I wonder who will be shadowing them.

August 17, 2005

San Francisco heads to yard

By Christopher Munsey
Times staff writer

The attack submarine San Francisco, damaged during a collision with an undersea mountain earlier this year, departed Guam Aug. 17 for a surface transit across the Pacific for permanent repairs at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard in Washington.

San Francisco will make a stop in Pearl Harbor, Hawaii during its voyage back to Washington, said Lt. Cmdr. Jeff Davis, spokesman for Commander, Submarine Force Pacific.

Including the time spent in Hawaii, the transit is expected to take “a few weeks”, Davis said.

San Francisco will not submerge during the transit, but will make the trip under its own power, he said.

One of three attack submarines forward-deployed in Guam, San Francisco crushed its bow during a collision with an undersea mountain in the Pacific near the Caroline Islands Jan. 8.

The collision fatally injured a crew member, Machinist’s Mate 2nd Class Joseph Allen Ashley.

San Francisco underwent temporary repairs at a drydock in Guam at an estimated cost of $19 million, then started two months of training.

The submarine completed a round of sea trials July 25-26, to prove it could safely make it back to Puget Sound under its own power.

The current plan for a permanent repair at the Puget Sound shipyard calls for removing a bow section from a decommissioned Los Angeles-class submarine, removing San Francisco’s repaired bow, and fitting the replacement on, Navy officials have said.

The cost estimate for the permanent repair is $79 million, said Patricia Dolan, a spokeswoman for Naval Sea Systems Command.

Navy officials have said they want to send a replacement submarine to Guam to make up for San Francisco’s absence during the repair process.

The name of the replacement submarine has not been announced.

that must have been one heck of a bump in the night.  

Google  

Quoted: that must have been one heck of a bump in the night.

Quoted: I wonder who will be shadowing them.

You mean our guys, bad guys or both?

I didn't realize we had decommissioned Los Angeles subs...

USSN San Francisco

(Journalists...do they ever get anything right?)

This sounds as bad as those fly by night body shops that weld the front or back half of one car onto another that had crashed.

Quoted: This sounds as bad as those fly by night body shops that weld the front or back half of one car onto another that had crashed.

I guess the idea is corect, but the process is a bit more complicated. This would probably be cheaper than fabricating a whole new front end and welding it on.

Quoted: USSN San Francisco (Journalists...do they ever get anything right?)

I thought the N only appeared in the hull numbers?

Just like something named the "San Francisco" to be ass-ending things in the dark.

Quoted: Quoted: USSN San Francisco (Journalists...do they ever get anything right?) I thought the N only appeared in the hull numbers?

The N denotes nuclear.

Quoted: I wonder who will be shadowing them.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: USSN San Francisco (Journalists...do they ever get anything right?) I thought the N only appeared in the hull numbers? The N denotes nuclear.

I'm well aware of that

I just thought it was only used in the hull numbers:

USS Los Angeles (SSN-688)

USS Ohio (SSBN-726)

USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76)

Quoted: A 'Cut and Shut' sub!!! NO FUCKING WAY WOULD I DIVE IN THAT FUCKER!!!!! ANdy

Don't they build them by welding sections together in the first place?

Quoted: I didn't realize we had decommissioned Los Angeles subs...

\

Seemed strange to me too, but apparently we've got a bunch:

USS Omaha (SSN 692)
USS Cincinnati (SSN 693)
USS Groton (SSN 694)
USS Birmingham (SSN 695)
USS New York City (SSN 696)
USS Indianapolis (SSN 697)
USS Phoenix (SSN 702)
USS Baltimore (SSN 704)
USS Portsmouth (SSN 707)
USS Atlanta (SSN 712)

I didn't realize they came online back in '76.

Quoted: USSN San Francisco (Journalists...do they ever get anything right?)

I don't know. Do they ?

USS San Francisco (SSN 711)

USS San Francisco

I was on the new construction crew of a Trident sub, and yes, they do weld the hull segments together in rings.

I think that is a good workaround.  I would be no more afraid or less afraid to dive in that sub than I was in any of the three I served on.

