as I am so often accused. oh, and last i checked, athiests are not blowing up things and beheading people.... Communists/athiests have slaughtered about 100,000,000 people in the 20th century. Great atheists luminaries like Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and others haved killed more people "for the good of the cause" than anyone else. No offense to you, I don't equate you or most atheists with these thugs but athiets can't claim moral superiority. www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/qid=1143334670/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5668919-5656118?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

come on, man, these people weren't committing genocide in the name of atheism.  they were doing it in the name of power and other factors.  You're really confused, here.

Atheism itself has become a religion.

Quoted: I find it easiest to just hate everyone equally.

Easiest way to make it work.

Among people I know and hang out with, I avoid the subjects such as religion unless I am in it to start a debate.

Quoted: Communists/athiests have slaughtered about 100,000,000 people in the 20th century. Great atheists luminaries like Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and others haved killed more people "for the good of the cause" than anyone else. No offense to you, I don't equate you or most atheists with these thugs but athiets can't claim moral superiority. www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/qid=1143334670/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5668919-5656118?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Athiesm was not the main banner those characters ascribed to.  If you want to play that game, Hitler slaughtered millions who were not his version of christianity.  And we can keep going back in time looking at christian massacres, and muslim massacres, and jewish massacres, ect.

I am a very proud american, serving my country, and my religious preference happens to be athiesm.  for this reason i'm one of the most mistrusted groups in the country?  

in my experience athiesm is probably the most mis-understood ideas in society.  I think people have a better handle on hinduism than they do athiesm.  this ignorance leads to part of the problem.


and in other news, i'd be willign to bet there are far more than 3% athiests in this population, and that we are a growing group.  nothing breeds athiesm more than watching the BS that goes on in the name "enlightened religious people"

Quoted: Link to article snippet: From a telephone sampling of more than 2,000 households, university researchers found that Americans rate atheists below Muslims, recent immigrants, gays and lesbians and other minority groups in “sharing their vision of American society.” Atheists are also the minority group most Americans are least willing to allow their children to marry. Can't we all just get along?

Damn people will always find something to make themselves feel superior...

Quoted: Atheism itself has become a religion.

Please explain why you think that.  Atheism is the opposite of religion.

I wonder how many people who call themselves atheists are actually agnostic but just don't know it.

I don't believe in a god per se. But am not arrogant enough to claim that there are NO powers out there that are higher than us. In fact, I'd say that there are, but I'm not attatching a "religion" to it. Or for that matter, any rhyme or reason.

It seems that most people who are not "religious" just don't believe in god/gods. Where real, true atheists have an AGENDA from what I've seen. Which is to actively crusade AGAINST religion. Something I just can't get a grasp on.......

Quoted: Quoted: Atheism itself has become a religion. Please explain why you think that.  Atheism is the opposite of religion.

They way that some athiests, not all, feel the need to remove all signs and symbols of other peoples faith gives me the impression that they are on some sort of mission/Jhad.  Hence, it has become their religion or faith.  Their lifes work.  It has become their faith.  

[/qoute]Communists/athiests have slaughtered about 100,000,000 people in the 20th century. Great atheists luminaries like Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and others haved killed more people "for the good of the cause" than anyone else.
No offense to you, I don't equate you or most atheists with these thugs but athiets can't claim moral superiority.

And how many people have been killed at the hands of religous zealots.

Quoted: I wonder how many people who call themselves atheists are actually agnostic but just don't know it. I don't believe in a god per se. But am not arrogant enough to claim that there are NO powers out there that are higher than us. In fact, I'd say that there are, but I'm not attatching a "religion" to it. Or for that matter, any rhyme or reason. It seems that most people who are not "religious" just don't believe in god/gods. Where real, true atheists have an AGENDA from what I've seen. Which is to actively crusade AGAINST religion. Something I just can't get a grasp on.......

you're clearly ignorant on the subject.  athiests have no more of an agenda than christians do.  if i had a dollar for every time a christian told me he was going to "pray for me" when i told him i don't believe in god, i wouldnt need to work for uncle sam.

in my experience, all religions crusade against eachother.  some are more violent than others, but they are all out to get eachother and convert others to their beliefs.

I'm a nihilist. I believe in nothing, jnewson. Nothing. And tomorrow I come back and I cut off your chonson.

