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Posted: 6/19/2001 5:19:51 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: I've even had an ATF agent tell over the phone that if the owner of a preban lower put a postban upper on it and then sold it to you, you couldn't put another preban upper on it. that ATF agent doesnt know his laws once a grandfathered AW always a grandfathered AW |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 5:24:36 PM EDT
[#2]
Look here..
[url]http://www.olyarms.com/serialnumbers.html[/url] Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 5:44:41 PM EDT
[#3]
I call the ATF, and they said that in the absence of a factory letter, a signed statement from a dealer or previous owner that the rifle was fully assembled or part of a kit prior to the ban is considered legal evidence of pre-ban status. The agent said that such a document "would keep you reasonably safe." Notice I said 'evidence', not 'proof'. Only a factory letter is truly proof.
Let's say that in a worse case scenario, that they trace the rifle anyway (very unlikely unless they're really fishing for something about you) and it turns out to be post-ban. You could show that document and say that you bought the rifle in good faith. They could then go after whoever wrote the document for perjury. |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 5:55:52 PM EDT
[#4]
Miss Cleo? [:D] |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 5:59:50 PM EDT
[#5]
OK, is there some way to tell if any of the parts, such as tele-stock, are Olympic?
The reason I ask this is that somebody I know has an Olympic lower that he says came to him with an Olymic pistol caliber upper and an Olympic collapsible stock. But once again, I guess somebody could have easily bought a stripped lower before ban, and assembled all that after the ban. Also on Olympics website, correct me if I'm wrong, but it states that the SGN receivers were only shipped as stripped lowers. And that they were cast. Two questions here. Do cast lowers suck? Once again, what's the chances somebody back then bought a lower and assembled it into a post ban configuration? |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 6:10:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Uh Oh... here we go again...
"There's no such thing as a new pre-ban lower" "The second ammendment doesn't specify what kind of stock the gun has" "It's up to the owner to prove status" "It's up to the ATF to prove status" "They will kick your door in and kill you with their MP5's if you get caught with an illiget pre-ban" "They will never prosecute you for possesing one unless they really want to hang you for something else" I'm sure I left some out. I think if the receiver in question was manufactured WAY before the ban (like late 1980's or earlier), they would have a hell of a time convincing a judge or a jury that it didn't become a rifle until after the ban. There are so many factors left up to the interpretation of the court that I doubt even ATF really knows the status of every lower they investigate (if any). By the same token, they can probably railroad you to prison if they want anyway, guilty or not. IT'S A BAD LAW TO THE WORST DEGREE! WE'RE ALREADY TAKING OUR CHANCES EVEN IF WE OBEY IT. Anyone seen Catch 22? |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 7:02:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Correct me if I am wrong but, the SGW stop sign marked lowers were all preban and all forged. The "SGW" serial numbered lowers are post ban and cast.
For instance, I have a SGW stop sign lower that is serial numbered "TBOR****" and is one of the remanufactured Berillyium Copper lowers. It is now forged aluminum and was originally shipped with an A1 upper receiver in 1991. It is pre-ban by date, only shipped (according to Olympic) coupled to an A1 upper receiver but there is no way to prove that it was manufactured as a complete rifle in the three years that it would have had to sit not even in the general vicinity of a parts kit. (If it was near its own parts kit, even unassembled, it would be considered a pre-ban. That right there shows how stupid this whole thing is.) All in all, who cares. There are holes big enough to drive a truck through on this issue and the BATF doesn't want to touch it because they know how screwed up the present ruling is, and they won't fix it by declaring the only legal and logical thing. They should statethat from now on if the lower itself was manufactured before the ban it is pre-ban. If it wasn't, its post. I am STILL waiting for someone to post a verifiable reference of a person convicted for a pre-ban configuration on a so called unverified pre-ban lower receiver. |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 7:06:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks for the clear up on the stop sign lowers.