Quoted: A 'Cut and Shut' sub!!! NO FUCKING WAY WOULD I DIVE IN THAT FUCKER!!!!! ANdy

That's okay, I don't think your name is on the crew manifest.   We have professionals that operate our submarines.

Quoted: A 'Cut and Shut' sub!!! NO FUCKING WAY WOULD I DIVE IN THAT FUCKER!!!!! any sub. ANdy

That's how I feel about it.  I'm glad there's people who like it, it's just not me.

That'll buff right out

Quoted: I wonder who will be shadowing them.

I hope the bad guys shadow that sub! It will have a totally different profile to their sensors after the repairs.

Quoted: Quoted: USSN San Francisco (Journalists...do they ever get anything right?) I don't know. Do they ? USS San Francisco (SSN 711) USS San Francisco

ouch, thats going to leave a mark

Friend of mines son was on the boat when it crashed.

He said it would take a year to get into a dry dock in Bremmerton and two more years to do the repairs.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A 'Cut and Shut' sub!!! NO FUCKING WAY WOULD I DIVE IN THAT FUCKER!!!!! ANdy That's okay, I don't think your name is on the crew manifest.   We have professionals that operate our submarines. Let you in on a secret…  I work for the Royal Navy as a civilian behind a desk now, but I have my Dolphins from back in the day. SO… as I have actually shipped out on a boat I stick to my original comment, No fucking way would I dive on that boat. ANdy

then your a girly man and not a real submariner :p

some hy-80 and a few good welders, she'll be good as new.

Can somebody please explain to me how a multimillion dollar state of the art Nuclear sub with every bell and whistle that can be thought of on board RUN INTO A FRIGGEN MOUNTAIN?  How does that happen anyway, dont these subs have extremely advanced navigation systems on board?  Somebody please clear this up for me.

Quoted: Can somebody please explain to me how a multimillion dollar state of the art Nuclear sub with every bell and whistle that can be thought of on board RUN INTO A FRIGGEN MOUNTAIN?  How does that happen anyway, dont these subs have extremely advanced navigation systems on board?  Somebody please clear this up for me.

They were moving fast, and had bad charts.

TXL

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A 'Cut and Shut' sub!!! NO FUCKING WAY WOULD I DIVE IN THAT FUCKER!!!!! ANdy That's okay, I don't think your name is on the crew manifest.   We have professionals that operate our submarines. Let you in on a secret…  I work for the Royal Navy as a civilian behind a desk now, but I have my Dolphins from back in the day. SO… as I have actually shipped out on a boat I stick to my original comment, No fucking way would I dive on that boat. ANdy

Still, I doubt your name will be on the manifest as we have U.S. professionals who are more than up to the task.  

Perhaps you'd feel more comfortable sailing on one of the boats Britain sold to Canada

Quoted: A 'Cut and Shut' sub!!! NO FUCKING WAY WOULD I DIVE IN THAT FUCKER!!!!! ANdy

Why?  That's how they are made.  A bunch of modules welded together.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: A 'Cut and Shut' sub!!! NO FUCKING WAY WOULD I DIVE IN THAT FUCKER!!!!! ANdy Don't they build them by welding sections together in the first place? Yes they do!  But they don't crash those sections at 30 knots into a mountain first!!!! Would you buy a sports car that had been totalled in a wreck and the auto shop had cut the front off another one and welded it on?

Do you think that nobody is going to bother to lay out some theodolites to make sure everything is straight before welding it up?

Do you think our naval architects and shipwrights are that stupid?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Do you think that nobody is going to bother to lay out some theodolites to make sure everything is straight before welding it up? Do you think our naval architects and shipwrights are that stupid?

He's British, they still all think they're better than the rest of us

Quoted: Can somebody please explain to me how a multimillion dollar state of the art Nuclear sub with every bell and whistle that can be thought of on board RUN INTO A FRIGGEN MOUNTAIN?  How does that happen anyway, dont these subs have extremely advanced navigation systems on board?  Somebody please clear this up for me.

Let me be the first.

GPS does not work under water.  Inertial navigation systems (even ring laser gyros IIRC) have precession errors and need to be updated at regular intervals.  There are no windows or headlamps on subs.  Active sonar is not used to look ahead for obstacles because it gives the boat's position away.  Charts are not always 100% accurate.  People (navigators and quartermasters) sometimes make mistakes in dead reckoning.