Quoted: I'm a nihilist. I believe in nothing, jnewson. Nothing. And tomorrow I come back and I cut off your chonson.

that's fine, just don't pee on my rug

Quoted: They way that some athiests, not all, feel the need to remove all signs and symbols of other peoples faith gives me the impression that they are on some sort of mission/Jhad.  Hence, it has become their religion or faith.  Their lifes work.  It has become their faith.

no more so than people want to shove their religious symbols down everyone's throat.....

Quoted: Quoted: They way that some athiests, not all, feel the need to remove all signs and symbols of other peoples faith gives me the impression that they are on some sort of mission/Jhad.  Hence, it has become their religion or faith.  Their lifes work.  It has become their faith.   no more so than people want to shove their religious symbols down everyone's throat.....

Then they are the same.  A faith.

Atheism is not believing in god, not the same as not having a religion.

I invented my own religion, in which there is no god. Ironic, yes, but I have an atheist religion.

Quoted: Then they are the same.  A faith.

i still argue that its a LACK of faith.  we don't have FAITH in any god, sacred tree, whatever.  

Quoted: Quoted: I'm a nihilist. I believe in nothing, jnewson. Nothing. And tomorrow I come back and I cut off your chonson. that's fine, just don't pee on my rug

I'll cut off your johnson!
Just you think about that, Tanerite!
Yeah, your wiggly penis, Tanerite!  
Yeah and maybe I stomp on it and squoosh it, Tanerite!

Quoted: Quoted: Then they are the same.  A faith. i still argue that its a LACK of faith.  we don't have FAITH in any god, sacred tree, whatever.

How about faith in your lack of faith?

This is a circular discussion.  

"If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice."

Rush.

Quoted: How about faith in your lack of faith? This is a circular discussion.

yes it is, and doesnt matter either way.

waht i believe in is my ability to dictate what happens in my life.  i believe that my life is not laid out in front of me, and i have ultimate control of what happens.  i dont believe that someone has a "grand plan" for me (well maybe AFPC does, but not god)  and as for the question of "what happens when you die?"  i know about as much as anyone else really does, i just am man enough to admit i don't know and will figure out quickly one day, so i might as well enjoy every day of my life while i have it, and not worry about what is happening to me after i die.

I've seen more than one atheist, when placed in a situation where they thought their life was about to end, get religion with a fervor that surpassed any religious zealot that I've ever seen.

Not believing in something is easy when you live a safe, comfortable life.  But when you're about to die, or think you're about to die, you'd like to think your life actually meant something more than hookers and blow, and that there might be something better awaiting your sorry ass than oblivion.

But, last time I checked, this was still a free country, believe or not in anything you want to believe in or want to disbelieive in.  Just because you're thought of as lower than Islamo Facists shouldn't bother you...should it?

Quoted: Athiesm was not the main banner those characters ascribed to. If you want to play that game, Hitler slaughtered millions who were not his version of christianity. Boy, you would lose that game bofore it starts, Hitler wasn't a Christian, he was a Pagan. Please explain why you think that. Atheism is the opposite of religion. Actually, Agnosticism and more specifically Nontheism would be the opposite.  Atheism is a religion because it requires faith.  The faith of certainty there is no God while lacking absolute proof. Nontheists believe that it does not matter whether there is a God or not, irrespective of whether he exists.

That's ridiculous.  That's like saying that people who don't believe in aliens are a religion because they have faith that aliens exist, but don't have any proof.  I dunno about the Hitler thing, I thought he was a Christian too.  

Im NOT an atheist, dont care? I dont care if you are an atheist. Dis thread is wack.

Quoted: I've seen more than one atheist, when placed in a situation where they thought their life was about to end, get religion with a fervor that surpassed any religious zealot that I've ever seen.  Good for them.  I feel very comfortable in my faith (or lack thereof).  I bet if I rounded up 1000 christians and told them to pray to allah or i would kill them, i could get a few converts too Not believing in something is easy when you live a safe, comfortable life.  But when you're about to die, or think you're about to die, you'd like to think your life actually meant something more than hookers and blow, and that there might be something better awaiting your sorry ass than oblivion. Thank you for displaying your true bigoted ignorance.  It's people with attitudes like yours that make me so happy and comfortable being an athiest, and who fuel my contempt for religion in general. But, last time I checked, this was still a free country, believe or not in anything you want to believe in or want to disbelieive in.  Just because you're thought of as lower than Islamo Facists shouldn't bother you...should it? not one bit.

