this is for the christians, or those who claim to be born again, catholics too would be included in this

can a christian, or child of God actually vote for kerry and not be voting against what God would have us do?

Protestants,Catholics and Eastern Orthodox folks can be pretty well divided along political lines,just like non-theists (not sure about Eastern religions). It usually boils down to what they feel is the greater threat to America: the poor not having socialized medicine and welfare, or family values/anti-homosexual agenda/anti-porn/abortion.
It's usually hard to define by religion, or even denomination/sect within religion until you get down to the individual church level. Even then, a church will probably still run about 80%/20% as far as who they vote for.

People are going to do what they do... Christian or not. Some people can rationalize voting for Kerry (For Change! For Whatever Stupid Reason!)

I have been praying that America gets the President it needs. NOT the President it deserves.

For Roman Catholics, there are five non-negotiable guides for picking a candidate:

Abortion

Euthanasia

Stem Cell Research

Same Sex Marriage

Cloning


Given this, I have no friggin idea how anyone calling themselves Catholic could vote for that lying traitor, Kerry.


ETA this link: I give these out to anyone who tells me they are Catholic but like Kerry.

If a person's faith is real, the values and principles with guide his actions and shape his worldview.

One thing I cannot understand is people who compartmentalize their lives to the point that they will advocate morality in the church setting, but then vote a completely different set of morals.

Everybody casts their vote based upon the system of morality they live by and the values they hold dear.  Mine just happen to generally line up with the Bible.

Quoted: For Roman Catholics, there are five non-negotiable guides for picking a candidate: Abortion Euthanasia Stem Cell Research Same Sex Marriage Cloning Given this, I have no friggin idea how anyone calling themselves Catholic could vote for that lying traitor, Kerry. ETA this link: I give these out to anyone who tells me they are Catholic but like Kerry.

i think the same way, those are non negotiable, and someone who is supposed to be Christ like should not vote that way, this is confusing me, maybee all who say they are a christian/catholic are playing games

Quoted: this is for the christians, or those who claim to be born again, catholics too would be included in this

Well that's mighty white of you...thanks.


In answer to your question, any Christian that votes for a pro-abortion canidate should be ashamed of themselves.  



Sgatr15

Quoted: this is for the christians, or those who claim to be born again, catholics too would be included in this can a christian, or child of God actually vote for kerry and not be voting against what God would have us do?

IMO, no.

However, I know Christians who think the same of us because W went to war, and these people are die-hard pacifists. They would open the door for their jailers as they were led to the lions.

Idiots, in my book. The Lord didn't give me my life just to throw it away...

Quoted: Quoted: this is for the christians, or those who claim to be born again, catholics too would be included in this Well that's mighty white of you...thanks. In answer to your question, any Christian that votes for a pro-abortion canidate should be ashamed of themselves.   Sgatr15

Nope,

I GUARANTEE you that they've rationalized it out in their mind and I don't think you'd be able to change hardly ANY one of their opinions.

I hate my Biblical beliefs to be LOWERED to the political realm, but I don't see how a Bible beleving Christian could vote for John Kerry.

My interpretation of Scripture. Others have to do their own homework.

Kerry gives Catholicism a black eye.
He's a perfect example of "Faith without works". He votes in favor of sin every chance he gets.

Quoted: For Roman Catholics, there are five non-negotiable guides for picking a candidate: Abortion Euthanasia Stem Cell Research Same Sex Marriage Cloning

Didn't those appear this week in USAToday under an ad titled "A Voting Guide for Cathilics"?

Quoted: Quoted: this is for the christians, or those who claim to be born again, catholics too would be included in this Well that's mighty white of you...thanks. In answer to your question, any Christian that votes for a pro-abortion canidate should be ashamed of themselves.   Sgatr15

+1 on the "mighty white of you"

Quoted: For Roman Catholics, there are five non-negotiable guides for picking a candidate: Abortion Euthanasia Stem Cell Research Same Sex Marriage Cloning

This is enllightening to me.  I'm apathetic about marriage, same sex or otherwise (attention gays: be careful what you wish for), but I'm all for the other 80% of your list.  I can't comprehend, for example, why anyone would want to stand in the way of some of the most important medical advances ever by opposing stem cell research.  And my girlfriend's mother just died of brain cancer.  Euthanasia six months ago would have been merciful.  I'd like my plug pulled if and when I reach that level of suffering and indignity.  Last but not least, who can walk into a Walmart and not wish for more abortions?  :)  So, seriously, what do my beliefs make me in the eyes of Catholics?  And here I thought I was a pretty decent sort.