Any more questions?

bigger pics:




Apparently, the chart they were using didn't have the mountain on it, but other charts in their possession had a "navigation hazard in the vicinity of the grounding."  

Pic of the sub under repair (May 2005):

Quoted: Quoted: Can somebody please explain to me how a multimillion dollar state of the art Nuclear sub with every bell and whistle that can be thought of on board RUN INTO A FRIGGEN MOUNTAIN?  How does that happen anyway, dont these subs have extremely advanced navigation systems on board?  Somebody please clear this up for me. Let me be the first. GPS does not work under water.  Inertial navigation systems (even ring laser gyros IIRC) have precession errors and need to be updated at regular intervals.  There are no windows or headlamps on subs.  Active sonar is not used to look ahead for obstacles because it gives the boat's position away.  Charts are not always 100% accurate.  People (navigators and quartermasters) sometimes make mistakes in dead reckoning. Any more questions?

I sailed on an Oceanographic Unit taking sounding and other measurements.  We gave special attention to areas that were shallower than a certain depth.  Ships of that type have been working for 40+ years, and still have not mapped all of the oceans of the world.   Another problem is that area is in the "ring of fire."  Remember the tsunami from last year?  There are many active volcanoes under the water.  New sea mountains do literally pop up where they weren't before, or weren't when they were mapped 35 years ago.  We found one that had never been mapped before and it was less than 120 feet from the surface (20 fathoms).  

If you look at the official report that came out of the accident, there were a lot of people and process problems.  One report cited that combining the Quartermaster rating with the Electronic's Rating played a part as the disciplines of the two ratings are quite different.  

Here's a portion of the report.  Someone better at Google can probably find a link to the whole thing, www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=18257

Quoted: Quoted: I didn't realize we had decommissioned Los Angeles subs... \ Seemed strange to me too, but apparently we've got a bunch: USS Omaha (SSN 692) USS Cincinnati (SSN 693) USS Groton (SSN 694) USS Birmingham (SSN 695) USS New York City (SSN 696) USS Indianapolis (SSN 697) USS Phoenix (SSN 702) USS Baltimore (SSN 704) USS Portsmouth (SSN 707) USS Atlanta (SSN 712) I didn't realize they came online back in '76.

If the USN has all of these sitting around......why don't they just paint one of these up......put it on-line and junk the dammaged one?


Not that simple huh?

Quoted: Quoted: Can somebody please explain to me how a multimillion dollar state of the art Nuclear sub with every bell and whistle that can be thought of on board RUN INTO A FRIGGEN MOUNTAIN?  How does that happen anyway, dont these subs have extremely advanced navigation systems on board?  Somebody please clear this up for me. Let me be the first. GPS does not work under water.  Inertial navigation systems (even ring laser gyros IIRC) have precession errors and need to be updated at regular intervals.  There are no windows or headlamps on subs.  Active sonar is not used to look ahead for obstacles because it gives the boat's position away.  Charts are not always 100% accurate.  People (navigators and quartermasters) sometimes make mistakes in dead reckoning. Any more questions?

Yeah, you forgot that undersea mountains are extremely stealthy, and that passive sonar is absolutely destroyed when moving at ahead full or ahead flank, whichever they were doing.

Decommed subs don't just sit around, you shave your face with them every day.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Can somebody please explain to me how a multimillion dollar state of the art Nuclear sub with every bell and whistle that can be thought of on board RUN INTO A FRIGGEN MOUNTAIN?  How does that happen anyway, dont these subs have extremely advanced navigation systems on board?  Somebody please clear this up for me. Let me be the first. GPS does not work under water.  Inertial navigation systems (even ring laser gyros IIRC) have precession errors and need to be updated at regular intervals.  There are no windows or headlamps on subs.  Active sonar is not used to look ahead for obstacles because it gives the boat's position away.  Charts are not always 100% accurate.  People (navigators and quartermasters) sometimes make mistakes in dead reckoning. Any more questions? Yeah, you forgot that undersea mountains are extremely stealthy, and that passive sonar is absolutely destroyed when moving at ahead full or ahead flank, whichever they were doing.