Quoted: Quoted: Communists/athiests have slaughtered about 100,000,000 people in the 20th century. Great atheists luminaries like Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and others haved killed more people "for the good of the cause" than anyone else. No offense to you, I don't equate you or most atheists with these thugs but athiets can't claim moral superiority. www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/qid=1143334670/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5668919-5656118?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 Athiesm was not the main banner those characters ascribed to.  If you want to play that game, Hitler slaughtered millions who were not his version of christianity.  And we can keep going back in time looking at christian massacres, and muslim massacres, and jewish massacres, ect. I am a very proud american, serving my country, and my religious preference happens to be athiesm.  for this reason i'm one of the most mistrusted groups in the country?   in my experience athiesm is probably the most mis-understood ideas in society.  I think people have a better handle on hinduism than they do athiesm.  this ignorance leads to part of the problem. and in other news, i'd be willign to bet there are far more than 3% athiests in this population, and that we are a growing group.  nothing breeds athiesm more than watching the BS that goes on in the name "enlightened religious people"

No offense bro, but aren;t you AF ROTC?

Quoted: No offense bro, but aren;t you AF ROTC?

allow me to educate you:

on the books i've been enlisted in the AF reserve for the past 3.5 years.  My service as an enlisted person has been defered for me to attend AFROTC.  If I were to leave AFROTC, I would incur a service commitment as an enlisted person from the day i leave ROTC.

in a little over a month I will be commissioned as an officer.  I will go from enlisted reserve status to active duty officer status, at which point I will begin my career as an AF officer.

Quoted: Quoted: No offense bro, but aren;t you AF ROTC? allow me to educate you: on the books i've been enlisted in the AF reserve for the past 3.5 years.  My service as an enlisted person has been defered for me to attend AFROTC.  If I were to leave AFROTC, I would incur a service commitment as an enlisted person from the day i leave ROTC. in a little over a month I will be commissioned as an officer.  I will go from enlisted reserve status to active duty officer status, at which point I will begin my career as an AF officer.

Sorry; I was unawre that you were also serving as an enlisted airman.  I thought AF ROTC was your only gig.  Again, I apologize for the confusion.

Quoted: Sorry; I was unawre that you were also serving as an enlisted airman.  I thought AF ROTC was your only gig.  Again, I apologize for the confusion.

no prob.  most people who have never done it have no idea how the system works.  hell, a good number of people who are in seem to not understand how it works.

"I quit!"
"Ok, have fun on active duty airman."
"What do you mean? I told you I quit"
"Sure, you won't be an officer, but this contract here says...."
"Rut Roh"
"Have fun on active duty airman."

Poor baby , do you need a crying towel.

Quoted: Quoted: No offense bro, but aren;t you AF ROTC? allow me to educate you: on the books i've been enlisted in the AF reserve for the past 3.5 years.  My service as an enlisted person has been defered for me to attend AFROTC.  If I were to leave AFROTC, I would incur a service commitment as an enlisted person from the day i leave ROTC. in a little over a month I will be commissioned as an officer.  I will go from enlisted reserve status to active duty officer status, at which point I will begin my career as an AF officer.

Inactive Ready Reserve, there is a BIG difference. You have no TIS, you are not an enlisted airman, you have no rank other than what ROTC informally calls you (which can change daily), you are not bound by the UCMJ. And if you "quit" you do not have to join active enlistment.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No offense bro, but aren;t you AF ROTC? allow me to educate you: on the books i've been enlisted in the AF reserve for the past 3.5 years.  My service as an enlisted person has been defered for me to attend AFROTC.  If I were to leave AFROTC, I would incur a service commitment as an enlisted person from the day i leave ROTC. in a little over a month I will be commissioned as an officer.  I will go from enlisted reserve status to active duty officer status, at which point I will begin my career as an AF officer. Inactive Ready Reserve, there is a BIG difference. You have no TIS, you are not an enlisted airman, you have no rank other than what ROTC informally calls you (which can change daily), you are not bound by the UCMJ. And if you "quit" you do not have to join active enlistment.

I thought he was saying that he initally enlisted into the USAF and then decided to shoot for ROTC instead?  That is how I read it.  Am I wrong?

Quoted: Quoted: And if you "quit" you do not have to join active enlistment.

I personally know two enlisted airmen who really wish that were true.  If you're on contract and quit, the AF has two options: A) recoup all scholarship money spent on you or B) involuntarily call you to active duty as an airman.  

the two contracted people i know who threw in the towel got hit with option B


anyway.... can we un-hijack this thread and get back to the discussion.  If we want to bicker about the semantics of ROTC status we can do it here


ATHIESM: WTF?

