Hello everyone, I'm feeling lazy today and I wanted to ask everyone on arfcom anyways. Now, I don't have a 1911 as of yet, but I'll get one eventually. What are the advantages and disadvantages of internal and external extractors on a 1911?

this is discussed under the handgun forums.  

my kimber cdp II  with external has worked good for me so far.  

Unfortunately, I looked in the handgun forum and couldn't find anything. Could I have been looking in the wrong place? Could you provide me with a link?

Let me be the first to say it:

If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way.

an external extractor on a 1911 is like a piston on an AR15

just an answer to a non existant problem.

External extractors are for builders who want the easy way out.

Enternal extractor can be changed or adjusted easily, with no tools. External, a different story.

Quoted: Unfortunately, I looked in the handgun forum and couldn't find anything. Could I have been looking in the wrong place? Could you provide me with a link?

Search for "extractor" in the handgun section

Quoted: External extractors are for builders who want the easy way out.

+1.  All of the 1911's extraction and ejection problems come from either an improperly tuned extractor, or an extractor made from something other than JMB's specified spring steel. A tuned spring-steel extractor will work until the cows come home. I doubt the same can be said for an external one.

Kharn

Quoted: Quoted: External extractors are for builders who want the easy way out. +1.  All of the 1911's extraction and ejection problems come from either an improperly tuned extractor, or an extractor made from something other than JMB's specified spring steel. A tuned spring-steel extractor will work until the cows come home. I doubt the same can be said for an external one. Kharn

+2

cheaper too

Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way.

That's why he's a professor.  Knows how to explain the complex in an easy to understand form for us students.

Internal extractor.

2 external, 3 internal

2 series I, 3 series II


All work great, no issues.  (all Kimbers, btw)

Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way.

<stirring the pot a bit>
if the internal is so great, why did JMB(may peace be upon him) go with an external on the P35/Hi Power?

Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. <stirring the pot a bit> if the internal is so great, why did JMB(may peace be upon him) go with an external on the P35/Hi Power?

It came out after he was already seated at the right hand of the Father  

Doesn't matter, it'll jam either way.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. <stirring the pot a bit> if the internal is so great, why did JMB(may peace be upon him) go with an external on the P35/Hi Power? It came out after he was already seated at the right hand of the Father

this is true but I was under the impression that the only modification done to the design was the addition of that godawful magazine safety.

tagorama

I have a Question
If JMB had ment for the 1911 to have a external would he have not put one there?
From the man who gave us the ma duce, the 1911, the bar and many others.
I have not designed a better style, Have you? then lets see it.

Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way.

+1000,000 Amen brother

Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. +1000,000 Amen brother

Horns belong in the middle of the steering wheel and 1911 extractors on the inside. Thats the way GOD and JMB meant it to be.

Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way.

Damn Straight!

If the 1911 was MEANT to have usable sights, the great JMB would have designed it that way.

Neither one is a guarantee of anything.

Like every single part on every 1911, it's the quality of the build/part, and the execution of the design.

That's why so many externals work. If you do it right, it's right.

I'd rather have all internals, but I have no problem with a working gun either.

Good point ARdunstan, usable sights AND extended thumb safeties!!!

Maybe we need a shootoff between me with my Kimber Tactical Custom II and John Browning with his original 1911. Hmmmm....

Quoted: Good point ARdunstan, usable sights AND extended thumb safeties!!! Maybe we need a shootoff between me with my Kimber Tactical Custom II and John Browning with his original 1911. Hmmmm....

Or a shoot off between a series I kimber and yours?

No, what were after is seeing if the great JMB design cannot be improved upon. I think it can and has been with lowered ejection ports, usable sights, high rise beavertails (both function and comfort), extended thumb safeties and wilson combat mags.

Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. <stirring the pot a bit> if the internal is so great, why did JMB(may peace be upon him) go with an external on the P35/Hi Power?

Because he sold the 1911 rights to Colt, he had to design an entirely new gun from the ground up to avoid using the intellectual property that now belonged to Colt.

Kharn

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. <stirring the pot a bit> if the internal is so great, why did JMB(may peace be upon him) go with an external on the P35/Hi Power? Because he sold the 1911 rights to Colt, he had to design an entirely new gun from the ground up to avoid using the intellectual property that now belonged to Colt. Kharn

I've heard this before, and I'm not entirely sure I buy it. That said, 1911's seem to work just fine with an internal extractor.

Here's a story on Kimber External extractors.  The first wave were milled pretty thin back by the firing pin stop and would crack there.  Kimber changed the design of the slide which seemed to fix the problem.

After that, I know of two guns that had ftf problems linked to the external extractor.  One gun was sent to Kimber twice and on the second trip was sent back with a new slide and INTERNAL extractor.  This was without a request by the sender.  No joke.

Here's what I'd like to know:

What is the claimed benefit of an external extractor? In other words, why did anybody bother to change the original design? It seems to me like the original design is just fine (aside from the crude method of adjustment).

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. <stirring the pot a bit> if the internal is so great, why did JMB(may peace be upon him) go with an external on the P35/Hi Power? Because he sold the 1911 rights to Colt, he had to design an entirely new gun from the ground up to avoid using the intellectual property that now belonged to Colt. Kharn

Not so. It is why the trigger on the P35 sucks, but the original P35s had internal extractors as well.

cheaper too

No they're not. They require a human being to sit there and tune the spring steel extractor. If he f's up or if the steel isn't right, the extractor won't work right.

I just love all the gun-rag engineers who just know stuff that all the real engineers don't.