I hope you are trying to be funny.

Of course!  Doesn't the idea of a mountain being stealthy sound funny?

Damn, maybe the ten years I spent on the goddamn boats made my sense of humor bad.  My wife would probably agree.

Quoted: USSN San Francisco (Journalists...do they ever get anything right?)

No, its USS SAN FRANCISCO. N appears in the hull number, as in SSN 688 USS LOS ANGELES.

Quoted: Can somebody please explain to me how a multimillion dollar state of the art Nuclear sub with every bell and whistle that can be thought of on board RUN INTO A FRIGGEN MOUNTAIN?  How does that happen anyway, dont these subs have extremely advanced navigation systems on board?  Somebody please clear this up for me.

I can't tell you who I know who was on that boat, but I can assure you he was ranked at least Lt.Commander, maybe ;) This is the internet, afterall

The reactors have been shut down and more than likely have been defueled, plus they have not been upgraded since the day they were put in mothballs.

That's almost 10 years worth of improvements and maintenance that would be required, not to mention the refueling.

We had 62 Fast Attack LA Class subs, 11 have been removed from the fleet, so we are down to "only" 51.

As to why some of the older subs are still active and some of the newer subs have been scrapped I'll take a wild-assed guess and say that there might have been some "expensive" problems that needed to be fixed.

More than likely they were up for their refueling and it was "cost effective" to decomission them and spend the refueling money on the Virginia Class. The older ones had probably already undergone refueling before the axe fell.

I look at  it like this: Now there are at least 10 almost complete "spares kits" for the LA Class if they need it.



You missed a few.

USS Baton Rouge (SSN 689) Decommission / Stricken Date: 01/13/1995 *Scrapped*
USS Omaha (SSN 692) Decommission / Stricken Date: 10/05/1995 *Scrapped*
USS Cincinnati (SSN 693) Decommission / Stricken Date: 07/29/1996 *Awaiting Disposal*
USS Groton (SSN 694) Decommission / Stricken Date: 11/07/1997 *Awaiting Disposal*
USS Birmingham (SSN 695) Decommission / Stricken Date: 12/22/1997 *Awaiting Disposal*
USS New York City (SSN 696) Decommission / Stricken Date: 04/30/1997 *Awaiting Disposal*
USS Indianapolis (SSN 697) Decommission / Stricken Date: 04/30/1997 *Awaiting Disposal*
USS Phoenix (SSN 702) Decommission / Stricken Date: 07/29/1998 *Awaiting Disposal*
USS Baltimore (SSN 704) Decommission / Stricken Date: 07/10/1998 *Awaiting Disposal*
USS Portsmouth (SSN 707) Decommission Date: 10/10/2004 **Inactive Reserve**
USS Atlanta (SSN 712) Decommission / Stricken Date: 12/16/1999 *Awaiting Disposal*


These submarines were built in three successive variants:

SSNs 688-718 - Original Los Angeles class

SSNs 719-750 - Starting with SSN 719 and beyond the last 31 hulls of the class have 12 vertical launch tubes for the Tomahawk cruise missile, along with an upgraded reactor core.

SSNs 751-773 - The final 23 hulls [SSN 751 and later] referred to as "688I" (for improved), are quieter, incorporate an advanced BSY-1 sonar suite combat system and the ability to lay mines from their torpedo tubes. They are configured for under-ice operations in that their forward diving planes have been moved from the sail structure to the bow and the sail has been strengthened for breaking through ice.

The USS MEMPHIS (SSN 691) has been modified to serve as a test and evaluation platform for advanced submarine systems and equipment, while retaining her combat capability.

Quoted: If the USN has all of these sitting around......why don't they just paint one of these up......put it on-line and junk the dammaged one? Not that simple huh?

Quoted: Quoted: Can somebody please explain to me how a multimillion dollar state of the art Nuclear sub with every bell and whistle that can be thought of on board RUN INTO A FRIGGEN MOUNTAIN?  How does that happen anyway, dont these subs have extremely advanced navigation systems on board?  Somebody please clear this up for me. I can't tell you who I know who was on that boat, but I can assure you he was ranked at least Lt.Commander, maybe ;) This is the internet, afterall

So, that's the Nav, the Eng, the XO, or the CO.  Which is it?