Quoted: Quoted: For Roman Catholics, there are five non-negotiable guides for picking a candidate: Abortion Euthanasia Stem Cell Research Same Sex Marriage Cloning This is enllightening to me.  I'm apathetic about marriage, same sex or otherwise (attention gays: be careful what you wish for), but I'm all for the other 80% of your list.  I can't comprehend, for example, why anyone would want to stand in the way of some of the most important medical advances ever by opposing stem cell research.  And my girlfriend's mother just died of brain cancer.  Euthanasia six months ago would have been merciful.  I'd like my plug pulled if and when I reach that level of suffering and indignity.  Last but not least, who can walk into a Walmart and not wish for more abortions?  :)  So, seriously, what do my beliefs make me in the eyes of Catholics?  And here I thought I was a pretty decent sort.

there are alot of decent people in hell

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: this is for the christians, or those who claim to be born again, catholics too would be included in this Well that's mighty white of you...thanks. In answer to your question, any Christian that votes for a pro-abortion canidate should be ashamed of themselves.   Sgatr15 +1 on the "mighty white of you"

what was meant was that i think christians and catholics are both believers in christ, it was not meant to be demeaning, geez

Quoted: Quoted: For Roman Catholics, there are five non-negotiable guides for picking a candidate: Abortion Euthanasia Stem Cell Research Same Sex Marriage Cloning This is enllightening to me.  I'm apathetic about marriage, same sex or otherwise (attention gays: be careful what you wish for), but I'm all for the other 80% of your list.  I can't comprehend, for example, why anyone would want to stand in the way of some of the most important medical advances ever by opposing stem cell research.  And my girlfriend's mother just died of brain cancer.  Euthanasia six months ago would have been merciful.  I'd like my plug pulled if and when I reach that level of suffering and indignity.  Last but not least, who can walk into a Walmart and not wish for more abortions?  :)  So, seriously, what do my beliefs make me in the eyes of Catholics?  And here I thought I was a pretty decent sort.

Kill all the babies that you want and harvest all the stem cells in the world, and it just may turn out to cure very little.

Quoted: this is for the Christians, or those who claim to be born again, Catholics too would be included in this can a Christian, or child of God actually vote for kerry and not be voting against what God would have us do?

No.

BigDozer66

Its sad that yall can't allow anyone to honestly disagree with you without casting aspersions on them.   I'm no longer a practicing Christian, but I do remember enough to know they will have to answer to God, not to you.   I believe the Bible has a thing or two to say about judgement and casting stones.

Have any of you ever heard of the concept of a loyal opposition?

Quoted: Quoted: this is for the christians, or those who claim to be born again, catholics too would be included in this Well that's mighty white of you...thanks. In answer to your question, any Christian that votes for a pro-abortion canidate should be ashamed of themselves.   Sgatr15

+1

Quoted: Have any of you ever heard of the concept of a loyal opposition?

Uh, yeah....

We killed a lot of them in Europe and the Pacific between 1941 and 1945....


I understand your point Dino, but there was a time in this country - certainly in my lifetime - where matters of morals and ethics did not divide the political parties. Both sides had a reverence for innocent human life and most were in general agreement as to what constituted American values.

Whether people will admit it or not, the moral issues that used to bind us together as a nation are now polarizing issues that divide us.

Quoted: there are alot of decent people in hell

Heaven for climate, Hell for company.

I'm pretty tired of bible-thumpers telling me I'll be tortured forever unless I do what they say the Supreme Being wants me to do

Whether people will admit it or not, the moral issues that used to bind us together as a nation are now polarizing issues that divide us.

Excellent point. To America's detriment, immorality is the new morality.

Quoted: Kill all the babies that you want and harvest all the stem cells in the world, and it just may turn out to cure very little.

Wow.  This is exactly the sort of authoritatively expressed ignorance that turned me away from organized religion.  The benefits of stem cell research aren't theoretical.  And no one has proposed that viable babies be sacrificed.  Do even a little reading and thinking on your own, instead of spouting what some priest tells you to spout.  The world would be a better place if they'd just stick to humping alter boys.

