Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids
The Guardian | Steve Bradshaw

The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk.

The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV.

A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue.

The church's claims are revealed in a BBC1 Panorama programme, Sex and the Holy City, to be broadcast on Sunday. The president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, told the programme: "The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom.

"These margins of uncertainty... should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The WHO has condemned the Vatican's views, saying: "These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people, and currently affects at least 42 million."

The organisation says "consistent and correct" condom use reduces the risk of HIV infection by 90%. There may be breakage or slippage of condoms - but not, the WHO says, holes through which the virus can pass .

Scientific research by a group including the US National Institutes of Health and the WHO found "intact condoms... are essentially impermeable to particles the size of STD pathogens including the smallest sexually transmitted virus... condoms provide a highly effective barrier to transmission of particles of similar size to those of the smallest STD viruses".

The Vatican's Cardinal Trujillo said: "They are wrong about that... this is an easily recognisable fact."

The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend.

In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms."

Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

Panorama found the claims about permeable condoms repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

· Steve Bradshaw is a correspondent with Panorama. Sex and the Holy City will be broadcast on BBC1 at 10.15pm on Sunday.

How dare you point out that the Catholic church is full of shit.

i still have no clue as to why so many people still buy into the insanity coming from these people.

are the people of the poorest, most aids-stricken nations supposed to be thankful for the catholic church's continued efforts to stop safe-sex practices over there?

yes, condoms are not 100%, but they sure are a hell-of-a-lot safer than raw-dogging it.

Newsflash: condoms without Nonoxynol(sp?)-9 DO NOT protect against HIV. Based on my reading, wearing a hat during sex with an HIV+ person will do exactly as much good as wearing an ordinary condom. The Magisteruim is right on this one.

Quoted: Newsflash: condoms without Nonoxynol(sp?)-9 DO NOT protect against HIV. Based on my reading, wearing a hat during sex with an HIV+ person will do exactly as much good as wearing an ordinary condom. The Magisteruim is right on this one.

most condoms, atleast the ones i use, come with it.

secondly, a source for that please?

Newsflash: condoms without Nonoxynol(sp?)-9 DO NOT protect against HIV. Based on my reading, wearing a hat during sex with an HIV+ person will do exactly as much good as wearing an ordinary condom. The Magisteruim is right on this one.

NONOX-9 kills sperm, it has nothing to do with HIV transmission. The latex barrier is what stops the spread of the virus. Unless you can prove otherwise, I'm calling bullshit.

Quoted: Newsflash: condoms without Nonoxynol(sp?)-9 DO NOT protect against HIV. Based on my reading, wearing a hat during sex with an HIV+ person will do exactly as much good as wearing an ordinary condom. The Magisteruim is right on this one.

Nonoxynol 9 is just spermacied. It has no affect on AIDS.

cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?nonoxynol+9

I got to say........WTF

No condoms are not great protection, but better than nothing the best with be no sex that can cause fiuld transfer in any open orfice or wound.

You got a link?

Because I have a really hard time believing this.

The Church teaches abstance...not safe sex.

Sgtar15

Quoted: You got a link? Because I have a really hard time believing this. The Church teaches abstance...not safe sex. Sgtar15

as if i would have to make something up in respects to the catholic church being assbackwards...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/aids/story/0,7369,1059068,00.html

The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend. In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms." Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through". In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids."

The article points out the clear position of the Church and why.  Then later it uses the actions of a small handful of practitioners and trys to portray them as representing the official Church stance and to give a  negative image on the congregation as a whole.

Nice try...but that's a HELL of a stretch!


NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Sgtar15

Quoted: The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend. In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms." Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through". In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids." The article points out the clear position of the Church and why.  Then later it uses the actions of a small handful of practitioners and trys to portray them as representing the official Church stance and to give a  negative image on the congregation as a whole. Nice try...but that's a HELL of a stretch! NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sgtar15

you're kidding right? you dismiss this whole article (and many others i just found) because there arent enough specific examples listed?

you know the catholics ridiculous, dangerous, costly, and deadly position on the use of condoms, and you still dismiss this article? ok..

god damn, how ignorant can a person really be?

No I did not dismiss the article.  It clearly states the Churches offical stance on the use of Condoms.

You would be surprised at the number of Catholic out there that preach/talk contrary to what the Church stands for.

John Kerry is a perfect example of this.



Tell me, if you truly believe that the Church is wants this to occur what do you  think is their motivation?  What do they have to gain?

Sgtar15

PS  Keep in mind that the reason the Catholic are there in the first place is to HELP these people.