A "telephone survey", eh?  By a "sociology" professor, eh?  

Two big red flags right there.  Sociologists aren't known for their unbiased opinions and telephone surveys are problematic in and of themselves.  If professor what's her name here is going to try to convince me that Americans would rather have their children marrying Taliban members and extrmeme moslems because they "aren't atheists" I'm going to raise the bullshit flag.

I couldn't find any info on how the sample of respondents was chosen nor what questions were on the survey.

*I'd like to know a little more about who they spoke with in this telephone survey.  What geographic locations?  Did they call only heavily religious communities?  Who did they call to come up with what I consider to be an odd result, the Amish or something?

*When did they call?  11:00 in the morning when most people are at work and a higher number of uneducated people on welfare (and who know little about the world or the issue at hand) are at home watching Oprah?

*More people are dropping their landlines and using cell phones like me.  How did they call them?

*More people have unlisted phone numbers (like many people I know).  Did they use random digit dialing?  How exactly was the sample obtained?

*How were the survey questions phrased?  This is critical to getting an unbiasesed result.  Even the best intentioned of researchers can screw up by asking leading questions, vague questions, etc.

*Many of the people you want to respond to your survey won't do it on the phone and, due to telemarketers, a higher number of people that DO respond are giving bullshit "joke" answers just to fuck with the researcher.  Other types of surveys are a little less likely to suffer from this problem, particularly ones where the respondents voluntarily fill out the survey.

What the hell is a "recent immigrant"?  That's a little vague, isn't it?  Is Dr. what's her name trying to tell me that John Q. Citizen would rather have his cheerleader daughter marrying an unemployed, illiterate, Somalian moslem than an atheist with a PhD in electrical engineering?

Something in this "survey" reeks and I think an in person survey needs to be done to check these results.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No offense bro, but aren;t you AF ROTC? allow me to educate you: on the books i've been enlisted in the AF reserve for the past 3.5 years.  My service as an enlisted person has been defered for me to attend AFROTC.  If I were to leave AFROTC, I would incur a service commitment as an enlisted person from the day i leave ROTC. in a little over a month I will be commissioned as an officer.  I will go from enlisted reserve status to active duty officer status, at which point I will begin my career as an AF officer. Inactive Ready Reserve, there is a BIG difference. You have no TIS, you are not an enlisted airman, you have no rank other than what ROTC informally calls you (which can change daily), you are not bound by the UCMJ. And if you "quit" you do not have to join active enlistment. I thought he was saying that he initally enlisted into the USAF and then decided to shoot for ROTC instead?  That is how I read it.  Am I wrong?

You are wrong, he was not prior enlisted. And I just had my friend quit and he got option A. It is not an automatic "you go to Lackland" if you decide to drop out of the program.

Quoted: A "telephone survey", eh?  By a "sociology" professor, eh?   Two big red flags right there.  Sociologists aren't known for their unbiased opinions and telephone surveys are problematic in and of themselves.  If professor what's her name here is going to try to convince me that Americans would rather have their children marrying Taliban members and extrmeme moslems because they "aren't atheists" I'm going to raise the bullshit flag. I couldn't find any info on how the sample of respondents was chosen nor what questions were on the survey. *I'd like to know a little more about who they spoke with in this telephone survey.  What geographic locations?  Did they call only heavily religious communities?  Who did they call to come up with what I consider to be an odd result, the Amish or something? *When did they call?  11:00 in the morning when most people are at work and a higher number of uneducated people on welfare (and who know little about the world or the issue at hand) are at home watching Oprah? *More people are dropping their landlines and using cell phones like me.  How did they call them? *More people have unlisted phone numbers (like many people I know).  Did they use random digit dialing?  How exactly was the sample obtained? *How were the survey questions phrased?  This is critical to getting an unbiasesed result.  Even the best intentioned of researchers can screw up by asking leading questions, vague questions, etc. *Many of the people you want to respond to your survey won't do it on the phone and, due to telemarketers, a higher number of people that DO respond are giving bullshit "joke" answers just to fuck with the researcher.  Other types of surveys are a little less likely to suffer from this problem, particularly ones where the respondents voluntarily fill out the survey. What the hell is a "recent immigrant"?  That's a little vague, isn't it?  Is Dr. what's her name trying to tell me that John Q. Citizen would rather have his cheerleader daughter marrying an unemployed, illiterate, Somalian moslem than an atheist with a PhD in electrical engineering? Something in this "survey" reeks and I think an in person survey needs to be done to check these results.