Quoted: Quoted: there are alot of decent people in hell Heaven for climate, Hell for company. I'm pretty tired of bible-thumpers telling me I'll be tortured forever unless I do what they say the Supreme Being wants me to do

doesn't change the truth though

Quoted: Quoted: Have any of you ever heard of the concept of a loyal opposition? Whether people will admit it or not, the moral issues that used to bind us together as a nation are now polarizing issues that divide us.

Oh you mean issues like slavery, immigration, racism, and the war in Veitnam?

Our country has always been dividided over some issue.   Once we get settled on abortion and gay marriage something else will be siezed on by one group that will piss off another.  

Quoted: there are alot of decent people in hell

last I checked judgement hasn't happened yet so everyone is lying sleeping in their graves waiting for the trumpet to sound.

Quoted: Its sad that yall can't allow anyone to honestly disagree with you without casting aspersions on them.   I'm no longer a practicing Christian, but I do remember enough to know they will have to answer to God, not to you.   I believe the Bible has a thing or two to say about judgement and casting stones. Have any of you ever heard of the concept of a loyal opposition?

In Scriptural terms, there is NO SUCH THING as a "loyal opposition" to God.

ALL opposition to God is the enemy of God. But God remains faithful to save even them, if they will repent and turn from their sin.

DISCLAIMER: NOT saying Kerry or anyone who votes for him is the enemy of God. Let their own works judge them. Not me.

Quoted: For Roman Catholics, there are five non-negotiable guides for picking a candidate: Abortion Euthanasia Stem Cell Research Same Sex Marriage Cloning Given this, I have no friggin idea how anyone calling themselves Catholic could vote for that lying traitor, Kerry. ETA this link: I give these out to anyone who tells me they are Catholic but like Kerry.

I coworker of mine is diehard Catholic. But he and his family, from parents on down, are all Democrats.

Four yrs ago he was all pissed at AlGore for recommending the "morning-after" abortion pill. Claimed Gore lost his vote.

But when W won my friend was sullen and grouchy for three weeks. You just know he went ahead and voted for AlGore anyway.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: there are alot of decent people in hell Heaven for climate, Hell for company. I'm pretty tired of bible-thumpers telling me I'll be tortured forever unless I do what they say the Supreme Being wants me to do doesn't change the truth though

Well, at least we agree on the unchanging nature of truth.  What is the church asking these days for their interpretations of the truth?  Is it still ten percent?  That's a bargain if the alternative is eternity in Hell.  Good thing God's representatives take personal checks, too.  That reminds me, I need to order a plastic Jesus for my dashboard from the Del Rio Discount House of Worship.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: there are alot of decent people in hell Heaven for climate, Hell for company. I'm pretty tired of bible-thumpers telling me I'll be tortured forever unless I do what they say the Supreme Being wants me to do doesn't change the truth though Well, at least we agree on the unchanging nature of truth.  What is the church asking these days for their interpretations of the truth?  Is it still ten percent?  That's a bargain if the alternative is eternity in Hell.  Good thing God's representatives take personal checks, too.  That reminds me, I need to order a plastic Jesus for my dashboard from the Del Rio Discount House of Worship.

whatever you think you need to do

Well, at least we agree on the unchanging nature of truth. What is the church asking these days for their interpretations of the truth? Is it still ten percent? That's a bargain if the alternative is eternity in Hell. Good thing God's representatives take personal checks, too.

Nice spin senator kerry. The truth is that tithing is completely voluntary and that money not only pays the bills but goes to fund church charity works.

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Being a Christian  really means that the Lord Jesus Christ is "Lord" of your life. You live according to His way's and follow His commands.

Having said that if you truly are a Christian it would be impossible for you to vote for Kerry and keep fellowship with your Lord.

Why, because if you're truly listening and asking your Lord what He would do and then obedient to that leading, Bush is the only choice.

Quoted: Quoted: Kill all the babies that you want and harvest all the stem cells in the world, and it just may turn out to cure very little. Wow.  This is exactly the sort of authoritatively expressed ignorance that turned me away from organized religion.  The benefits of stem cell research aren't theoretical.  And no one has proposed that viable babies be sacrificed.  Do even a little reading and thinking on your own, instead of spouting what some priest tells you to spout.  The world would be a better place if they'd just stick to humping alter boys.