Quoted: No I did not dismiss the article.  It clearly states the Churches offical stance on the use of Condoms. You would be surprised at the number of Catholic out there that preach/talk contrary to what the Church stands for. John Kerry is a perfect example of this. Tell me, if you truly believe that the Church is wants this to occur what do you  think is their motivation?  What do they have to gain? Sgtar15 PS  Keep in mind that the reason the Catholic are there in the first place is to HELP these people.

why do i think they hold on to this illogical, inane, and draconian idea in regards to 'safe sex'? for the same reason many governments try to control every aspect of their citizens' lives; control, and control leads to more power and even more influence.

and how is 'the church' helping people by brainwashing them into believing ridiculous things like condoms 'being laced with aids' and that people are even more likely to contract aids if they use a condom?

how are they helping by setting up even more people to get STD's, by not only condemning the use of condoms, but going a step further to villify them and spread disinformation?

how are they 'helping' people by setting it up so poverty stricken families get to have even more children they already cannot feed?

and another thing, why don't they put more time and effort into helping those who are already born and actually living, rather than worrying about something that hasnt even come into existance yet?

if that is their idea of 'helping', they can keep their fucking help.

Quoted: How dare you point out that the Catholic church is full of shit.

And still protecting/hiding child molesters.



Criminals.

I'm with sgtar15 on this,  what the Church is trying to tell them is that if you are not promiscuous, you don't have to worry about AIDS.  

Not to mention, if you think that the people who supply 3rd world countries with medical supplies are above sabotaging those supplies, do a little internet search on vaccinations.  Especially ones administered over and over to women in 3rd world countries that caused sterilization in those women.  

Quoted: Quoted: The church opposes any kind of contraception because it claims it breaks the link between sex and procreation - a position Pope John Paul II has fought to defend. In Kenya - where an estimated 20% of people have HIV - the church condemns condoms for promoting promiscuity and repeats the claim about permeability. The archbishop of Nairobi, Raphael Ndingi Nzeki, said: "Aids... has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms." Sex and the Holy City includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choirmaster against using condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through". In Lwak, near Lake Victoria, the director of an Aids testing centre says he cannot distribute condoms because of church opposition. Gordon Wambi told the programme: "Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids." The article points out the clear position of the Church and why.  Then later it uses the actions of a small handful of practitioners and trys to portray them as representing the official Church stance and to give a  negative image on the congregation as a whole. Nice try...but that's a HELL of a stretch! NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sgtar15 you're kidding right? you dismiss this whole article (and many others i just found) because there arent enough specific examples listed? you know the catholics ridiculous, dangerous, costly, and deadly position on the use of condoms, and you still dismiss this article? ok.. god damn, how ignorant can a person really be?

Damn, how badly can a person be lacking in common sense and self control.  If 20% of your population has AIDS, maybe it would be in their best interest to be told to keep it in their pants.

Quoted: Newsflash: condoms without Nonoxynol(sp?)-9 DO NOT protect against HIV. Based on my reading, wearing a hat during sex with an HIV+ person will do exactly as much good as wearing an ordinary condom. The Magisteruim is right on this one.

wrong

its a spermicide and has no effect on the HIV virus.  It does make it more likely to preven pregnancy though.

Quoted: why do i think they hold on to this illogical, inane, and draconian idea in regards to 'safe sex'? for the same reason many governments try to control every aspect of their citizens' lives; control, and control leads to more power and even more influence.

Well, because the only way to be 100% safe from STD's and preggers is not having sex.  That and the Church considers it a sin prior to marriage.

and how is 'the church' helping people by brainwashing them into believing ridiculous things like condoms 'being laced with aids' and that people are even more likely to contract aids if they use a condom? how are they helping by setting up even more people to get STD's, by not only condemning the use of condoms, but going a step further to villify them and spread disinformation?

I am more than willing to bet that these specific people on this program are sadly misinformed.  They are wrong and should be corrected.  But thats not the point.

how are they 'helping' people by setting it up so poverty stricken families get to have even more children they already cannot feed?

 

They feed and cloth them.  Can't control the people after that.

and another thing, why don't they put more time and effort into helping those who are already born and actually living, rather than worrying about something that hasnt even come into existance yet?

They do, like I said, they are helping feed and cloth them.  Missionaries from all types of churches do great work like this...even here in the USA.

if that is their idea of 'helping', they can keep their fucking help.

Got it.  You are against the Church feeding the tarving, clothing the naked, and caring about children.


Sgtar15

Um, the Roman Catholic church has always professed that all forms of "safe sex" are a sin.