What pantloads.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. <stirring the pot a bit> if the internal is so great, why did JMB(may peace be upon him) go with an external on the P35/Hi Power? Because he sold the 1911 rights to Colt, he had to design an entirely new gun from the ground up to avoid using the intellectual property that now belonged to Colt. Kharn Not so. It is why the trigger on the P35 sucks, but the original P35s had internal extractors as well.

You are correct about the internal extractor.  I was reading through the thread and saw the first comment about external on the P35 and was going to add my 1 cent's worth..  I am holding one in my hand with an internal extractor .

Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way.

What about expanded ejection port, improved sights, 8 round mags, skeletonized trigger, etc.?

internal are better, stronger, and are the way God intended....


Someone obviously has not read the gospel of john MOses Browning, fi I were on my own computer I woudl post it for all to read

Quoted: internal are better, stronger, and are the way God intended.... Someone obviously has not read the gospel of john MOses Browning, fi I were on my own computer I woudl post it for all to read

Please!, Allow Me..............


The Holy Gospel of John (Moses Browning) (May the Sauce be upon him!)

1 In the beginning was the 1911, and the 1911 was THE pistol, and it was good.  And behold the Lord said, thou shalt not muck with my disciple John's design for it is good and it workith.  For John made the 1911, and lo all of his weapons, from the designs which I, the Lord, gave him upon the mountain.

2 And shouldst thou muck with it  and hang all manner of foul implements upon it, and profane its internal parts, thou shalt surely have malfunctions, and in the midst of battle thou shalt surely come to harm.

3 And as the ages passed men in their ignorance and arrogance didst forget the word of the Lord and began to profane the 1911.  The tribe of the gamesman did place recoil spring guides and extended slide releases upon the 1911 and their metal smiths didst tighten the tolerances and alter parts to their liking, their clearness of mind being clouded by lust.

4 Their artisans did hang all manner of foul implements upon the 1911 and did so alter it that it became impractical to purchase.  For lo, the artisans didst charge a great tax upon the purchasers of the 1911 so that the lowly field worker could not afford one. And the profaning of the internal parts didst render it unworkable when the dust of the land fell upon it.

5 And lo, they didst install adjustable sights , which are an abomination unto the Lord.  For they doth break and loose their zero when thou dost need true aim.  And those who have done so will be slain in great numbers by their enemies in the great battle.

6 And it came to pass that the Lord didst see the abomination wrought by man and didst cause, as he had warned, fearful malfunctions to come upon the abominations and upon the artisans who thought they could do no wrong.

7 Seeing the malfunctions and the confusion of men the lord of the underworld did see an opportunity to further ensnare man and didst bring forth pistols made of plastic, whose form was such that they looked and felt like a brick, yet the eyes of man being clouded, they were consumed by the plastic pistol and did buy vast quantities of them.

8 And being a deceitful spirit the lord of the underworld did make these plastic pistols unamenable to the artisans of earth and they were unable to muck much with the design, and lo these pistols did function.

9 And the evil one also brought forth pistols in which the trigger didst both cock and fire them and which require a "dingus" to make them appear safe.

10 But man being stupid did not understand these new pistols and did proceed to shoot themselves with the plastic pistol, and with the trigger cocking pistols for lo their manual of arms required great intelligence which man had long since forsaken.  Yet man continue to gloat over these new pistols blaming evil forces for the negligent discharges which they themselves had committed.

11 And when man had been totally ensnared with the plastic pistol, the lord of the underworld didst cause a plague of the terrible Ka-Boom to descend upon man and the plastic pistols delivered their retribution upon men.  And there was a great wailing and gnashing of teeth in the land.

12 Then seeing that the eyes of man were slowly being opened and that man was truly sorrowful for his sinful misdeeds, the Lord did send his messengers in the form of artisans who did hear and obey the teachings of the prophet and who didst restore the profaned 1911s to their proper configuration, and lo, to the amazement of men they didst begin to work as the prophet had intended.

13 And the men of the land didst drive out the charlatans and profaners from the land, and there was joy and peace in the land, except for the evil sprits which tried occasionally to prey on the men and women of the land and who were sent to the place of eternal damnation by the followers of John.

© copyright 2003 by John C. Schaefer

Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. <stirring the pot a bit> if the internal is so great, why did JMB(may peace be upon him) go with an external on the P35/Hi Power?

the original Hi Powers did have internal extractors...

Quoted: Here's what I'd like to know: What is the claimed benefit of an external extractor? In other words, why did anybody bother to change the original design? It seems to me like the original design is just fine (aside from the crude method of adjustment).

So that jackasses can slam the slide shut on a chambered round.

That's the only benefit that I see to it.

Quoted: Quoted: Here's what I'd like to know: What is the claimed benefit of an external extractor? In other words, why did anybody bother to change the original design? It seems to me like the original design is just fine (aside from the crude method of adjustment). So that jackasses can slam the slide shut on a chambered round. That's the only benefit that I see to it.

Is that it, seriously?

Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way.

He did actually.



Supposedly, the US Army wanted it to have an internal extractor because they felt it would be easier for GIs to maintain. They are also the ones that specified that the pistol have a grip safety because the pistol was to be used by calvalry and they didn't want it going off if the soldier lost control of the weapon and it was bouncing all over the place still being attached to the lanyard.

Quoted: Quoted: Let me be the first to say it: If a 1911 was meant to have an external extractor, the great JMB would have designed it that way. What about expanded ejection port, improved sights, 8 round mags, skeletonized trigger, etc.?

Those are just improvements on a great design.

An external extractor is a radical departure from the original. A redesign.

What is a 1911.




I want one but I am all confused.

1911 forums gave me a headache.

Quoted: What is a 1911. I want one but I am all confused. 1911 forums gave me a headache.

Don't worry, you're not missing anything.