And that's a good question. Has anybody been convicted of this? |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 7:20:48 PM EDT
[#9]
The only way for the BATF to prove that the lower was never assembled is to have an auditable chain of custody from the moment the lower was manaufactured until midnight on 14 Sept 1994 (or whatever the day the bad started). If the lower was out of the audit chain for even one day the lower could have been assembled into a rifle and then disassembled and replaced.
Figure the odds? Anyone that has a lower that they're not so sure about that has a pre-ban serial number may sell it to me for a fair used post-ban price - say about $100 minus a bit for wear and tear. Please email with available pre-ban lowers. Thanks - awaiting the first fifty - hurry to be the first! The same goes for normal capacity magazines manufactured after 1994 without a date code on them. They may be able to that they were manufactured post ’94 by examining tool marks but convince a jury that a normal human could tell the date of manufacture without the resources of the federal government. |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 7:37:31 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Uh Oh... here we go again... "There's no such thing as a new pre-ban lower" Actually, there is such a thing. The Oly TBOR 1791 to TBOR 1991 SN lowers were made special to celebrate the Bill of rights. They were made with some kind of alloy that did not work out. That was in 1991. After the ban they realized they had them in possesion a whole bunch of Pre ban recievers. They destroyed them and remade them as standard forged lowers with the same range of numbers. Thus, a new pre ban [:)] Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img] |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 8:43:14 PM EDT
[#11]
What you need to do is post this question over on the Oly board and email Tom Spithaour directly with the serial number.
I have heard that there ARE some stop sign lowers that are post-bans. My rule of thumb: If the serial number shows that it was made at least 2 years (longer is better) before the ban then I would buy it. No one can prove in what condition it left Oly or in what condition it was sold. I would "think" that there are enough people out there who probably changed the configuration of the AR15's at least once during the time they owned it. I would stay away from anything made oh say Sept 1994, unless the seller had the original Oly build sheet and the original dated reciept from where it was bought. Check out the legal section, ask Troy. Wow, 11 posts and not one "Oly sucks" amongst them. [X] |
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Posted: 6/19/2001 8:50:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Do you have a time machine? Tom Spitanhour -that's cute
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Posted: 6/19/2001 8:52:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Seriously ask Stokes - STOKES!!!!! WHERE YOU AT? - goto his forum.
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Posted: 6/19/2001 11:04:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: For instance, I have a SGW stop sign lower that is serial numbered "TBOR****" and is one of the remanufactured Berillyium Copper lowers. I also have a TBOR! |
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Posted: 8/1/2001 9:56:49 AM EDT
[#15]
I own a brand new preban, made in 2000. I shipped Oly my preban 1991 lower. They destroyed it and "repaired" it by stamping the preban serial number/model on a new forged lower. Simple!
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Posted: 8/1/2001 8:39:48 PM EDT
[#16]
I know that most people don't like this, or want to hear it, or whatever, but this is what the lawyers in the Legal forum have advised:
The burden of proof is on the prosecution, but ONLY to prove that the gun in question is configured to meet the criteria of being an "Assault Weapon" under the law. The "default status" of any "Assault Weapon" is banned. [b]It is then up to the defense to prove that the gun in question meets the criteria to be exempted from the ban under the grandfathering clause of the law.[/b] Evidence meeting the rules of the court (i.e., no "heresy") must be presented to prove the status of the rifle. The prosecution can then challenge this evidence, and so on. The above is true due to the way the law is written, and this is how our court system works. [b]Based on this, the safest recommendation is to have some kind of written "proof" if you were not in legal possession of the rifle in AW configuration on 9/13/94.[/b] Note that I'm not suggesting any course of action for anyone; I'm merely passing on reasoned legal advice from those with more experience in this matter than I. Also note that there have been, to this point, some, but very few people who have been charged with the creation of an illegal AW as the sole charge. Most of the time, this is an "add-on" charge to another, more serious crime. You must evaluate your own "exposure" to the law. -Troy |
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