For instance, pulling out, condoms, diaphrams, castration, ect. are all sins in the Catholic religion. And people wonder why I dropped out of favor in Catholism after being a Roman Catholic baptisted and raised for 12 years.

Too much bull.

Quoted: Um, the Roman Catholic church has always professed that all forms of "safe sex" are a sin. For instance, pulling out, condoms, diaphrams, castration, ect. are all sins in the Catholic religion. And people wonder why I dropped out of favor in Catholism after being a Roman Catholic baptisted and raised for 12 years. Too much bull.

Why?  For stating their beliefs?

The only way to be 100% sure of safe sex is no sex...period.  What the Church taught you wasn't bullshit, it was their beliefs.  You just choose to ignore it.

SGtar15

Quoted: n mind that the reason the Catholic are there in the first place is to HELP CONTROL these people.

Fixed that for you.

Quoted: Quoted: n mind that the reason the Catholic are there in the first place is to HELP CONTROL these people. Fixed that for you.

Do you really believe that?

What do they benefit by controling large masses of HIV infected poor people?

SGtar15

Hey can I call BULLSHIT? please please please let me call BULLSHIT too?!?!

Ok, condoms is kinda like flak jackets    Whereas the flak jacket wont protect you from a direct hit you wont catch me in the combat zone without one  

Besides, the way I see it why not wear a condom, it's one thing to be taking a chance on allowing yourself to get something nasty but noone should knowingly bring a new life into the world that has a hopeless life full of pain and suffering, now that ain't fuckin right and everyone here knows it!

Just call the Trojan man...besides, the Catholic regime has been fillin folks full of shit for 100's of years and they have way too much power...yes they utilize their religous position as a means of power...I say this because they have had entirely too much dealings in the actions of various governments.  Anyway, I don't want anyone to thing I am busting on Catholic folks, if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior then God Bless You.  I just think the Catholic church in general has way too much political power base.  The Pope may think he is infallible but he aint...only Jesus was perfect.  Not men.

Thanks,
Wes

Quoted: Um, the Roman Catholic church has always professed that all forms of "safe sex" are a sin. For instance, pulling out, condoms, diaphrams, castration, ect. are all sins in the Catholic religion. And people wonder why I dropped out of favor in Catholism after being a Roman Catholic baptisted and raised for 12 years. Too much bull.

Really, because the way I was taught, you are supposed to perform "safe sex"  the safest of all, sex with your wife or husband within the boundries of marriage.

Have I always lived up to that?
No.
Do I still believe that that is the right thing to do?
Absolutely.

If everyone followed that teaching, we wouldn't have the sexual disease epidemics that we face today.

Time to do a little more teaching about being responsible, moral human beings instead of teaching how to get away with fucking around like the neighborhood dog.

Quoted: So you'd prefer to give your own WIFE HIV rather than wear a condom? -Troy

Not at all.  But if I had HIV and my wife didn't then where the fuck did I get it from?

Sgatr15

Quoted: Quoted: Um, the Roman Catholic church has always professed that all forms of "safe sex" are a sin. For instance, pulling out, condoms, diaphrams, castration, ect. are all sins in the Catholic religion. And people wonder why I dropped out of favor in Catholism after being a Roman Catholic baptisted and raised for 12 years. Too much bull. Really, because the way I was taught, you are supposed to perform "safe sex"  the safest of all, sex with your wife or husband within the boundries of marriage. Have I always lived up to that? No. Do I still believe that that is the right thing to do? Absolutely. If everyone followed that teaching, we wouldn't have the sexual disease epidemics that we face today. Time to do a little more teaching about being responsible, moral human beings instead of teaching how to get away with fucking around like the neighborhood dog.

Well said.

SGatr15

Quoted: Are you going to put her life at risk by not wearing a condom? -Troy

No, I would stop having sex with her.  Keep in mind these are 3rd world countries.  These people don't take on resposibility the same way you and I do.


SGatr15

Quoted: Why?  For stating their beliefs? The only way to be 100% sure of safe sex is no sex...period.  What the Church taught you wasn't bullshit, it was their beliefs.  You just choose to ignore it. SGtar15

SGtar, being a Catholic for 12 years made me realize somethings.

Sometimes it isn't belief, sometimes it's bullshit.

Quoted: Really, because the way I was taught, you are supposed to perform "safe sex"  the safest of all, sex with your wife or husband within the boundries of marriage.

People have gotten HIV from blood transfusions in the past (although the possibility is miniscule now). Many hospital technicans and nurses have gotten HIV from accidently getting pricked by HIV postive needles. Is getting a needle accidently pricked into you and getting infected cheating?