That's an intelligent idea right there!  Phone surveys are often conducted by people too lazy to conduct a FTF survey in the first place.

Timing is critical on these surveys. Like E_H said, if it was taken at 11am you get a seriously skewed result.  (think of the polls befre the election)

GOOMZEBAH!


The sound of a Saracen with a bug turban, those big baggy pants, one of those tiny vests, wearing a pair of thost little pointed curly shoes with a little bell on the end AS HE TAKES HIS SCIMITAR AND LOPS YOUR HEAD OFF!!!!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: i am a PROUD athiest.  this just goes to show that people who have to rely on religion have quite a bit of contempt for those who do not. NO i do not believe in god. that means i don't believe in "the devil" either, thus i do not worship him as I am so often accused. oh, and last i checked, athiests are not blowing up things and beheading people.... Communists/athiests have slaughtered about 100,000,000 people in the 20th century. Great atheists luminaries like Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot and others haved killed more people "for the good of the cause" than anyone else. No offense to you, I don't equate you or most atheists with these thugs but athiets can't claim moral superiority. www.amazon.com/gp/product/0674076087/qid=1143334670/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5668919-5656118?s=books&v=glance&n=283155 That's just retarded, you can't group people together simply because they don't believe in something. Hey Joaquin, you don't believe in the Easter Bunny?  Well 99.9998% of child molesters, serial killers, and terrorists don't believe in the Easter Bunny either, so you are in their group, huh?  From now on we will group you in with them since you all share the same (non)beliefs.

ARHighPower,
I don't think anyone has ever refered to belief in the Easter bunny as "opium for the masses". The point I was trying to make was that people don't need a religion to commit atrocities. And to single out religion as the main cause of war and misery is wrong.

I'm sorry that you felt it necessary to refer to my earlier posting as retarded. No doubt my debating skills leave much to be desired but I would hope that any discussion would atleast be civil. I respect yours and everyone's beliefs wether they believe in God or not.

Quoted: GOOMZEBAH! The sound of a Saracen with a bug turban, those big baggy pants, one of those tiny vests, wearing a pair of thost little pointed curly shoes with a little bell on the end AS HE TAKES HIS SCIMITAR AND LOPS YOUR HEAD OFF!!!!

what?

I find this study hard to believe. I've never had a problem with anyone knowing I'm an atheist, except my Southern Baptist grand-parents but then agian they didn't even like it when my mother changed our religion to Presbyterian when I was a child.

Quoted: GOOMZEBAH! The sound of a Saracen with a bug turban, those big baggy pants, one of those tiny vests, wearing a pair of thost little pointed curly shoes with a little bell on the end AS HE TAKES HIS SCIMITAR AND LOPS YOUR HEAD OFF!!!!

You described a eunuch not a Saracen warrior.

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder how many people who call themselves atheists are actually agnostic but just don't know it. I don't believe in a god per se. But am not arrogant enough to claim that there are NO powers out there that are higher than us. In fact, I'd say that there are, but I'm not attatching a "religion" to it. Or for that matter, any rhyme or reason. It seems that most people who are not "religious" just don't believe in god/gods. Where real, true atheists have an AGENDA from what I've seen. Which is to actively crusade AGAINST religion. Something I just can't get a grasp on....... you're clearly ignorant on the subject.  athiests have no more of an agenda than christians do.  if i had a dollar for every time a christian told me he was going to "pray for me" when i told him i don't believe in god, i wouldnt need to work for uncle sam. in my experience, all religions crusade against eachother.  some are more violent than others, but they are all out to get eachother and convert others to their beliefs.

So you are saying that atheism is a religion then?

And to claim I am ignorant on the subject is a bit premature wouldn't you say? I mean, how much do you really know about what I know on the subject?

Being interested in religious and spiritual issues for many years now (including most major religions, some minor, and including atheism and agnosticism (sp?)...), it seems to me that atheism does not seem just to be a lack of faith. Many of it's adherents push a very hardline agenda. Almost offended by the fact that someone might believe in a god.

Whereas many of my friends and family are of various religious persuasions, I've never felt they were offended by the fact that I have none.

So are you offended by those who have a belief? And do you have an agenda/dogma to convert people to your side?

Atheists?  How can you trust anyone who has cafeteria morals?  I mean, what does an atheist base his "moral" compass on?  If there is no God, then there is no accountability.  Without accountability, there is no real responsibility.  And without personal responsibility, there can be no trust.