Apparently you take your guidance from the leftist, amoral media in this country. Embyonic stem cell research is another step towards de-valuing human life.  It is not needed.  There are other ways to get stem cells without using unborn human beings.

And it's "ALTAR" boys not "alter".

Amazing how bigotry is so hard to hide for some people.

Quoted: Its sad that yall can't allow anyone to honestly disagree with you without casting aspersions on them.   I'm no longer a practicing Christian, but I do remember enough to know they will have to answer to God, not to you.   I believe the Bible has a thing or two to say about judgement and casting stones. Have any of you ever heard of the concept of a loyal opposition?

Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. Malachi 3:18

We are not supposed to judge one another but we are supposed to discern between Right and Wrong, Good and Evil.

Right after Jesus told them "He who is without sin cast the first stone." he told the woman to "Go and sin no more."

If you know it is wicked then you are not judging anything.
You have used you discernment (judgement) to say that it is wrong.

Right or Wrong? Which will you choose?

BigDozer66

Quoted: Its sad that yall can't allow anyone to honestly disagree with you without casting aspersions on them.   I'm no longer a practicing Christian, but I do remember enough to know they will have to answer to God, not to you.   I believe the Bible has a thing or two to say about judgement and casting stones.

Yep.  When Jesus said, "Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment." (John 7:24)

Have any of you ever heard of the concept of a loyal opposition?

Opposition to the standards set forth by God Himself is not "loyal."  It is rebellion and sin.  Hey, He said it, I didn't make it up.  If you have problems with that take it up with Him.

Quoted: Quoted: Kill all the babies that you want and harvest all the stem cells in the world, and it just may turn out to cure very little. Wow.  This is exactly the sort of authoritatively expressed ignorance that turned me away from organized religion.  The benefits of stem cell research aren't theoretical.  And no one has proposed that viable babies be sacrificed.  Do even a little reading and thinking on your own, instead of spouting what some priest tells you to spout.  The world would be a better place if they'd just stick to humping alter boys.

Hey asshat no body told me that.  Nor have I had a conversation with a priest about this.

From what I understand it has been exaggerated what stem cells can do.  Christopher Reeves would not have been able to walk again, Mike J. Fox will still have the shakes, and Regan was not going to get his memory back.

So how bout you just shut the FUCK UP!

Quoted: Quoted: there are alot of decent people in hell Heaven for climate, Hell for company. I'm pretty tired of bible-thumpers telling me I'll be tortured forever unless I do what they say the Supreme Being wants me to do

People who choose to go to Hell will not be tortured.
They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

BigDozer66

Quoted: can a christian, or child of God actually vote for kerry and not be voting against what God would have us do?

No.

Quoted: Wow.  This is exactly the sort of authoritatively expressed ignorance that turned me away from organized religion.  The benefits of stem cell research aren't theoretical.  And no one has proposed that viable babies be sacrificed.

Actually, the positive results in stem cell research are from adult and umbilical cord stem cells.  Embryonic stem cells have caused tumors when they've been used.  Maybe that's God's way of saying we shouldn't be looking at babies as a "parts" source.

Quoted: Quoted: Wow.  This is exactly the sort of authoritatively expressed ignorance that turned me away from organized religion.  The benefits of stem cell research aren't theoretical.  And no one has proposed that viable babies be sacrificed.   Actually, the positive results in stem cell research are from adult and umbilical cord stem cells.  Embryonic stem cells have caused tumors when they've been used.  Maybe that's God's way of saying we shouldn't be looking at babies as a "parts" source.

And Brohawk ain't Catholic, so I'm guessin' he didn't hear that from a Priest.

Personally, I think Kerry is an ass for how he is trying to spin he religion.  Noone can just leave their religious beliefs at the front door of their office when they go to work.  It is who you are and how you live.  

If my job required me to be in direct contradiction to the teachings and beliefs of my faith, I would find another job!!!

Quoted: And Brohawk ain't Catholic, so I'm guessin' he didn't hear that from a Priest.