Also, safe sex does not just cover STDs... Some couples (understandibly) do not want offspring. Perhaps it's me, but I think it's more rhetorical output by the Vatican that disables people from the freedom of living. I fail to see how using a condom, our pulling your penis out of your wife's vagina before you ejaculate, means you are a sinner. Can you really equate using a condom to that of committing a murder or stealing a car?

Well, the Catholic church can, oddly enough.

No I think I finally see your point.

We ought to just say "Fuck it, you guys are not real human beings with self control, so let's just permanently attach this condom to your dick and we'll just drain it off when it gets full.  Because since you obviously can't think for yourselves, we also can't trust you to figure out how to put one on and take it off afterwards."

Come on, these are uneducated people but their not fucking animals.  Why don't we try teaching them the right way first.

Quoted: Quoted: Really, because the way I was taught, you are supposed to perform "safe sex"  the safest of all, sex with your wife or husband within the boundries of marriage. People have gotten HIV from blood transfusions in the past (although the possibility is miniscule now). Many hospital technicans and nurses have gotten HIV from accidently getting pricked by HIV postive needles. Is getting a needle accidently pricked into you and getting infected cheating? Also, safe sex does not just cover STDs... Some couples (understandibly) do not want offspring. Perhaps it's me, but I think it's more rhetorical output by the Vatican that disables people from the freedom of living. I fail to see how using a condom, our pulling your penis out of your wife's vagina before you ejaculate, means you are a sinner. Can you really equate using a condom to that of committing a murder or stealing a car? Well, the Catholic church can, oddly enough.

Gee, I have 4 children and my wife and I have decided to take a break, maybe not have anymore at all.  By keeping track of her cycle, we have avoided getting her pregnant for over 2 years, WITHOUT the use of condoms, the pill, etc.

Once again, a little self control, like not getting any for a couple days out of the month takes care of that problem.

No I think I finally see your point.


You obviously don't.


We ought to just say "Fuck it, you guys are not real human beings with self control"

Which is stupid, and which I never insinuated. If you want to pull this bullshit of putting words in my mouth - this is neither the time nor the place. This is a double-standard, obviously.


so let's just permanently attach this condom to your dick and we'll just drain it off when it gets full.  Because since you obviously can't think for yourselves, we also can't trust you to figure out how to put one on and take it off afterwards."

And you totally miss my argument. My argument is that, for me, it would be a sin in my religion to wear a condom to prevent pregnancy or anything else. It would be a sin to even pull-out. If I can't even be unregulated to having sex with my wife, where is freedom or spirituality in a religion? If anything it's more of a cult or an ordering than a belief.


Come on, these are uneducated people but their not fucking animals.  Why don't we try teaching them the right way first.

...This has nothing to do with my argument.

Quoted: Quoted: These people don't take on resposibility the same way you and I do. SGatr15 Agreed, but you've made my point.  We can't count on them not to commit adultry, so we're going to further compound the problem by preventing them from using condoms to protect their uninfected partners? -Troy

Well that is true.  My point was that these are the same people that think having sex with a virgin will cure aids.  I don't know the exact goal of these missionaries, but I bet it is to try to cut down on the number of sexual acts period.


SGatr15

Quoted: Also, safe sex does not just cover STDs... Some couples (understandibly) do not want offspring. Perhaps it's me, but I think it's more rhetorical output by the Vatican that disables people from the freedom of living. I fail to see how using a condom, our pulling your penis out of your wife's vagina before you ejaculate, means you are a sinner. Can you really equate using a condom to that of committing a murder or stealing a car? Well, the Catholic church can, oddly enough.

SOme couples fail to understand that the main goal of marriage is to have children.

Otherwise what's the point?  Just to fuck?

SGatr15

Quoted: Gee, I have 4 children and my wife and I have decided to take a break, maybe not have anymore at all.  By keeping track of her cycle, we have avoided getting her pregnant for over 2 years, WITHOUT the use of condoms, the pill, etc.

Then you're lucky, considering a woman can get pregnant at just about any time of her cycle - including menstruation.

This isn't birth control, it's birth avoidance. It works about as well for contraception as drinking olive oil after sex is for abortion.


Once again, a little self control, like not getting any for a couple days out of the month takes care of that problem.

And why bother? No thank you, I'd rather be able to regulate my own business. Since when should religion regulate copulation with a man and his wife?

Guess what Sturmwehr, YOUR religion, which you call bullshit, is the same one I have been a proud member of for almost 30 years.  So you don't have to quote the rules to me.