Quoted: The reactors have been shut down and more than likely have been defueled, plus they have not been upgraded since the day they were put in mothballs. That's almost 10 years worth of improvements and maintenance that would be required, not to mention the refueling. We had 62 Fast Attack LA Class subs, 11 have been removed from the fleet, so we are down to "only" 51. As to why some of the older subs are still active and some of the newer subs have been scrapped I'll take a wild-assed guess and say that there might have been some "expensive" problems that needed to be fixed. More than likely they were up for their refueling and it was "cost effective" to decomission them and spend the refueling money on the Virginia Class. The older ones had probably already undergone refueling before the axe fell. I look at  it like this: Now there are at least 10 almost complete "spares kits" for the LA Class if they need it. You missed a few. USS Baton Rouge (SSN 689) Decommission / Stricken Date: 01/13/1995 *Scrapped* USS Omaha (SSN 692) Decommission / Stricken Date: 10/05/1995 *Scrapped* USS Cincinnati (SSN 693) Decommission / Stricken Date: 07/29/1996 *Awaiting Disposal* USS Groton (SSN 694) Decommission / Stricken Date: 11/07/1997 *Awaiting Disposal* USS Birmingham (SSN 695) Decommission / Stricken Date: 12/22/1997 *Awaiting Disposal* USS New York City (SSN 696) Decommission / Stricken Date: 04/30/1997 *Awaiting Disposal* USS Indianapolis (SSN 697) Decommission / Stricken Date: 04/30/1997 *Awaiting Disposal* USS Phoenix (SSN 702) Decommission / Stricken Date: 07/29/1998 *Awaiting Disposal* USS Baltimore (SSN 704) Decommission / Stricken Date: 07/10/1998 *Awaiting Disposal* USS Portsmouth (SSN 707) Decommission Date: 10/10/2004 **Inactive Reserve** USS Atlanta (SSN 712) Decommission / Stricken Date: 12/16/1999 *Awaiting Disposal* These submarines were built in three successive variants: SSNs 688-718 - Original Los Angeles class SSNs 719-750 - Starting with SSN 719 and beyond the last 31 hulls of the class have 12 vertical launch tubes for the Tomahawk cruise missile, along with an upgraded reactor core. SSNs 751-773 - The final 23 hulls [SSN 751 and later] referred to as "688I" (for improved), are quieter, incorporate an advanced BSY-1 sonar suite combat system and the ability to lay mines from their torpedo tubes. They are configured for under-ice operations in that their forward diving planes have been moved from the sail structure to the bow and the sail has been strengthened for breaking through ice. The USS MEMPHIS (SSN 691) has been modified to serve as a test and evaluation platform for advanced submarine systems and equipment, while retaining her combat capability. www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ship/images/ssn-761-p01.jpg Quoted: If the USN has all of these sitting around......why don't they just paint one of these up......put it on-line and junk the dammaged one? Not that simple huh?

Decommed means defueled.  None of those ships are anything left but a hulk.  Already stripped.  Awaiting the razorblade makers.

Nice pic of an EMBT blow on a 688-I.  Could have been mine.

Nope, that was the USS Springfield.

Quoted: Quoted: A 'Cut and Shut' sub!!! NO FUCKING WAY WOULD I DIVE IN THAT FUCKER!!!!! ANdy Why?  That's how they are made.  A bunch of modules welded together.

Ever drive a car that has been reparied after a signifigant crash? They never quite drive "right" even after the reapir.

Now think 1,000,000 times bigger and 750' underwater.......................

Mabe the USN is planning something special.  Like the Parche.

I have no doubt that they can do it and there will be no problems.

I have flown in an aircraft that was damaged on take-off, it required the entire front section of the fuselage to be replaced.

36,000 feet at 425 KIAS.  

It was one of the nicest flying planes when they were done.

Quoted: Ever drive a car that has been reparied after a signifigant crash? They never quite drive "right" even after the reapir. Now think 1,000,000 times bigger and 750' underwater.......................