I heard a couple of doctors discussing the issue on the radio.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Have any of you ever heard of the concept of a loyal opposition? Whether people will admit it or not, the moral issues that used to bind us together as a nation are now polarizing issues that divide us. Oh you mean issues like slavery, immigration, racism, and the war in Veitnam? Our country has always been dividided over some issue.   Once we get settled on abortion and gay marriage something else will be siezed on by one group that will piss off another.

Immigration and the war in Vietnam were not moral issues until some people tried to make them so. They are (were) foreign and domestic policy issues.

The reasoning for our involvement in Vietnam was not based on morality, per se,  but on geo-politics. The original moral impetus - if one could argue a moral impetus at all - was western democratic ideals and values vs. communism. America as a society was morally committed to defending these values as it began the Vietnam conflict. The moral divide occurred only when it became clear that the war was un-winable as it was being prosecuted. War always raises issues of moral interpretation, no matter how "just" the war is deemed to be. The real issue of that war was one of American resolve in the war against global communism. Should the US have waged a war of attrition? A war it did not intend to win outright? The issue was resolved without altering the fundamental moral fabric of American society. War did not stop as a result of our Vietnam experience. Neither did our resolve to oppose threats to American ideals. What did change was our approach to fighting wars.

Immigration is not a moral issue at all. It is a legal policy issue, a matter of US law. We in the United States have no moral obligation to open our borders to unrestricted immigration, no matter how deplorable the conditions may be in other countries. Do we have a moral obligation to help other nations who need our help? I can see where a moral arguement might be raised there. Again, the immigration issue does not alter the fundamental moral fabric of American society.

Slavery and racism can't really be viewed as seperate moral issues in America. One is a direct result of the other. Is it a moral issue? You bet. But is it an issue where the two opposing sides are going in opposite directions with such diametrically opposed moral positions as to make for a permanent impase? The answer in view of history has to be no. There is a clear basis for racial equality in American law and in traditional Christian based morality upon which much of American law is based. It is recognized that freedom and liberty is a natural state of man as given to him by God. Since our laws, and our bill of rights are based upon this premise, there can only be one moral interpretation of this. It has taken (and will continue to take) a long time before this is truly a fact of life in America, but as a moral truth it is inescapable.

Now take issues like abortion and gay marriage. There is clear cut faith based moral opposition to these two issues that can't be resolved without the abandonment of that underlying faith. Those who stand against these two issues have a compelling moral obligation to oppose them. They are commanded to do so as part of their moral beliefs. It is not negotiable without the violation of their beliefs. These two issues are clearly seperate from the issues you brought up because those with faith based moral positions are commanded to oppose them as part of their faith. The same cannot be said of the issues you raised above.  

Quoted: Hey asshat no body told me that.  Nor have I had a conversation with a priest about this. From what I understand it has been exaggerated what stem cells can do.  Christopher Reeves would not have been able to walk again, Mike J. Fox will still have the shakes, and Regan was not going to get his memory back. So how bout you just shut the FUCK UP!

"Asshat"??  I don't remember that one from the playground.

Why don't you take a short moment to tell us everything you know about stem cell research before you pontificate about it again.

P.S.  Why do I get the feeling you were an abused altar boy?

P.P.S.  My dad could beat up your dad.

Quoted: Quoted: I'm pretty tired of bible-thumpers telling me I'll be tortured forever unless I do what they say the Supreme Being wants me to do People who choose to go to Hell will not be tortured. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. BigDozer66

The nuances between being "tortured forever" and "tormented day and night for ever and ever" are lost on me.  

Quoted: Apparently you take your guidance from the leftist, amoral media in this country. Embyonic stem cell research is another step towards de-valuing human life.  It is not needed.  There are other ways to get stem cells without using unborn human beings. Amazing how bigotry is so hard to hide for some people.

I don't have a TV in my house, so I have to get my guidance from the leftist, amoral media on my car radio.  

If you re-read my post, it says "no one is proposing the sacrifice of viable babies".  I don't think we have a disagreement there.  Although I can think of a two year old I wouldn't mind selling for medical research.  (kidding! Just kidding!)

Does it seem like I'm trying to hide my "bigotry"?  I'll let Thomas Jefferson speak for me:  "It will be a great day when the last lawyer is strangled with the intestines of the last priest".  Oh, and I have wet dreams about napalm runs down streets in Fallujah.