Quoted: SOme couples fail to understand that the main goal of marriage is to have children. Otherwise what's the point?  Just to fuck? SGatr15

sgatr, that's completely YOUR opinion.

I don't know about you, but most people get married because they love each other and want to spend the rest of their lives together. Children are an afterthought most usually. I for one, don't care for kids, I wouldn't want to have any. Many I know feel this way too. Does this mean I shouldn't spend the rest of my life with someone I love?

What kind of flawed logic is that?

Quoted: No, I would stop having sex with her.  Keep in mind these are 3rd world countries.  These people don't take on resposibility the same way you and I do. SGatr15

What dumbass statement. I'm from a Third World country, I'm also a U.S. citizen, and 'these people' take on responsibility in all realms of life just as much as here in the U.S., if not more so.

Quoted: Guess what Sturmwehr, YOUR religion, which you call bullshit, is the same one I have been a proud member of for almost 30 years.  So you don't have to quote the rules to me.

Good for you, but I gave up Catholism after confirmation.

I practiced the religion and was a member of it, I think I have every right to give a personal opinion on the religion.

Quoted: Quoted: Gee, I have 4 children and my wife and I have decided to take a break, maybe not have anymore at all.  By keeping track of her cycle, we have avoided getting her pregnant for over 2 years, WITHOUT the use of condoms, the pill, etc. Then you're lucky, considering a woman can get pregnant at just about any time of her cycle - including menstruation. This isn't birth control, it's birth avoidance. It works about as well for contraception as drinking olive oil after sex is for abortion. Once again, a little self control, like not getting any for a couple days out of the month takes care of that problem. And why bother? No thank you, I'd rather be able to regulate my own business. Since when should religion regulate copulation with a man and his wife?

Damn I must really be lucky, cause my wife is about as fertile as they come.  No pun intended.  

BTW that method IS a proven method of birth control.

I've got over 2 years of proof right here.

Quoted: Quoted: No, I would stop having sex with her.  Keep in mind these are 3rd world countries.  These people don't take on resposibility the same way you and I do. SGatr15 What dumbass statement. I'm from a Third World country, I'm also a U.S. citizen, and 'these people' take on responsibility in all realms of life just as much as here in the U.S., if not more so.

Which country?


Was it the African continent?  If so, why don't YOU tell us about the Aids situation is like and what the Catholic Church is REALLY doing to help these people.

Please...I value your input.

SGatr15

Sgatr15

Quoted: BTW that method IS a proven method of birth control. I've got over 2 years of proof right here.

I can play Russian Roulette for 2 years and not paint the walls with my brain matter. Does that mean I'm immortal?

Quoted: Quoted: Guess what Sturmwehr, YOUR religion, which you call bullshit, is the same one I have been a proud member of for almost 30 years.  So you don't have to quote the rules to me. Good for you, but I gave up Catholism after confirmation. I practiced the religion and was a member of it, I think I have every right to give a personal opinion on the religion.

Kind of missed the whole point of Confirmation didn't we?

Never said you couldn't comment on a religion.

Quoted: sgatr, that's completely YOUR opinion.

That's the stance of the Church.  Can't you love someone and not live with them?


It is obvios that your beef with the Church is that you just want to have sex.  I can understand that.  But just be honest with yourself instead of trying to convince me that the Church is wrong in their beliefs.


There are very good reasons why theses beliefs are in place.  But if you want to try to claim higher moral ground then the Church just because you want to fuck be my guest.....


SGtar15

Quoted: Kind of missed the whole point of Confirmation didn't we?

I didn't really want to believe in something that didn't believe in me, as a person.

Catholism tends to be too judgemental to people, damning some because of what they do is considered a sin - when they're perfectly fine and upstanding people that believe in the faith. That's much akin to a child spitting in his parents face.

Man I'm tired of being on a .  This reminds me of trying to argue with an anti-gunner about guns.  Some people refuse to see logic.

I've got shooting to do tomorrow.
Need sleep.

Later
Justin

Quoted: Quoted: Kind of missed the whole point of Confirmation didn't we? I didn't really want to believe in something that didn't believe in me, as a person. Catholism tends to be too judgemental to people, damning some because of what they do is considered a sin - when they're perfectly fine and upstanding people that believe in the faith. That's much akin to a child spitting in his parents face.

Yeah...I oncve felt like that....Then I learned it was me that mis heard the majority of the time.


ANd Confirmation was in the 7th grade right?


SO you were 12 or 13 when you left the CHurch?

Didn't give it much of a chance did you?

SGatr15